No CAP ATVs or Golf carts (New CAPR 77-1)

[N Harmon]

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_090303072619.pdf

ATVs can not be owned or operated by CAP. In fact, the or operated has been added to Humvees, boats, etc. I wonder how that will affect the handful of members who have Hummer POVs based on the Humvee.

I guess this makes canoe trips a no-go for a squadron activity too.

Edit: The subject is a little misleading. While the regulation does prohibit CAP from owning or operating golf carts, it gives you a great big exception when approved by a Wing/Region/National commander.

[NIN]

So, lets see now.

No buses (and after the APJOC crash, are we going to be restricted from military buses, too?)
no ATVs, no golf carts (whoa, what about NBB? That's this week, right?)
no HUMMVEES (I think that probably pertains to the military variants, not the civil ones which conform to federal highway safety standards for things like impact, bumpers, and seatbelts).

I think we're not allowed to have M-151s anymore either (thank god, too, cuz I saw a unit WIWAC that had this ancient military jeep and watching the squadron commander careen down the road at speed with a cadet in the right seat, two or three in the back and towing a trailer, with no roll bars and probably no seatbelts, lets just say that I was always worried that we'd be scraping these poor guys off the pavement someplace..)

Don't stay in those nice FEMA trailers we got, either, OK, until you've had a 3rd party check 'em out to make sure you're not gonna kill someone just for spending time in there... (Can we give radio operators "hazardous duty pay"?)

So we have 12 & 15 pax vans (oh, whoops, 12 pax vans.. if you have a 15 pax, remove the extra seat and enjoy the cargo space) which are known roll-over hazards.

Argh.

If they ban leather personnel carriers, I'm outtie.

[John Bryan]

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_090303072619.pdf


I guess this makes canoe trips a no-go for a squadron activity too.

If it does and your unit wants to take a canoe trip, just dual charter as a BSA Venture Crew and do it under the BSA charter.

[RiverAux]

You know, most of the county SAR teams in my state are based on ATV use from what I've read and heard.  There are definetely certain aspects of SAR missions where ATVs can be helpful.   That being said, they do have their dangers, but I see no reason for a total ban.  I would prohibit them from being used by cadets, but a properly equipped and trained senior member on an ATV shouldn't be a big problem.    

[isuhawkeye]

why develope proper ways to train and document the prpoer use o a resource when you can ban them

[cnitas]

Just a typical knee-jerk reaction to a unique safety situation where someone got hurt.

We just had an ORM briefing from CAP's materials on Tuesday night, and part of the briefing discussed the downside to being 'reactive' to safety hazards as opposed to maintaining a constant well thought out standard.

I wonder if CAP has truly adopted ORM standards, or if it is just lip service.

[BigMojo]

How is a privately owned ATV being used by the owner any different than using a POV to respond to a mission? I would think same liability to the owner applies. I can see them not being owned by CAP or a Squadron and not allowing Minors to operate, but telling me I can't use my equipment because I have their uniform (which I own) on...that seems a little too Big Brother to me.

[Eclipse]

no golf carts (whoa, what about NBB? That's this week, right?)

Paragraph 2e is plenty of loop hole for NBB, HMRSS, and even encampments(which are wing-level activities):
1)Golf cart type utility vehicles (internal combustion or electric) may be authorized for use at wing-level, region-level or national-level activities by the commander at such level on an individual activity basis. The commander may delegate this authority (e.g. to the vice, chief of staff, or transportation officer.)

2)Golf cart type utility vehicles (internal combustion or electric) may not be purchased unless approved by either the National Commander, the CAP Executive Director, or by both the Region Commander and the National Safety Officer.

Though cadets must now be 18 and have a valid DL to operate:
g.Cadets are not authorized to operate any ATV type vehicle. Cadet use of golf type utility vehicles will be restricted to cadets 18 years of age or older with verification of a valid driver's license and then only with approval of the national/ region/wing commander (as appropriate for the level of activity being performed) or commander's designated representative. There will be no other cadet passengers in or on any vehicle when being operated by a cadet.


However the local fly-in, open house, etc., is now blocked, unless you're able to convince the Wing CC to make it a Wing activity (not really all that difficult).

This had to be in the hopper before the FLWG accident.  If it wasn't, and NHQ was able to update the actual regulation this fast, not simply issue an ICL, you have to admit its impressive.

[lordmonar]

How is a privately owned ATV being used by the owner any different than using a POV to respond to a mission? I would think same liability to the owner applies. I can see them not being owned by CAP or a Squadron and not allowing Minors to operate, but telling me I can't use my equipment because I have their uniform (which I own) on...that seems a little too Big Brother to me.

How is it different?  Insurance.  Our insurance provider is willing to cover the risk of member owned vehicles (cars, trucks) but not ATVs.  It is that simple.

It is Big Brother...because it is CAP and not you who is going to pay the bill when you get killed or someone else is injured....even if there is no negligence involved.

If I am paying the bills......I get to say what happens.

[BigMojo]

How is it different?  Insurance.  Our insurance provider is willing to cover the risk of member owned vehicles (cars, trucks) but not ATVs.  It is that simple.

It is Big Brother...because it is CAP and not you who is going to pay the bill when you get killed or someone else is injured....even if there is no negligence involved.

If I am paying the bills......I get to say what happens.

Good to know. I, apparently naively, thought that when in a POV, you are not under the CAP umbrella, but under the private insurance carrier...ergo, if I'm on my ATV, I am covered under my ATV insurance (yes I have it), not CAP's. This is really too bad, because ATV's are a valuable tool.

[N Harmon]

Okay, so....

CAP no-go:


Still okay:


and



and





(Of course, the reg does say "is not limited to" so please take the above as poking fun and not my advice to go out and buy any of the above for ground team work without a serious conversation with your wing king)

[KyCAP]

Not only do we hold the Guiness world record for ATV Parades in KY..

http://www.harlandaily.com/articles/2006/09/17/news/local_news/news9568.txt

But we also have a SAR certification course that is taught nationwide for ATV users.
http://eeresq.com/_wsn/page9.html

I don't know of a Rescue Squad in the state that doesn't have either an ATV on inventory or gaggles of members expected to show up with them.

[Eclipse]

Aren't ATV's in KY just commuter vehicles?

[KyCAP]

Yep

:angel:

[alamrcn]

National put us in the Nerf Suit again... <puke>... our new SAR uniform :


I'm guessing there will now be even MORE local government and law enforcement agencies out there that will rule out CAP as a viable resource. I imagine there are some wings that depend on remote access vehicles VERY heavily, and this will cripple their SAR effort.

So, can we still do horseback patrols like in the ol' days?

-Ace

"Let's kill all the lawyers, let's kill 'em tonight!" - Don Henley

[cnitas]

So, can we still do horseback patrols like in the ol' days?

Right up to when a horse kicks some cadet in the teeth.  Then they will be outlawed as well.

[IceNine]

Dumb cadets should know when they are looking at a horses *&$  that is an essential skill in life

All the more reason for mounted SAR in CAP

[stratoflyer]

Well this certainly is a lively discussion! Definitely this was in response to the FLWG incident. Get this--I've seen memos from the Air Force commenting on CAP members' regard to safety as "unsatisfactory". Shoot, if the Air Force is sending memos saying step up safety, shouldn't someone have been looking to prevent this sort of stuff from happening? I agree that CAP needs unique equipment such as ATV's in wings that have very different terrain and incidents like the Florida one coupled with regs like this have potential to be detrimental. This regulation needs to be read very carefully and interpreted very carefully! National is forced to walk a very fine line here with these sort of things and we all need to be vigilant to safety, especially with cadets. Otherwise, litigation will sink us.

[KyCAP]

OK, so it's late and I've read it once, but what IS a Golf cart type utility? A Gator or like?

Also, up front it says NO ATV, then over in the shaded areas it confuses me to think there is some way that ATV's can be used...  Maybe I am just tired and will read this tomorrow with clarity.

[KyCAP]

Also, if they were going to update the reg then why didn't they change the language on the CAP seal to reflect the MAJCOM thing a ma bob (ok so it's late) decal on Corporate Owned Vehicles?