National Board Agenda

[CAP_truth]

I think that the enlisted grade member should be in a separate membership class like the "general Aviation Membership" we had in the 70's & 80's. A new training program should be established with TIG and Specialty Training. A RM transition into program from RM to CAP.

[winterg]

Just my two cents on the enlisted discussion.  Hate to keep hashing away at it, but here goes.  Feel free to flame away. 

I have never agreed that we take anyone off the street and, with little or no training, instruction and/or indoctrination into our organization, put some lieutenants bars on them and call them an "officer".  But that issue is neither here nor there for this thread!

Why reinvent the wheel when it comes to a senior member enlisted progression program.  We already have a structured professional development program with established requirements.  Keep the requirements the same.  Let's face it, most of the training we do has no resemblance to an officer school anyway.

Level 1: SrA
Level 2: SSgt
Level 3: TSgt
Level 4: MSgt
Level 5: SMSgt

Not sure how I would work CMSgt's in there, maybe a time thing or promoted to that rank based on position held?  Thoughts?

I know this is going to be the part I probably get the most flak for, require a college degree to enter the officer track.  It only makes sense.  College does not necessarily make a person smarter, but hey, Look at a lot of RM officers! lol jk.  This makes the officer track actually mean something other than that you paid your dues.  Require some form of officer schooling for "appointment" to officer grade.  Maybe use the National Guard correspondence course.  Most importantly, there should be a "trained" officer corps to lead.  Appointed or not.

A person who comes into CAP with previous military experience would start at the equivalent rank in CAP but just as we do now, you would be required to "catch up" on PD training if that person wanted to promote further.  Any officers who comes into CAP would obviously do the same.

An issue I thought of is, what do you do in a squadron that does not have a member who qualifies for officer.  My answer to that is, most squadrons should be flights anyway and could be headed by a Flight Sargent or if an officer is available, Flight Commander.

I know most won't like my idea that officers should be college graduates.  But it is usually the benchmark in RM and civilian organization that most oftens separates the rank and file from leadership positions.  Just my two cents.

[jb512]

Just my two cents on the enlisted discussion.  Hate to keep hashing away at it, but here goes.  Feel free to flame away. 

Sounds like a good start to me.  And, keep the Flight Officer grades around for pilots without degrees and/or other positions normally held by officers.

[mikeylikey]

I have never agreed that we take anyone off the street and, with little or no training, instruction and/or indoctrination into our organization, put some lieutenants bars on them and call them an "officer".  But that issue is neither here nor there for this thread!

But you want to put some stripes on a person that never "earned" them either. 

Rank in CAP shows Pro Development attainment and time in.......nothing more, nothing less. 

I wouldn't mind getting rid of rank once and for all for EVERYONE!!!

[winterg]

I have never agreed that we take anyone off the street and, with little or no training, instruction and/or indoctrination into our organization, put some lieutenants bars on them and call them an "officer".  But that issue is neither here nor there for this thread!

But you want to put some stripes on a person that never "earned" them either. 

Rank in CAP shows Pro Development attainment and time in.......nothing more, nothing less. 

I wouldn't mind getting rid of rank once and for all for EVERYONE!!!

Getting rid of rank would never work in an "Auxiliary" of the USAF.  I almost think it's necessary.  If a person wants to do SAR without the "military" structure, there's plenty of other organizations.  If they like working with kids, there's plenty of those as well.  And, no, I'm not telling you to quit! lol  And as for earning the stripes, I never said that.  My comment was meant to infer that we need to completely overhaul our system and how we attain rank.  And IMHO, the more we pattern ourselves after the traditions, values, structure, and such of our parent organization, the better.

[John Bryan]

I don't think we could go all golf shirt / flying club...we need uniforms and structure....I mean even the fire dept has that.

As for an Auxiliary without grade.....the USCG Auxiliary members have no "grade" or "rank" and it works for them.

btw....I don't think we should change I just wanted to throw the USCG Aux model out there for discussion.

[MIKE]

As for an Auxiliary without grade.....the USCG Auxiliary members have no "grade" or "rank" and it works for them.

Not really.

[billford1]

The best way not to screw CAP up more is to leave things alone. If you want people to show up and do work as unpaid volunteers it helps to make them feel like they belong. When they've been there a while and worked to achieve milestones the grade advancement is meaningful even if only symbolic. If an arbitrary decision is made to take the grade structure away it will be a wonder if there's anybody left in the senior program.

[tkelley004]

CAP NCO's can get promoted now... to 2nd Lt! :clap:

This program exists for one reason, to allow former military NCO's to keep their chevrons if they wish.  It should not be to allow the guy who never made it past E4 to become an E9

You forget that E8 and E9 are limited to 3% of the enlisted force, (E9 being 1%) Lot more Lt Col's running around the Air Force than CMSgts!
2008 stats from the AFA  Lt Col 9,940 CMSgt 2,709  BTW Col 3, 406 and SMSgt are 5,193.

If I had my way this would be changed to only "Top 3" Can't see the need for and former E4 or E5 to be that in love with holding NCO grade that a move to 2Lt is a bad thing.

Bottom line, unless we change our officer program (require more than 6 months breathing, 21 birthdays, and an on-line course you can't fail)
The CAP NCO program does not need "promotions" and in fact having folks put on E9 insignia (and we know some will wear the uniform badly) would only draw the focus of a group of folks we don't need unhappy with CAP

[DNall]

The NCO issue is a national board item. It's appropriate to discuss here.

The proposed item states promotions as a CAP NCO would be based on CAP training. It does not begin execution of NCO promotions. It asks for: 1) general approval of the concept; 2) authorization to develop the specific progression for later approval; and, 3) guidance on non-prior service personnel being eligible. I strongly support that item.

I would also note that this can serve as a foundation for fixing our jacked up grade system. IF you have both an enlisted progression/promotion system, AND the option for adult members to go officer or enlisted... THEN you have the opportunity to establish higher standards for officership, because there is an alternative. That's a huge great thing. It may take a long time to fix things, but this is the way to do it.

Bottom line, unless we change our officer program (require more than 6 months breathing, 21 birthdays, and an on-line course you can't fail)
The CAP NCO program does not need "promotions" and in fact having folks put on E9 insignia (and we know some will wear the uniform badly) would only draw the focus of a group of folks we don't need unhappy with CAP

I agree completely that the standards for 2LT are ridiculous. That brings a whole lot of unwanted negative attention. I would much prefer a system when officer grade is extended to people with some experience, legitimate qualifications, and recommendation from their chain, who then choose to do some real training on how to be a leader/manager - roughly on par of what's expected from any entry level reserve component officer. Our problem organizationally is we call everyone an officer, but everyone does enlisted duties and we train literally no one to function as even a 2LT at any level of our organization. NCOs are VERY capable people that can accomplish a whole lot, but the system breaks down without that officer role.

And for those that think grade is meaningless or even has no place in CAP... I disagree with you, but that's a seperate issue. The fact is you can remove the military titles & apply the same ldrshp/mgmt structure over any successful mid-size or larger business & the functions are exactly the same. We're trying to run a full org top to bottom with only a training program for the mail room, but using titles all the way up to CEO. That just doesn't work.