No CAP ATVs or Golf carts (New CAPR 77-1)

Started by N Harmon, July 24, 2008, 01:35:06 PM

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♠SARKID♠

#40
July 31, 2008, 12:40:25 AM
Okay, in classic SARKID style I've illustrated this situation (and my distaste for it) in a humorous flash animation.  As always, enjoy.

http://resdon111.googlepages.com/ATV.swf

N Harmon

#41
July 31, 2008, 01:17:36 AM
QuoteBut our target is on the other side of that mountain range! How do we get there?

Hike in there. Or, the IC can contact AFRCC and attempt to get helicopter assistance to insert the ground team, or a 4x4 asset, or a mounted SAR team, or whatever else that might be available. This might be an operational limitation that we need a better solution for than expecting CAP members to provide safe and well-maintained ATVs.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

JohnKachenmeister

#42
July 31, 2008, 02:20:29 AM
Quote from: N Harmon on July 31, 2008, 01:17:36 AM
QuoteBut our target is on the other side of that mountain range! How do we get there?

Hike in there. Or, the IC can contact AFRCC and attempt to get helicopter assistance to insert the ground team, or a 4x4 asset, or a mounted SAR team, or whatever else that might be available. This might be an operational limitation that we need a better solution for than expecting CAP members to provide safe and well-maintained ATVs.

Or... we could haul in ATV's sling-loaded under the "CAP Blackhawks" that the British news story on the Fossett search said we used.
Another former CAP officer

DNall

#43
July 31, 2008, 02:22:44 AM
Do we really have a force that's capable of "hiking in there?" Obviously there are people that can, but you know very well that a whole lot of CAP GTs are not capable of walking too far from the van. Unfortunately, we have a lot of operational limitations that need to be addressed. With that as our foundation, it's rather reasonable to expect NHQ to be overzealous with the risk mgmt trying to keep us out of court & the insurance rates down.

N Harmon

#44
July 31, 2008, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: DNall on July 31, 2008, 02:22:44 AMDo we really have a force that's capable of "hiking in there?"

And that is a good point. If our GT can't hike in there, then you shouldn't send them in via ATV because if the ATVs run out of gas or break down then you will have effectively created more victims that need to be rescued.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

SAR-EMT1

#45
August 02, 2008, 07:49:04 AM
Quote from: N Harmon on July 31, 2008, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: DNall on July 31, 2008, 02:22:44 AMDo we really have a force that's capable of "hiking in there?"

And that is a good point. If our GT can't hike in there, then you shouldn't send them in via ATV because if the ATVs run out of gas or break down then you will have effectively created more victims that need to be rescued.

Second
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

hatentx

#46
August 02, 2008, 11:14:51 PM
So I see everyone point about needing them and such but on the Average how often would they be used?  How often does a GT go out and find it is not just some airplane on the flight line?  Now I understand that there are the cases and locations that would need them more than other so couldnt a better fix than out lawing them be to make them a Group or wing asset and if a GT needs them after specific criteria is meet the the Level of Authority owning the Vehicles be able to deploy them.  We bounce Aircraft around enough why wouldnt it be a smarter idea there.  Then on the insurance side of things we would have that Group or Wing be able to facilitate the safety course and such with the insurance company to see what is required to effective manage this asset.  Just my $.02

♠SARKID♠

#47
August 02, 2008, 11:36:57 PM
Quote from: hatentx on August 02, 2008, 11:14:51 PM
So I see everyone point about needing them and such but on the Average how often would they be used?  How often does a GT go out and find it is not just some airplane on the flight line?  Now I understand that there are the cases and locations that would need them more than other so couldnt a better fix than out lawing them be to make them a Group or wing asset and if a GT needs them after specific criteria is meet the the Level of Authority owning the Vehicles be able to deploy them.  We bounce Aircraft around enough why wouldnt it be a smarter idea there.  Then on the insurance side of things we would have that Group or Wing be able to facilitate the safety course and such with the insurance company to see what is required to effective manage this asset.  Just my $.02

Wavelength; we share it.

Senior

#48
August 17, 2008, 07:38:48 PM
What is the info on the FLWG incident?

What happened at APJOC and a bus?

Major Lord

#49
August 17, 2008, 08:49:03 PM Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 09:58:00 PM by MIKE
Quote from: Senior on August 17, 2008, 07:38:48 PMWhat happened at APJOC and a bus?

The brakes failed on an AF bus, driven by an AF driver,  causing it to rear end a civilian vehicle. This resulted in a number of minor injuries, boo-boos, and owwies. The students were enroute to go "indoor skydiving" when this occured.

Major Lord

Tags - MIKE
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

PHall

#50
August 17, 2008, 11:29:42 PM
Okay guys, here's one for ya!

At the California Wing Encampment the photographer (a senior member) used his personal Segway to get around.
He wore a helmet and the MP's on post didn't have a problem with it.
Of course, this was the first Segway on post, so they were in the dark too.

So, was it legal to use this at a CAP activity?

Please back up your answers with reg cites please.

MIKE

#51
August 17, 2008, 11:47:41 PM
Was he wearing a reflective vest on post?
Mike Johnston

PHall

#52
August 18, 2008, 02:05:10 AM
Quote from: MIKE on August 17, 2008, 11:47:41 PM
Was he wearing a reflective vest on post?

Yes he was. 

The best our Safety Officer (an Active Duty Navy Senior Chief) could come up with was wear the same stuff you wear while riding a motorcycle.

hatentx

#53
August 18, 2008, 02:59:39 AM
Quote from: MIKE on August 17, 2008, 11:47:41 PM
Was he wearing a reflective vest on post?


Ahh the annoying PPE stuff all over the military.  I am glad CAP hasnt caught on to all of that yet.  I know there is some but when I have to wear balistic eye pro to go shower that is crossing the line.

MIKE

#54
August 18, 2008, 03:08:30 AM
Quote from: hatentx on August 18, 2008, 02:59:39 AMI know there is some but when I have to wear balistic eye pro to go shower that is crossing the line.

You forgot the non-conductive over-garment.  >:D
Mike Johnston

hatentx

#55
August 18, 2008, 03:17:29 AM
Quote from: MIKE on August 18, 2008, 03:08:30 AM
Quote from: hatentx on August 18, 2008, 02:59:39 AMI know there is some but when I have to wear balistic eye pro to go shower that is crossing the line.

You forgot the non-conductive over-garment.  >:D

Oh yeah and my power ranger bet (reflective belt)  so I can be seen in the day time while I am in a combat zone wearing ACUs.  The sun is seriously 15 ft above your head.  We can see everything but Bin-Ladin

lordmonar

#56
August 18, 2008, 03:25:07 AM
Quote from: PHall on August 17, 2008, 11:29:42 PM
Okay guys, here's one for ya!

At the California Wing Encampment the photographer (a senior member) used his personal Segway to get around.
He wore a helmet and the MP's on post didn't have a problem with it.
Of course, this was the first Segway on post, so they were in the dark too.

So, was it legal to use this at a CAP activity?

Please back up your answers with reg cites please.

Prior to this regulation....yes....after it gets into a gray area of intent vs letter of the law.

As a wing level event...the segway could be allowed just as golf carts and gators are allowed.

This is obviously a knee jerk reaction that is going to cause a lot of willful disobediance....I know here in Las Vegas we have a golf cart we let the FLS use to run about the airport.....NOT CADETS.....it was donated to the squadron....by regulation we should give it away/sell it/trash it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RiverAux

#57
August 18, 2008, 05:32:08 AM
QuoteAs a wing level event...the segway could be allowed just as golf carts and gators are allowed.
I'm sure you meant just as golf carts and gators were allowed.

lordmonar

#58
August 18, 2008, 05:36:59 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on August 18, 2008, 05:32:08 AM
QuoteAs a wing level event...the segway could be allowed just as golf carts and gators are allowed.
I'm sure you meant just as golf carts and gators were allowed.

So...still allowed

Quotee. Any special vehicle requests that fall outside the Vehicle Requirements and Allowance Standards (Attachment 2) must be adequately justified and submitted with the wing's yearly corporate vehicle request.

1) Golf cart type utility vehicles (internal combustion or electric) may be authorized for use at wing-level, region-level or national-level activities by the commander at such level on an individual activity basis. The commander may delegate this authority (e.g. to the vice, chief of staff, or transportation officer.)

All you got to do is get your wing king to okay it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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