National Board Agenda

[CAP_truth]

Found this link to the national board agenda.

http://www.cap.gov/visitors/events/2007_cap_annual_conference/national_board_business_agenda.cfm

[dwb]

Looks like they have a lot of new business to discuss.

[TankerT]

Looks like they have a lot of new business to discuss.

It's in invisible ink.  You have to send in 10 box tops to get the pen that reveals the secret message!

[IceNine]

Last I checked their are some real membership affecting issues to be dealt with. First thing that pops into mind Vanguard

Its almost like the NB members are afraid to rattle the cage and work on real issues.

But then again, I haven't ever seen one of these meetings so I don't know what the taboo items are and such.

[ThorntonOL]

It looks like a fill in the blank sheet for all the new business that comes up, which they all should have already done but who knows?

[jb512]

Let's look at agenda item 20.  Yes, I know that the NCO thing has been hashed out many times, but I wish they'd pull from you guys who are there now for their guidance.

I don't have any problem with CAP NCO promotions, but with strict limitations since that's the only group we have with any military and/or strict guidelines.  I think that at a minimum you should have been through RM basic and Tech school, AIT, whatever to be eligible.  Come in at your military rank even if it's below NCO, and then provide some form of mirror to RM development courses for the stripes.

Just my two cents.

[Capt Rivera]

Come in at your military rank even if it's below NCO, and then provide some form of mirror to RM development courses for the stripes.

mirror? I'm fine with military members keeping their current rank. CAP can NOT promote a military member beyond the military rank they currently hold. That is not acceptable.

There is NO way someone should be say... a SrA in the AF and a SSgt etc in CAP! They should only ever be able to be what they are currently in the military(or lower), if they don't like that, they should take the officer ranks....

I do think that if CAP is to allow someones military promotions to be reflected in CAP there should be additional things. IE: They need to complete more then level one! Beyond that... in order to make SSgt (E5) and beyond, they should be a minimal level 2 completed... etc...  [maybe not that exact progression, but something.

Basically:
- just because you advanced in the mil does not mean you should advance in CAP. --Advancement in CAP should be earned with CAP knowledge.
-If you choose to wear enlisted rank, you can't wear a enlisted rank in CAP that you have not already earned in the military.
-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

[SarDragon]

That doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical situation: Joe Schmuckatelli and I are both AD USAF, in the same AFSC.

If I join CAP as an AD E-6, I can wear TSgt stripes. If Joe joins as an E-5, he gets to wear SSgt stripes. When he has promoted to E-6 on AD, he will have completed the same requirements that I did.

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

[jb512]

Come in at your military rank even if it's below NCO, and then provide some form of mirror to RM development courses for the stripes.

mirror? I'm fine with military members keeping their current rank. CAP can NOT promote a military member beyond the military rank they currently hold. That is not acceptable.

There is NO way someone should be say... a SrA in the AF and a SSgt etc in CAP! They should only ever be able to be what they are currently in the military(or lower), if they don't like that, they should take the officer ranks....

I do think that if CAP is to allow someones military promotions to be reflected in CAP there should be additional things. IE: They need to complete more then level one! Beyond that... in order to make SSgt (E5) and beyond, they should be a minimal level 2 completed... etc...  [maybe not that exact progression, but something.

Basically:
- just because you advanced in the mil does not mean you should advance in CAP. --Advancement in CAP should be earned with CAP knowledge.
-If you choose to wear enlisted rank, you can't wear a enlisted rank in CAP that you have not already earned in the military.
-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

That is a valid opinion.  There is the argument that if we're giving people officer rank with no RM experience, then why not give them enlisted rank too.  You say that we should not promote people beyond their RM rank, yet look at our officers.

It's a jacked up system as it is, so someone needs to come along and fix it.  I apprecitate the fact that we have one, but if it served our needs then there wouldn't be so many threads trying to get things changed.

[jb512]

That doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical situation: Joe Schmuckatelli and I are both AD USAF, in the same AFSC.

If I join CAP as an AD E-6, I can wear TSgt stripes. If Joe joins as an E-5, he gets to wear SSgt stripes. When he has promoted to E-6 on AD, he will have completed the same requirements that I did.

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If anyone joins, and/or subsequently completes requirements for a certain grade in CAP, then they should be able to attain it in CAP.

[Cecil DP]

Come in at your military rank even if it's below NCO, and then provide some form of mirror to RM development courses for the stripes.

mirror? I'm fine with military members keeping their current rank. CAP can NOT promote a military member beyond the military rank they currently hold. That is not acceptable.

There is NO way someone should be say... a SrA in the AF and a SSgt etc in CAP! They should only ever be able to be what they are currently in the military(or lower), if they don't like that, they should take the officer ranks....




I do think that if CAP is to allow someones military promotions to be reflected in CAP there should be additional things. IE: They need to complete more then level one! Beyond that... in order to make SSgt (E5) and beyond, they should be a minimal level 2 completed... etc...  [maybe not that exact progression, but something.

Basically:
- just because you advanced in the mil does not mean you should advance in CAP. --Advancement in CAP should be earned with CAP knowledge.
-If you choose to wear enlisted rank, you can't wear a enlisted rank in CAP that you have not already earned in the military.
-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

So if I decide to forgo my current CAP grade of LtCol to be a SMSGT, I shouldn't ever have the opportunity to advance, despite havng met all the requirements to be a LtCol and having held that grade for close to  20 years.

[SarDragon]

That doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical situation: Joe Schmuckatelli and I are both AD USAF, in the same AFSC.

If I join CAP as an AD E-6, I can wear TSgt stripes. If Joe joins as an E-5, he gets to wear SSgt stripes. When he has promoted to E-6 on AD, he will have completed the same requirements that I did.

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If anyone joins, and/or subsequently completes requirements for a certain grade in CAP, then they should be able to attain it in CAP.

Sorry, I left out a quote:

-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

I was addressing that particular statement.

[jb512]

That doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical situation: Joe Schmuckatelli and I are both AD USAF, in the same AFSC.

If I join CAP as an AD E-6, I can wear TSgt stripes. If Joe joins as an E-5, he gets to wear SSgt stripes. When he has promoted to E-6 on AD, he will have completed the same requirements that I did.

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If anyone joins, and/or subsequently completes requirements for a certain grade in CAP, then they should be able to attain it in CAP.

Sorry, I left out a quote:

-- just because you got promoted in the mil, does not warrant an automatic promotion in CAP. there needs to be requirements that the progress in the senior member professional development program.

I was addressing that particular statement.

Well you guys could answer that better than I could.  To me, RM rank supercedes CAP rank. The PME and such are much more stringent in the RM so why wouldn't we honor someone's rank?  I understand there are CAP specific requirements, but we already promote officers just on the basis of their RM rank so why not enlisted...

I think I'm beating the horse.

[mikeylikey]

Well you guys could answer that better than I could.  To me, RM rank supercedes CAP rank. The PME and such are much more stringent in the RM so why wouldn't we honor someone's rank?  I understand there are CAP specific requirements, but we already promote officers just on the basis of their RM rank so why not enlisted...

hmmm....we do honor RM rank in CAP.  If you are enlisted and you get promoted on AD/RES/NG then you can apply for a promotion in CAP.  Same is true for Officers.  If you come in as a CAPT in CAP because you happen to be an Army Captain, and you make Major say two years later, you can apply for CAP Major. 

As a side note.....I never once used my "RM" rank for a special promotion.  I promote in CAP with TIG just like most other members.  I have however used my PME for Region Staff College credit though!  So I agree with you there that most schools in the military are a step above what CAP offers currently.  But I have a feeling we shall see some changes in CAP Schools within the next year. 

[Capt Rivera]

If he had completed those requirements prior to joining CAP, he could join as a TSgt. Why shouldn't he get that promotion if he joins CAP as an E-5 and subsequently becomes an AD E-6?

What would be the incentive to go to CLC etc.... things learned in CLC and other CAP specific trainings can't be gained through RM PME. Yes I know foundations are repeated, (ORM, communication model etc) I'm just referring to learning the CAP corporate structure and operating outside of the squadron setting.

Not all, but the majority wont go through the SM professional development program if they don't get a reward for it

[mikeylikey]

^ Agree.....the reward for SLS and CLC participation is credit toward Promotion.  Some members come to CAP as Automatic Captains or Majors and if I am not mistaken only have to make up CLC and SLS if they want to promote past that, many do not. 

I think it should be required that SLS and CLC be completed during the members first year.  This is where the new members are supposed to learn about the Squadron and Corporation, and in conjunction with the CAP Officer Course (AFIADL 13) gain the knowledge to make great CAP members.  CAP is totally different than the military (apples and oranges again, although tasty, have their own distinct flavor).  Now, seeing the course work for Region Staff College I can say without a doubt that some advanced military PME courses can take the place of attending RSC.  Heck, a new Officer in any branch of the military learns most if not all the material taught at RSC during their pre-commissioning source schooling or immediately following at an Officer Basic type course.

Don't worry though.....there are huge plans to rework the CAP PRO DEV within the next year.  It will create a totally new program that is on par with PME courses offered by the military.  Some will embrace it, while others will hate it and probably quit.   

[Eclipse]

So if I decide to forgo my current CAP grade of LtCol to be a SMSGT, I shouldn't ever have the opportunity to advance, despite havng met all the requirements to be a LtCol and having held that grade for close to  20 years.

Correct.  You know the score when you make the choice.

Repeating now...there is NO ENLISTED PROGRAM IN CAP.  Members with stripes are simply choosing to wear their equivalent grade from a compensated military service with no commensurate privileges, authority, duties, or progression.

Say what you want about CAP grade, but their is a mature PD program in place that moves you through training and progression.

Until that occurs w/ "enlisted" grades, you pick a track and live with it.  If you choose to wear your stripes, fine.  You'll be a xSgt when you retire from CAP, unless you choose to jump to an officer track, which then means you start at SMWOG, even with 10 years in (with the exception for equivalences for enlisted NCO grades).

As we've discussed about 1.2738 million times, the whole idea is silly.  NCO's don't bring anything special with their stripes that CAP >needs<, this idea that the NCO is the guardian of the "working military" and have all this "groud-level" experience is all fine and well in the caste system which is the reality of compensated military services.

It doesn't exist in CAP.  Colonels and Generals empty the trash and go for pizza the same as a SrA would, and this idea that the stripes somehow buy you double-digit mojo "just because" doesn't hold much water either, because the majority of people in CAP don't even "get" why being an NCO is such a big deal - they only know about grade and rank from the movies, and they only know that even though you have 7 stripes, you still have to salute the yahoo 21 year old 2d Lt who just joined.

Those of us who >do< understand the weight and meaning of those stripes are still frustrated because while you may have vast and extensive military service and experience to offer, for whatever reason you have chosen to divorce your selves from >our< program, which doesn't speak well to your understanding of CAP, or a volunteer environment in general.

Its pretty hard to speak with credibility about progression and training when you yourself have chosen not to play in our pool.

[mikeylikey]

Its pretty hard to speak with credibility about progression and training when you yourself have chosen not to play in our pool.

You Sir are correct!  There is an established Officer Professional Development System in place and has been in place for many years.  NCO's that want to stay an NCO does so knowing they are not playing "in our pool" (I liked that one).  I also hate how everytime the proposal is brought up for an NCO Corps in CAP, we hear phrases like "I work for a living", "We are real military", etc. etc. etc.  I am getting sick of it.  I work just as hard in the military (and more so) than any NCO.  I have greater responsibilities, commitments, least of which is making sure the welfare of my NCO's are taken care of.  Nothing against enlisted folks, they work very hard too, but the differences between being Commissioned and Noncommissioned are vast.  In fact, if we are going to create a new NCO Corps in CAP, why not create a "RM" Commissioned Corps in CAP.  What does the NCO bring to CAP, that I did not?  Heck, I brought my CAP Cadet experience, my ROTC experience, four overseas tours beginning in 2003, I sit on countless boards (one being an Academy entrance board), I have written published articles, I have graduate degrees out my but and I consider myself to be one awesome tactician in the game of Stratego (buy it, it is a real good board game!!).

I just don't understand the desire not to play the CAP game as intended??  If this does work out and an NCO corps is created, do I get to bust the Sgt who fails to salute me thinking I am "just a CAP Officer, with no "RM" experience".  Will I have to start introducing myself to CAP NCO's as "Army Captain Mike, CAP Captain too"   

[flyguy06]

wow, this was a thread about the national Board agenda, but it turned into a thread about being an NCO, so let me bring it back around.

I liked the item about letting service members deployed extend their membership until they get back. I know when I was in Iraq I renewd online when I had the chance, but I know other folks OPTEMPO may be wher ethey may not be able to do that, so I like that suggestion.

[mikeylikey]

^ What do you think about the Volunteer Ribbon for Officers?  Or about the price break for Cadets that transition to Senior Members??