Read ths about working with Law Enforcement

Started by flyguy06, January 25, 2006, 04:59:51 PM

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flyguy06

Hi,
This is not aimed at anyone on this board or any particuar Wing. I just wanted you all to see this is one reason many professionals do not take CAP seriously  or look to us as proessionals.

I frequent another message board for Law Enforcement officers in Aviation. I sked a qusetion wonderig how many of them worked with Civil Air Patrol. The response I got was not good.

       
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How many of you guys work with the Civil Air Patrol and what is that relationship like?
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CAFFERY
Member
Posts: 47
Registered: Jan 2000
  posted 01-22-2006 10:14 AM               
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Hi Mike,
Every time we have had dealings with the CAP it has been extremely poor. My experence at command centers where the CAP is located is.... they never want to share information, they want to control everything and act like a bunch of boy scouts who have been give a little authority... I had 3 diffenent law enforcment air units on location looking to assist in a search for a missing aircraft... the cowboy from CAP that was incharge told us to wait outside the building until all his people arrived and after he briefed his people and if he had time he would figure out if he need airborne law enforcement assistance........you can imagined what he told him...... we (the cops) put a quick plan together and within half an hour located the aircraft....and we did call the CAP commander and told him we had located the aircraft and it now was a crime scene and sealed by law enforcement.... and yes we did file a complaint with the CAP .... On another matter.... I can not understand why the CAP get lots of money to fly missions looking for marijuanna in our area and they never find a single plant..... law enforcement air units find marijaunna all the time and we have never gotten a dime...last year one of the CAP members had the nerve to call our unit asking for a tip on a grow so he could located it for CAP to help out their stats......
I could go on and on..... bottom line... we do not want anything to do with CAP cowboys..
Kevin


I hope this is an isolated occurance and not rampant throughout CAP, but to be honest, I see some of that same attitude on this board from beieve it or not cadets. Again, Not everyone. There are very professional folks on tis board like Pyon and Ecipse. I think they are serious about CAP and try to do the right thing al the time. We should all strve to do the right thing and realize we are not some elite fighting organiztion. We are a serice organization dedicated to helping and assiting others. Thank you.

NIN

Sadly, that's far too typical of a view.

I've heard (but not experienced) that years ago here in NH, CAP got a black eye in the SAR community for our inability to interface/play well with others.    Seems that the other SAR outfits got fed up with a perceived "OK, CAP's here, you all can go home now. We're on the job!" mentality.

Couple that with ground teams showing up to mountain search locations with insufficient equipment and clothing, and being perceived by the state agencies as "a 90-year old guy with 6 12-year old kids" (exaggerating just a bit, here), and you can understand why the state finally said "You know, you folks aren't worth the trouble" and now the Dept of Fish & Game is the "primary SAR agency" in our state.

I think the "works and plays well with others" angle is serious issue we need to address. Interoperability, etc.   Why do we run our SAREXes with an "incident commander?"  Shouldn't our forces be led by, say,  a "task force leader" or "strike team leader" instead when we're operating in conjunction with other agencies in ICS, particularly when another agency's IC is in charge?  No, we show up to an incident with our own complete ICS, to include IC, and duplicate the whole structure. 

Train the way you fight, right?  If we continually run our exercises with an IC, then we'll always default to the "our IC is in charge" way of thinking.   Exercise planners should take this into consideration.  Our "IC" may truly be a "task force leader" instead, and we should operate as such (including exercise inputs from a non-CAP IC, etc)



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

Man, do I wish I could say this was wrong, but we've screwed ourselves in IL, too.
ROMEOs and GOBs squaring off with IEMA and other agencies over silly matters
have all but removed us from coordinated plans.

That we continue to train as if CAP would ever be a lead agency in anything but pure CAP missions is laughable.  We will always be 2nd line and support.   This isnt' a skill issue, its the nature of our org - we're not paid to be sitting in an alert center, or be on patrol.  We call, we come ASAP, but we're not 911.

I emphasize this when I do ICS training, but mine is not the party line.

Our far-reaching plan here is to get trained and proficient and keep a low profile until we can present features and benefits to local agencies in a professional manner, then sit down and STFU until asked.

I would be lying if I said we weren't also waiting out the clock on some of these ROMEOs.


"That Others May Zoom"

flyguy06


footballrun21

There was recently a missing persons alert in my area.  We never got a call, so I don't know where the Seniors heard there was one.  One SM called the local state police (or someone like that) just to ask if they needed our help or whatever.  They said that they had ceased ground searches and were now doing this just in the air.  The police also said that they had no idea there was a CAP squadron around here.

Does this mean that they really didn't know, or did they just not want us on the mission.  We have worked with them before, so I don't think they would forget.  My squadron also is small and I know we haven't had bad relations with the police.  Could it be common knowledge for police around the nation that we don't work well with others?
C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing

Eclipse

 ;D

ROMEO = Real Old Men Eating Out

GOB = Good Old Boy

Sometimes written as:

GOBN = Good Old Boy Network  or GOBFC = Good Old Boy Flying Club

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: footballrun21 on January 25, 2006, 08:54:58 PM
There was recently a missing persons alert in my area.  We never got a call, so I don't know where the Seniors heard there was one.  One SM called the local state police (or someone like that) just to ask if they needed our help or whatever.  They said that they had ceased ground searches and were now doing this just in the air.  The police also said that they had no idea there was a CAP squadron around here.

Does this mean that they really didn't know, or did they just not want us on the mission.  We have worked with them before, so I don't think they would forget.  My squadron also is small and I know we haven't had bad relations with the police.  Could it be common knowledge for police around the nation that we don't work well with others?

Likely either common poor knowledge combined with no knowledge or forgetful local authorities.

Too many units try to establish their existence and capabilities when the poop is already in the fan.  These relationships should be cultivated ongoing and before bad things are happening. 

"That Others May Zoom"

flyguy06

Thanks Eclipse for the clarification. It helps when we use terms that we ALL can understand. Thanks.  ;D

fyrfitrmedic

 For the quarter-century of so that I've been in CAP, it seems that the organization has in many ways been content to exist in its own little bell jar and has never effectively marketed itself as an aid to outside agencies and other organizations.

There are exceptions here and there, but they seem few and far between.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

Eclipse

Its a top-down problem.

NHQ squanders our good will with the USAF and other military while not presenting any strategic mission to the organization as to what and how we should be doing.

Region and Wing Commanders do the same while failing to create relationships with local agencies who could use our help.

And then when we finally get into an EOC or invited to do something, blowhards who don't know their place wreck years of work in building up relationships, and are not held accountable for their shennaigans.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

#10
Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2006, 07:02:25 PM
Its a top-down problem.

NHQ squanders our good will with the USAF and other military while not presenting any strategic mission to the organization as to what and how we should be doing.

Region and Wing Commanders do the same while failing to create relationships with local agencies who could use our help.

And then when we finally get into an EOC or invited to do something, blowhards who don't know their place wreck years of work in building up relationships, and are not held accountable for their shennaigans.

I'll tell you what - when I'm at my unit meeting and surrounded by the goodwill and intentions of my very active members, my fires are lit and I want to get things done. But when I get into these boards and start to see the monumental problem facing us, with no one apparently capable or interested in making the hard choices to fix things, I'd just as soon as chuck the whole [darn] thing.

For me, I am closely involved in both ES and cadets, and it usually works out that just as my frustrations on the ES side reach a low point, I get a win on the cadet side and vice-versa.  And I am still afforded opportunities to do cool stuff and hang with great, like-minded people, so I'll be ok.

But I wonder sometimes how members who have a limited involvement stay engaged.
Without a balance of wins, I see members all the time who are constantly knocked back, or who are in units that don't do anything and have limted oportunities.

I appreciate their sticking around, but don't see how we keep them.

Mod Edit: Fixed a broken quote tag. --MK

"That Others May Zoom"

flyguy06

I can try to answer that as I come from an inactive squadron. Its about dedication and seeing the potential and always pressing on hoping to get better each time.

My Squadron is loacted in an inner city. It is an all african american squadron. Why do I mention that? You have to understand that in my community things like aviation and search and rescue are not emphasized. In my squadron, we focus on cadets. D and C. Things that are going to help them develop discipline and leadership traits. These are not bad kids. Whenever someone mentions inner city, the first presumption is wayward kids. These cadets come from good homes. Most of our senior members including myself are pilots and we want to build a solid aviation program for the cadets. We dont focus on ES because we dont have  any ES resources. And really, I, am the only one interested in ES and I get that through training with sister squadrons.  Our members just arent interseted in going to the woods. They want to fly and work with youths.

I have a serious dedication to youths. I grew up in CAP and I know its potential to develop storng leaders. ANd I want to spread that to young people in my community. Thats why I hold on every week with 4 cadets showing up to meetings. Senior members not being involved using meetings as a social get together. As long as I stay motivated and I can encourage one young person,then I am good with that. I had one young man in my squadron a few years ago. He went to college, did an internship in China and today he is a professor in Chinese studies. That is why I do it.

Every unit is differant and is run differantly. And thats ok. As I have read this board overthe past months, Isee a ot of people take CAP very very seriously.Its like a second job to them. Inmy community, its not like that. Most of my members see CAP as a thing they do intheir spare time when they get a chance. WHen I was in colleg, Iwas heavily into CAP. But now that I am a plice officer working 8 hour shifts, I just dont have the time to dedicate to CAP like I used to. used to be I was doing something CAP 3 of 4 weekends. now I am lucky if I can get one weekend a month to do CAP.

Xeno

#12
Funny you should ask, ARWG just assisted the Independence Co. Sherriffs office during a training op last week.

Excerpt from ARWG website: www.arwingcap.org

(January 12)  The 97th Composite Squadron  participated in an emergency response drill at the Batesville Regional Airport this evening that was organized by the Independence County Sheriffs Office.  The scenario involved a small plane that was hijacked in Missouri and landed in Batesville to obtain fuel, where the pilot activated his plane's emergency beacon.  First Lieutenant Jeremy Hudson responded to the simulated beacon signal and upon his approach to the plane saw the hijacker with a gun and retreated to the airport control tower.  Lt. Hudson then called squadron commander Lt. Col. David Todd who relayed information about the situation to authorities who carried out the law enforcement and emergency medical portions of the exercise.  Though this event was not typical of a normal CAP mission, members of the Arkansas Wing often participate in training designed to improve the capabilities of other local and state agencies. 



As far as I know, Our relation with law enforcement in Arkansas is good. We regularly participate in exercises and missions with them. I've never heard anything bad about one or the other from either side.
C/1st Lt. Josh Sims
C/CC SWR-AR-095

121.5 -- If you crash, we will dash...

Eclipse

Do what you can to maintain that relationship and foster others, because once you get on the wrong side of the coin, its hard to get back.

"That Others May Zoom"

Nathan

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2006, 04:59:51 PM
Hi,
This is not aimed at anyone on this board or any particuar Wing. I just wanted you all to see this is one reason many professionals do not take CAP seriously  or look to us as proessionals.

I frequent another message board for Law Enforcement officers in Aviation. I sked a qusetion wonderig how many of them worked with Civil Air Patrol. The response I got was not good.

[snippage]   


I hate to ask, but what was the location of this incident?
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

iowacap

#15
WOW! thats sad to hear. In iowa from what I have heard and in the works in the government we are going to be more involved with the National Gaurd in SAR. I will provide info as I hear it but we have recieved good complements with agencies in iowa that we work with and get good respect on camp dodge NGB and respect by active gaurdsmen

flyguy06

The post did not mention any names or locations

isuhawkeye

ia wg has an excellent relationship with lea.  we sit on committees together, we provide resources together, and we are even looking at training together.  it takes time, professionalism, and positave attitude.

KyCAP

Hint:

There should be good "information" in next edition of Volunteer to share with your Law Enforcement agencies.   Look for White House and Kentucky Wing...

Sorry, can't spoil it (or confirm it will be printed).
Maj. Russ Hensley, CAP
IC-2 plus all the rest. :)
Kentucky Wing

flyerthom

I know I was very reluctant to join CAP originally. I had an extremely bad interaction with CAP working as an EMT during a ground search. When I moved to NV and I was looking for a volunteer opportunity CAP seemed to be the only thing I had an interest. It's turned out to be a great experience. Had I followed my previous experience though I would not have bothered.
TC

mikeylikey

I read Pennsylvania is a charter member of the Nations first Regional Joint Readiness Center.  The RJRC is a mix of military (mostly Air Force), DoD, hospitals and FEMA.  They specifically wrote into the charter signed by President Bush last year that CAP would be the "fifth wheel".  The new organization will provide quick response to disasters (like Katrina), and CAP will not have to wait for National or the AF to issue a mission number, but will take off with the group from the RJRC.
  It seems that the Northeast Region is seriously moving forward in creating ties with state emergency management agencies and other Federal Agencies.  It is a shame to read of the problems CAP members are creating with other organizations.  I reccomend that if anyone notices a CAP member making a fool out of themselves or jeopardizing a working relationship, pull that member aside and give them a good kick in the pants.  Better to save face with the Government agencies than have CAP look like the "Boyscouts".
What's up monkeys?