No CAP ATVs or Golf carts (New CAPR 77-1)

[lordmonar]

Also, if they were going to update the reg then why didn't they change the language on the CAP seal to reflect the MAJCOM thing a ma bob (ok so it's late) decal on Corporate Owned Vehicles?

When they changed the insignia on the vehicles....they did not change the seals on our letter head.  The old round CAP USAF AUX seal is still our offical seal and should still be on our letter head and regulations.

[♠SARKID♠]

Cadets are not authorized to operate any ATV type vehicle.

Ya know what really grinds my gears?  Not putting thought into safety precautions.  I'll bet a sizeable portion of my left leg that there are many cadets with more riding experience/that have taken a safety course than seniors.  A blanket ban on it is just overkill.  Safety regulations are already in place to prevent the use of ATVs by people who are too young - they're called state laws.

[arajca]

As has been stated many time before - policies are not written for the exceptional. They're written for the majority. The vast majority of cadets (and seniors) have zero experience riding/driving atv's, etc.

From a commercial standpoint: I work at a ski resort (no, I can't get CAP members free tickets, I've already tried it). Every year I have to qualify on a snowmobile to operate one on the mountain. The only time I use one is at  work. Everyone who operates a snowmobile on the mountain has to go through the same qualification - including those who run them every weekend in far more rugged terrain than the ski mountain. If you haven't been signed off, you don't operate a snowmobile on the mountain, regardless of your experience. Why? Say it with me ... L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y. 

The same philosophy applies here.

[mikeylikey]

Did anyone actually read the changes??  All they said was CAP can not own these machines, but we can still ride in them at Activities (read Hawk MTN, Blue Beret....etc.etc.etc.)

[2LTShawDSQ307]

?

[KyCAP]

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/189-00/515.pdf

Survey says... Wrong answer.  ATV's are HEAVILY regulated by State law in KY.  Above link is reference to the law.  One coming to KY should read it or plan to meet local law enforcement.

[2LTShawDSQ307]

?

[KyCAP]

XX

Survey Says Wrong Answer..

The KRS is the Ky Revised Statute.  It is the "law" of the land in Ky since 1942.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Revised_Statutes

[KyCAP]

Here's a link to all state ATV laws.

http://www.offroaders.com/atv/ATV-Laws.html

I didn't get a chance to click on them all to see if there is supporting law.. I ahve to go back to work.

[jimmydeanno]

Here are NH's:

http://www.atvsafety.gov/state/newhampshire.html

State Laws:
All ATV operators and passengers under 18 must wear a helmet and all operators under 18 must wear eye protection at all times.
All ATVs over 95 cc in engine size must be registered, with the owner receiving a license plate for the ATV.
Registration is to be renewed once every year.
No one under 18 can register an ATV.
No one under 18 operating an ATV shall carry passengers at any time.
Any person over 12 must have a safety certificate or a motor vehicle license to ride off their own property.
Any person under 14 must be supervised by an adult over 18 when off their own property.
ATV use on public roads and highways is prohibited, except to cross these roads.
No ATV shall be operated without a lighted headlight and taillight from ½ hour after sunset to ½ hour before sunrise.

If you want the long drawn out legislation: http://www.atvsafety.gov/legislation/NewHampshireLaw.pdf

But there are very much age restrictions and ability level requirements.  The motorcycle license and safety course require proof of skill before issuance in the form of a driving exam.


I think this is the link that the above poster meant to link for "all" laws: http://www.atvsafety.gov/legislation/legislation.html

[TankerT]

I'll bet a sizeable portion of my left leg that there are many cadets with more riding experience/that have taken a safety course than seniors. 

Two things.

1- Experience does not equate to being responsible or making good decisions.
2- Lawers and Insurance probably have more to do with these decisions than anything.

Remember - Cadets = Minors.  (Even if you are 20, you're still considered a minor by the corporation... and that affects things like insurance... liability... etc...)

[KyCAP]

Looks like 2LTShawDSQ601 withdraws to ?

[John Bryan]

I'll bet a sizeable portion of my left leg that there are many cadets with more riding experience/that have taken a safety course than seniors. 

Two things.

1- Experience does not equate to being responsible or making good decisions.
2- Lawers and Insurance probably have more to do with these decisions than anything.

Remember - Cadets = Minors.  (Even if you are 20, you're still considered a minor by the corporation... and that affects things like insurance... liability... etc...)

The issue of cadets driving or even seniors under 21 driving is something I have given a lot of thought to. One of the sad things I learned in my research is all of the fatal motor vehicle accidents in CAP over the last 10 years or so have been by drivers over the age of 60....I think our safety focus is at the wrong end of the age line......maybe we should look at those with poor response time, more likely to fall asleep driving, poor vision and hearing, and years of bad habits before we look at those who are at their prime. You know its funny a 19 yr old solider can drive a tank but a 19 yr old senior member can't drive a mini van with 2 other members....even if they are all seniors.

[Eclipse]

Tanks are significantly more crash-resistant than a mini-van, and that 19-year-old won't be in that tank until he receives specific, hand-ons training and evaluation.

Something which many >drivers< in the US don't even get.

Driving in general in this country is treated as a "given" with little respect to the havoc and consequences that a 2-ton piece of steel can cause in a split second.  Those of us who have invested time and effort in driver / rider safety are all too familiar with this problem, and especially the attitude of "I got this!" related to ATV, motorcycles, snowmobiles, and water craft.

I have no issue with this restriction whatsoever, and am surprised it took so long.

As it stands, the large-scale activities have an (expected) loophole for golf carts, and the need for ATV-based SAR in CAP is so small as to be statistically zero (in most parts of the country), so the impact is minimal.

You can, however, add this to the perpetual list of "things we used to be able to do that someone screwed up for us due to poor decision making or supervision..."

[♠SARKID♠]

You can, however, add this to the perpetual list of "things we used to be able to do that someone screwed up for us due to poor decision making or supervision..."

That, I will agree on!

[Thor]

We should just get a different insurance provider.

[isuhawkeye]

There was a long discussion here about CAP, and its insurance.  One of the board Search experts could probably find it

[sarmed1]

Tanks are significantly more crash-resistant than a mini-van, and that 19-year-old won't be in that tank until he receives specific, hand-ons training and evaluation.

The tank is crash resistant, the occupants are just as damagable in the tank as they are in the mini van....tank moving at 45mph, people in side moving at 45 mph, tank 45-0 in 1 second because hits wall, people in side 45-0 in 1 second hits inside tank...the tank just abosorbs more energy with less damage.

As a national guard medic I drove a M113 APC with 15 minutes instruction on inspection, start and how the levers work, then spent 30 minutes driving on the tank trails out to the range, the next day M113/M557 was on my license.....

mk

[alamrcn]

the next day M113/M557 was on my license.....

On your CAPF 75? COOL!!!!   

Can we get the type of personnel restraints in our corp vans that are in the tanks? Safety first, ya know. Well, cost and politcal correctness first - then safety. But I digress.

Now how about bicycles? Many CAP personnel are seen rocketing around airports (and passing golf carts) on these two-wheel safety hazards - without proper equipment or training. I guess there hasn't been a notable (or reportable) incident yet with a bicycle for it to be approched in CAPR 77-1. Of course I'm being facetious and not really helping this discussion, sorry about that.

-Ace

[N Harmon]

Just got Col. Courter's memo regarding the Fossett search. Here is an excerpt:

From the start of the operation, these areas were searched repeatedly at different times of day and light angles in order for crews to better see into deep mountain ravines. Ground search teams on foot, horseback and all-terrain vehicles simultaneously combed the same target areas.

Was she referring to other agencies using ATVs or was CAP actually using ATVs during this search?