2B or not 2B

Started by birdog, July 02, 2008, 09:45:08 PM

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birdog

I apologize for creating an anonymous account but I didn't want my name attached to this question:

I have an interesting situation here: I have a cadet that has been a discipline problem almost since he joined 18 months or so ago. We have given him far more leeway than he has deserved. We've gone thru all of the discipline options allowed us by regs (counseling, held in grade, demoted, suspended) Now we are at the point of 2B. After the last incident he "quit," handed over his card and everything. A week goes by and while he is badmouthing me and our unit he declares his intention to transfer but the decision to terminate had been made. The form was drawn up and I personally hand delivered it to our group commander. Group CC came to me about 30 minutes later and says [senior wing staffer] doesn't like it. After I explained everything to him, my group CC changed his mind. Now 5 days later my CC gets a call from the group CC saying don't send the form to national we're transferring the cadet. That doesn't sound right to me. This cadet is bad new for the program. Nearly everyone we've talked to agrees that he needs to be canned. Can we deny the transfer and still 2B him or are our hands tied?

Duke Dillio

Did anyone contact the wing legal officer before you started filling out the paperwork?  Also, did you follow the whole process?  It's been quite a while since I have had the displeasure of starting one of these, but there is a specific procedure that you need to complete.  It involves sending the cadet a letter, giving him the right to appeal, etc.  If you didn't talk to the legal officer or didn't follow the procedure, you will most probably end up hearing about the disapproval.  I don't know that it is specifically right or wrong for a cadet to transfer during a 2B initiation as in the process the cadet is suspended from all activities.  Hope this helps.  If not, go look at the regs and make sure you have all your ducks lined up.

lordmonar

You can deny the transfer.

But if the new commander is aware of the situation....then let him transfer and let the new commander deal with it.

You seem to have done everything you should...wing is aware, group is aware,....just check that the gain sq is aware.

If they still want him....let them.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Erect an SEP field around it and move on.

"That Others May Zoom"

Camas

Quote from: birdog on July 02, 2008, 09:45:08 PM
I Can we deny the transfer and still 2B him or are our hands tied?

That transfer shouldn't happen so yes, deny it. If you have questions on that procedure look up the "approving a transfer" forum for a discussion on that topic. It's not fair to dump a problem onto another unit.

As far as the CAPF2b process goes, review CAPR 35-3. Follow the procedures and keep your ducks in a row as stated earlier. Good luck!

Eclipse

Quote from: Camas on July 03, 2008, 01:14:59 AM
Quote from: birdog on July 02, 2008, 09:45:08 PM
I Can we deny the transfer and still 2B him or are our hands tied?

That transfer shouldn't happen so yes, deny it. If you have questions on that procedure look up the "approving a transfer" forum for a discussion on that topic. It's not fair to dump a problem onto another unit.

Yes, he could click the "deny" button, which is just going to aggravate higher headquarters and not change anything, since Group or Wing will simply have the cadet transferred via some other means or directly using their special Wing-level force powers.  They can mass-transfer anyone they want without even asking you, happens all the time with 000 moves, as can NHQ.

Unless you can pin specific allegation(s) against this cadet for 2b-level offenses (which, frankly have to be pretty serious), you're just going to make yourself look vindictive.  Bear in mind, too, that a 2b could potentially impact this cadet's ability to enter the service, get certain jobs, and/or have other unintended consequences.  That's a lot to pin on a kid for being a PITA.

You've done your job, higher HQ has made a decision, and once the SEPF is in place you won't have to think about it.
If you're that worried, stock an extra "I told you, so." in the fridge for when this goes South.

"That Others May Zoom"

CASH172

If I remember correctly, if the losing commander denies the transfer, it can be appealed to the next higher commander.  In this case the group commander would have the final say and you already know his answer. 

Camas

Quote from: Eclipse on July 03, 2008, 01:24:24 AM
Yes, he could click the "deny" button, which is just going to aggravate higher headquarters and not change anything, since Group or Wing will simply have the cadet transferred via some other means or directly using their special Wing-level force powers.  They can mass-transfer anyone they want without even asking you, happens all the time with 000 moves, as can NHQ.
You're right. I know all too well. I'm the wing DP and WSA so yes, I can move people around as I wish. But I gotta tell ya - I'd think twice about overruling a unit commander's authority on transfers. It doesn't make for a very popular wing staffer. And in our wing transferring cadets to the "000" unit isn't an option.

Eclipse

Quote from: Camas on July 03, 2008, 02:29:38 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 03, 2008, 01:24:24 AM
Yes, he could click the "deny" button, which is just going to aggravate higher headquarters and not change anything, since Group or Wing will simply have the cadet transferred via some other means or directly using their special Wing-level force powers.  They can mass-transfer anyone they want without even asking you, happens all the time with 000 moves, as can NHQ.
You're right. I know all too well. I'm the wing DP and WSA so yes, I can move people around as I wish. But I gotta tell ya - I'd think twice about overruling a unit commander's authority on transfers. It doesn't make for a very popular wing staffer. And in our wing transferring cadets to the "000" unit isn't an option.

This is not a staffer, this is a Group CC.  As long as that is on his business card, its his call.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: birdog on July 02, 2008, 09:45:08 PM
I apologize for creating an anonymous account but I didn't want my name attached to this question:

I have an interesting situation here: I have a cadet that has been a discipline problem almost since he joined 18 months or so ago. We have given him far more leeway than he has deserved. We've gone thru all of the discipline options allowed us by regs (counseling, held in grade, demoted, suspended) Now we are at the point of 2B. After the last incident he "quit," handed over his card and everything. A week goes by and while he is badmouthing me and our unit he declares his intention to transfer but the decision to terminate had been made. The form was drawn up and I personally hand delivered it to our group commander. Group CC came to me about 30 minutes later and says [senior wing staffer] doesn't like it. After I explained everything to him, my group CC changed his mind. Now 5 days later my CC gets a call from the group CC saying don't send the form to national we're transferring the cadet. That doesn't sound right to me. This cadet is bad new for the program. Nearly everyone we've talked to agrees that he needs to be canned. Can we deny the transfer and still 2B him or are our hands tied?

Okay.....let's make everthing clear here.

You have involved group and I assume wing leadership in this decision....you are kind of stuck in doing what they say.

You can lobby the officer in charge to changer their mind....but that is all.

If you were to process the 2b...and the cadet challenged it....the MARB would side with the group CC and reinstate and then transfer the cadet.  So the end state would be the same.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Capt M. Sherrod

I am going to ask a very simple question.

Has the cadet been progressing through the program during the past 18 months?

If so, why?

Note on the cadet 2B failure to progress 2 times in a year is reason for dismissal.  That is not able to be appealed.

Also, on a demotion / loss of achievement, they have a set window of time to re-earn that achievement.  If they fail to do so, that is grounds for separation.

I hope that helps.
Michael Sherrod, Capt, CAP
Professional Development Officer
Hanscom Composite Squadron, NER-MA-043

Eclipse

Quote from: 1st Lt M. Sherrod on July 03, 2008, 01:02:48 PM
Note on the cadet 2B failure to progress 2 times in a year is reason for dismissal.  That is not able to be appealed.

Also, on a demotion / loss of achievement, they have a set window of time to re-earn that achievement.  If they fail to do so, that is grounds for separation.

There's no such thing as an action that can't be appealed, everyone has a boss, even the iCC.

Lack of progression may be grounds, but nothing is automatic, we had a unit CC a fews years back who refused to allow his cadets to test for over a calendar year - hard to kick someone on no progression. (not the case here, just an example of why nothing is automatic.)

Lord knows we've got multi-year Chiefs all over the place.

"That Others May Zoom"

Psicorp

This is a situation where documentation can be your friend.  If you have everything documented (counselling, reasons for withholding of promotion, demotions, etc), then there is no reason for a 2B not to go through.

If a member quits and turns in his/her membership card, is there a way to prevent that person from obtaining a new card from National short of a 2B?

Either way, stick to your guns sir.  You do not need the aggrevation and distraction to your squadron of a member who doesn't want to get with the program.    I'd definately discuss this with a Wing legal officer.

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Psicorp on July 03, 2008, 01:49:04 PM
If a member quits and turns in his/her membership card, is there a way to prevent that person from obtaining a new card from National short of a 2B?

NHQ has the ability to "flag" peoples memberships which will deny their renewal.  They often use this option in lieu of termination and after termination so that the person can't rejoin.  If they try to rejoin it raises the flag and people are notified.

If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Eclipse

#14
Quote from: Psicorp on July 03, 2008, 01:49:04 PM
Either way, stick to your guns sir.  You do not need the aggravation and distraction to your squadron of a member who doesn't want to get with the program.    I'd definitely discuss this with a Wing legal officer.

Agreed, which is why the Group CC is transferring the cadet elsewhere.  Once the SEPF is in place, there should be no "distraction" to this unit.

As to Wing Legal's involvement, you'd be violating the chain of command.  In this case, higher HQ has already made a clear decision, and apparently has the buy-in of his higher HQ.  The system is working as designed. 

Legal officers are consultive staffers like everyone else, they advise commanders on contracts, violations of regulations (none I can see here) and protecting the corporation from assault, both in internal and external, they are not, necessarily, the "police force of CAP" as many members believe.

I would say the only place to appeal this would be in the form of an IG complaint, which is not going to stand in this case (barring details we don't have).

The unit CC recommended the cadet for termination, however a unit CC is not an approving authority for membership termination of squadron or flight members.  The lowest approving authority in that case is a Group CC. 

Consult CAPR 35-5(E), Page 5, Attachment 1.   http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082203092704.pdf


"That Others May Zoom"

CASH172

From CAPR 39-2
Quote1-11. Transfer of Membership. Members may transfer from one unit to another as long as they are members in good standing in their current unit of assignment. Members may not transfer to preclude an adverse action or when placed in suspended status. Individuals who misrepresent their status in order to transfer may be subject to membership termination action as outlined in CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination.
a. A member who moves from one locality to another may transfer to another unit in the new community. A member may also transfer from one unit to another in the same locality upon approval of the unit commanders concerned. If approved by one, but disapproved by the other, the request will be forwarded to the commander at the next higher echelon for decision. If disapproved by both unit commanders, the transfer will be denied.
b. Commanders may initiate transfers for those members under their command to other units under their command. In the event a member objects to such transfer, the request will be forwarded to the commander of the next higher echelon for final decision.
c. Members do not lose their membership by virtue of a unit deactivation. They may be transferred to another unit in their locality or, if they do not elect to join another unit, they will be transferred to the parent wing for the duration of their membership year.
CAPR 39-2 16 JUNE 2004 5
d. Transfer Procedures:
1) When a member transfers to another unit, the gaining commander will initiate CAPF 2a. The gaining unit will mail the original of the form directly to NHQ CAP/LMMR and furnish a copy to each intermediate headquarters in the chain of command. When National Headquarters completes the transfer action, it will be reflected on the losing unit's monthly membership listing (MML). If there is any reason why the transfer is not acceptable to the losing unit, the losing unit commander must notify NHQ CAP/LMMR within 2 months of the notification. (For example: An unacceptable transfer reflected on a May membership listing must be reported to National by 31 July). In such cases, National will void the transfer and return the member to the losing unit until the problem can be resolved.
2) When a member transfers, the transferring member will hand carry his or her records to the gaining unit.
e. For guidance on the acceptance of former cadet members and transfer of achievement credits, refer to CAPR 52-16.

RiverAux

Its been a few years since I had a need to pay attention to these sorts of things, but doing a 2b on a cadet was pretty much routine for my home squadron.  Not that we did them weekly or anything, just that when it was done, it wasn't a big deal.  However, those were mostly failure to attend 3 meetings situations, though there was at least one situation very similar to the one that started this thread.

lordmonar

Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 03, 2008, 02:04:55 PM
Quote from: Psicorp on July 03, 2008, 01:49:04 PM
If a member quits and turns in his/her membership card, is there a way to prevent that person from obtaining a new card from National short of a 2B?

NHQ has the ability to "flag" peoples memberships which will deny their renewal.  They often use this option in lieu of termination and after termination so that the person can't rejoin.  If they try to rejoin it raises the flag and people are notified.



IIRC National decided a few years ago to stop doing that.  Yes people are still flagged....but no new people are flagged using the 2D process (IIRC).  If you get a 2b or if you have a bad check or some other reason to be flagged...then they will flag you.  But a unit commander can't just ask national to flag someone.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Duke Dillio

2B's aren't as easy as they seem to be.  Case in point.  I was the personnel officer for Squadron A.  A cadet transferred from Squadron B to our unit.  When he arrived, he was wearing C/2nd Lt.  The two squadrons were less than 20 miles apart.  My squadron CC was talking with the CC from the other squadron and somehow they started talking about this specific cadet.  CC-B tells CC-A that said cadet had never made it past C/TSGT in his squadron.  Red flags go up.  I am asked to inspect the records and note that all of the signatures above C/TSGT appeared to be forged, very poorly at that.  I report this to my CC.  He initiates 2B action against the cadet.  During the appeal hearing, the group CC decides to reduce the cadet to C/TSGT and allow the cadet to "re-earn" rank and achievements at 1 month intervals and also requires that said cadet perform a speech to the other cadets of both squadrons about honor, integrity, etc.  About two months goes by and said cadet seems to be working toward getting everything back in line when I receive his Earhart certificate in the squadron mail box.  Long story ending, said cadet is removed from CAP via 2B and all milestone awards are rescinded at Nat'l.  Said cadet later joins the USAF, falsifies his enlistment documents, shows up at the squadron HQ in an SP uniform with a gun, and is later removed from the USAF (don't know if he did any jail time but he should have.)  Said cadet now owns a private security company from the last that I heard.  I understand that the process is supposed to allow for fairness but sometimes things just don't go right.  Follow the process and it makes things easier at times.

CASH172

Quote from: Sqn72DO on July 03, 2008, 02:42:26 PM
During the appeal hearing, the group CC decides to reduce the cadet to C/TSGT and allow the cadet to "re-earn" rank and achievements at 1 month intervals and also requires that said cadet perform a speech to the other cadets of both squadrons about honor, integrity, etc.  

I don't understand how he could've re-earned rank if he never got it.  That seems totally unfair that he gets to get gain rank at half the interval. 

lordmonar

Quote from: CASH172 on July 03, 2008, 02:46:52 PM
Quote from: Sqn72DO on July 03, 2008, 02:42:26 PM
During the appeal hearing, the group CC decides to reduce the cadet to C/TSGT and allow the cadet to "re-earn" rank and achievements at 1 month intervals and also requires that said cadet perform a speech to the other cadets of both squadrons about honor, integrity, etc.  

I don't understand how he could've re-earned rank if he never got it.  That seems totally unfair that he gets to get gain rank at half the interval. 

I would guess....

They were throwing a bone to the cadet....i.e. they had no proof that they were forged...just a strong suspicion.  So they split the difference and trashed the regulations and came up with a compromise.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

MIKE

#21
Quote from: Psicorp on July 03, 2008, 01:49:04 PM
If a member quits and turns in his/her membership card, is there a way to prevent that person from obtaining a new card from National short of a 2B?

When they throw their card on the table drop a 2b for Voluntary Resignation for their signature.  Maybe keep one on file pre-filled so you just have to add dates and name?

If someone is gonna surrender their card, you might as well make it official and take them through the process... even if it is a bit heated.
Mike Johnston

RiverAux

QuoteThey were throwing a bone to the cadet....i.e. they had no proof that they were forged...just a strong suspicion.  So they split the difference and trashed the regulations and came up with a compromise.
Seems easy enough to prove to me.  Either the person actually signed it or they didn't.  With the easy availability of "witnesses" from the former unit, it shouldn't have been a big deal. 

Eclipse

Quote from: RiverAux on July 03, 2008, 03:32:37 PM
QuoteThey were throwing a bone to the cadet....i.e. they had no proof that they were forged...just a strong suspicion.  So they split the difference and trashed the regulations and came up with a compromise.
Seems easy enough to prove to me.  Either the person actually signed it or they didn't.  With the easy availability of "witnesses" from the former unit, it shouldn't have been a big deal. 

Mitchell awards do not just magically appear, and if he had one, forged or not, its a little late to be blowing the whistle on the kid back to Tech.

"That Others May Zoom"

Johnny Yuma

QuoteBear in mind, too, that a 2b could potentially impact this cadet's ability to enter the service, get certain jobs, and/or have other unintended consequences.  That's a lot to pin on a kid for being a PITA.


HUH?!?!?!?!?

You're joking, right? Being kicked out of CAP is about as serious as getting kicked out of the Webelos in the eyes of the rest of the world.
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"

" Skip a bit, brother."

"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:

Flying Pig

#25
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on July 10, 2008, 04:16:51 PM
QuoteBear in mind, too, that a 2b could potentially impact this cadet's ability to enter the service, get certain jobs, and/or have other unintended consequences.  That's a lot to pin on a kid for being a PITA.


HUH?!?!?!?!?

You're joking, right? Being kicked out of CAP is about as serious as getting kicked out of the Webelos in the eyes of the rest of the world.

This was the big rumor when I was a cadet also.  I see its alive and well.  Being 2b'd out of CAP only prevents you from being in CAP, assuming there were no criminal issues attached.  Even then, it would be the criminal issues that would follow you, not the 2b.  Two branches of the military and 2 law enforcement agencies, I have never been asked about my status in CAP in anyway, nor have I ever been required to disclose that I was a CAP member.  For someone who joins the military, it only comes up if they are claiming it for advanced rank upon initial enlistment.

I would be curious as to what jobs someone thinks it would prevent you from getting?  Maybe a civilian job at NHQ possibly, or maybe a business owned by a CAP member?  Other than that......

I remember the stories of the mysterious CAP cadet who was 2b'd who was seen years later wandering skid row digging in trash cans because his life had been ruined by the 2b.  I even had a Senior Member tell a group of us that a 2b went on your record as a felony in some states.  Siiiiiiiigh......the cadet underground is a powerful thing. ;D


Duke Dillio

In the case that I brought up, it wasn't the 2B that supposedly "ruined" his life.  This kid was a liar by nature.  He lied about his Mitchell.  He lied to the Air Force about having it and then used it to gain advanced rank which he didn't deserve.  Now he owns a security company whose whole basis is on ensuring that the customers trust him and his company.  The sad point of the story is that he didn't learn his lesson from a 2B or from being forcibly removed from the military.  This is probably why I drill the concept of honor into the cadets that I deal with.

Stonewall

#27
Yes.  This is not right.  The "problem cadet" should not be moved or allowed to stay in CAP in any capacity.  I would fight it as it may come back to bite someone in the butt.
Serving since 1987.

mikeylikey

^ That is why I have an AKO and AF Portal Account.  I like to "check" on people I meet online claiming to be heroes.  I just can't get into the Marine or Navy system.. For some reason it won't let me register, maybe because I am not in the Navy, but the AF let me register even though I am not in the AF.  Weird.

Actually the Marine Distance Ed system let me register.  I have yet to take any courses through it though. 

 
What's up monkeys?

birdog

Quote from: Stonewall on July 11, 2008, 09:34:21 PM
Yes.  This is not right.  The "problem cadet" should not be moved or allowed to stay in CAP in any capacity.  I would fight it as it may come back to bite someone in the butt.
Was that at me? So I've got a follow up. While I was out of town for the holiday I got a call from a neighboring unit CC wanting to know why this cadet was just transfered in. Wing in their infinite wisdom had decided to transfer him without consulting either unit CC. Long story short this kid is assigned to Group HQ in the hope that he just non renews. He was involved in plan to break into our unit HQ which is in a municipal airport FBO and steal his file with another cadet who was 2B'd right afterward. This was about a year ago. The whole situation sucks.

Johnny Yuma

Quote from: birdog on July 11, 2008, 10:44:26 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on July 11, 2008, 09:34:21 PM
Yes.  This is not right.  The "problem cadet" should not be moved or allowed to stay in CAP in any capacity.  I would fight it as it may come back to bite someone in the butt.
Was that at me? So I've got a follow up. While I was out of town for the holiday I got a call from a neighboring unit CC wanting to know why this cadet was just transfered in. Wing in their infinite wisdom had decided to transfer him without consulting either unit CC. Long story short this kid is assigned to Group HQ in the hope that he just non renews. He was involved in plan to break into our unit HQ which is in a municipal airport FBO and steal his file with another cadet who was 2B'd right afterward. This was about a year ago. The whole situation sucks.

Question: Has anyone even tried to talk to Mommy and Daddy about Junior?

The unit CC could also have a "quiet talk" with the Airport management. Having the kid banned from airport property trumps a 2B, at least as far as attending the local unit meetings.
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"

" Skip a bit, brother."

"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:

jimmydeanno

Quote from: birdog on July 11, 2008, 10:44:26 PM
Long story short this kid is assigned to Group HQ in the hope that he just non renews.

Yep, sounds about right - why actually deal with the problem when you can just "hope it goes away."  It's a pretty large theme in most of the "problems" in CAP I've seen. (Not directed at you, but those who made the decision)
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

birdog

Since I have been talking this over with people it turns out that while not smart it was within regs to retain him. He apparently appealed and somehow won. Problem is our unit was not given the chance to present our case. He's not even aware that he is attached to group. He told me to return the stuff my logistics section retrieved in the chance he gets called up for a mission this week. No one will call him.

CASH172

Can I ask how old this cadet is and if his parents know of the situation.  To me his behavior wouldn't come out from a 12-14 year old but someone older.  If he is older than someone really has to show him he can't keep doing this. 

I also do believe his parents should be notified so they're aware something is in fact happening.  If they have no idea, then maybe they can make the situation calmer. 

mikeylikey

He won his appeal.  Now you need to drop the situation.  If you don't call him out for a mission and he is qualified, you may actually be brought up before the membership review board.  Don't make it personal.  Keep a paper trail, and document everything.  Then present your case with the evidence making the charges against him.  In fact, you may want to distance yourself, and assign another officer to keep tabs on this Cadet. 

Just some friendly advice. 
What's up monkeys?

c172drv

Seeing as he is no longer part of your unit.  I would transfer his personnel folder to Group, since they now "own" him.  Don't return his gear that was issued and retrieved since he is no longer part of your unit.  Don't call him out since he is no longer part of your unit.  Make sure he knows where he belongs.

Good Luck!

John
John Jester
VAWG


birdog

I've not initiated contact with him except to retrieve my gear. He keeps texting me. Usually to start a fight. I try to ignore him but I can only take so much before I have to defend myself. So yes it is personal but only because he made it so. I used to consider him a friend and do things with him outside of official stuff but haven't in over a year. He's 17 and wants to be a Marine but failed his medicals because they found amphetamines in his blood. Those would be his ADHD meds that he lied and said he didn't have when he signed up. To call him narcissistic would be insulting to self respecting narcissists everywhere.   

mikeylikey

A face to face......."don't contact me ever again, we are not friends" should suffice.

also......are you the SQD commander?  Are you a Senior Member??  Are you a Cadet?  If your a senior Member.....this is the reason why we should not be friends with Cadets.  If your a Cadet, let the Senior Members handle this.  This is why they are there. 
What's up monkeys?

c172drv

If he is texting you repeatedly I would send him a formal letter or email stating that you wish him to stop.  I would copy in your chain of command up to Wing CC and include Wing Legal.  If he continues then you have a harassment issue that you can proceed with to Wing Legal.   It is important that you don't let this get to far.  Sounds like this cadet is a bit troubled and will need a full measure of effort to get the change to go through his brain. 

Real bummer to deal with this stuff. 

John

PS  Document everything.  Every text message, email and phone call to include content time and date and your response.  I wold then possibly bundle that all together to wing.  If wing doesn't do anything then you have an issue to take to the IG.
John Jester
VAWG


birdog

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 14, 2008, 03:33:16 PM
A face to face......."don't contact me ever again, we are not friends" should suffice.

also......are you the SQD commander?  Are you a Senior Member??  Are you a Cadet?  If your a senior Member.....this is the reason why we should not be friends with Cadets.  If your a Cadet, let the Senior Members handle this.  This is why they are there. 

I agree with the relationship part. However we were friends before our unit had even stood up. We both joined after the unit was formed. I am CD/S. I function more as a VC though because I am more experienced than the CD/C and more available than the CC so I am a conduit between the boss and the unit. I also tend to get out in the wing and meet people more than the other officers so I have relationships with other unit CC and our Grp CC. I'm not trying to put my CC down but he is a federal employee and his schedule sucks so he can't get out and meet people. That and wing does everything they can to screw my Grp but that's a whole nuther issue.

Eclipse

You could also file criminal legal charges against him for text message harassment, or at the least get a restraining order, however from an internal CAP perspective, I would think anytime two members are in RO-territory, one of them is still eligible for a 2b.

You might also be able to block his sender ID's, phone numbers, etc., from your text service (again, the high-road).

Sounds like a bad situation, and one where higher HQ is not minding the store properly - there's always region...

"That Others May Zoom"

birdog

Unfortunately as I was informed by a former IG and Wing commander: Once my unit loses the appeal it's done. Next time my Grp CC is up I will make sure he gets the file which does have documentation of his misconduct and let him deal with it.

mikeylikey

^ Unless you are presenting the same info where the member already won his appeal.  That would be a case of Double Jeopardy.  In fact, any previous cited incidents that already were disposed of at the appeal are inadmissible.

You need to start documenting new items, not regurgitating old ones.

As far as the text messaging goes, that is somewhat hard to prove.  It is a circumstantial transmission, and he can fight that.  Emails are the same, unless you get a private dick and investigate source codes, IP addresses etc.

I would say chalk this thing up as a learning experience and distance yourself from it.  It sounds like he is bitter and wants to drag some people down to his level.

Why does he want your units equipment back if he transfered to another unit??  Did you take uniforms or something from him??       
What's up monkeys?

birdog

We retrieved uniforms that had not been issued very long. That's all he had. I don't believe it was a formal appeal because we were never given a chance to present all of our evidence. As a matter of fact we didn't find out about it at all until it was all over. My CC hadn't even had a chance to put the 2B in the mail to the cadet yet. It was handed to the Grp CC as a courtesy so he would know what was going on ahead of time. The part where I guess I screwed up was doing it at the wing staff meeting during a break. The wing CV saw it and didn't like it. If he had never seen it than it probably would have gone through.

mikeylikey

^ You can take back BDU's and blues owned by the unit, but you can't take back the free cadet uniform, unless he quits CAP altogether.

Anyway......good luck with that guy.  Sounds like he needs a quick beat down so he will grow up.
What's up monkeys?

birdog

We took back both because at the time he had quit. Turned in his card and everything. As of now I have one of his cards on my desk and the CC has one on his desk. We have his ROA card which means he technically is not GTM Qual'd since he can't touch a radio. I will return the Blues if I must but that's it. He's not in my unit any longer. This child is amazingly talented at manipulating people. That's why his texts get to me so bad. He knows my insecurities and exploits them. If he was 18 and not a cadet I would consider introducing him to my knuckles. But his is so I can't. My only solace is that should he manage to get into the service his platoon will hurt him.

Eclipse

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 14, 2008, 04:42:45 PM
As far as the text messaging goes, that is somewhat hard to prove.  It is a circumstantial transmission, and he can fight that.  Emails are the same, unless you get a private dick and investigate source codes, IP addresses etc.

Text messages are easy to trace, and usually are self-incriminating as they nearly always originate from a telephone number (unless he's sending them from vtext or something).  Your phone bill might even have a detail of the sender, and certainly your phone company should be able to provide that.

Emails are a somewhat different story as you can spoof headers, say someone stole your password, etc., but even a little sleuthing with the header and other sources should be enough to tell you who is doing it.

Restraining orders don't require conviction-level evidence, just enough indications someone is being threatening or harrasing.

Quote from: birdog on July 14, 2008, 05:58:17 PM
We took back both because at the time he had quit. Turned in his card and everything. As of now I have one of his cards on my desk and the CC has one on his desk. We have his ROA card which means he technically is not GTM Qual'd since he can't touch a radio. I will return the Blues if I must but that's it. He's not in my unit any longer. This child is amazingly talented at manipulating people. That's why his texts get to me so bad. He knows my insecurities and exploits them. If he was 18 and not a cadet I would consider introducing him to my knuckles. But his is so I can't. My only solace is that should he manage to get into the service his platoon will hurt him.

Don't play games, give him his stuff and move on - he's still a GTM, he's still in CAP, and people over your paygrade have decided its going to stay that way at least for a while.

The Wing will just issue him a new ROA (its not like these are checked for physical possession very often anyway), and anything else you choose to withhold.

You will likely make more trouble for yourself than the cadet and there's no point in it.  Your comments here alone are enough to tell us he is getting under your skin far more than he should.

"That Others May Zoom"

birdog

Quote from: Eclipse on July 14, 2008, 06:47:32 PM
Quote from: birdog on July 14, 2008, 05:58:17 PM
We took back both because at the time he had quit. Turned in his card and everything. As of now I have one of his cards on my desk and the CC has one on his desk. We have his ROA card which means he technically is not GTM Qual'd since he can't touch a radio. I will return the Blues if I must but that's it. He's not in my unit any longer. This child is amazingly talented at manipulating people. That's why his texts get to me so bad. He knows my insecurities and exploits them. If he was 18 and not a cadet I would consider introducing him to my knuckles. But his is so I can't. My only solace is that should he manage to get into the service his platoon will hurt him.

Don't play games, give him his stuff and move on - he's still a GTM, he's still in CAP, and people over your paygrade have decided its going to stay that way at least for a while.

The Wing will just issue him a new ROA (its not like these are checked for physical possession very often anyway), and anything else you choose to withhold.

You will likely make more trouble for yourself than the cadet and there's no point in it.  Your comments here alone are enough to tell us he is getting under your skin far more than he should.

To say that he gets under my skin doesn't quite do the feeling justice. But since I'm not the one making the decisions that's a moot point.

As to the playing games. He willingly(without being asked) turned in his cards when he "quit." If it comes down that we return them then they will be returned. As to the uniforms: if I must return the blues than so be it(it's a regulatory gray area. He did quit. But now wants back in and it was around a year after he got them.) But the 2 pieces of BDU's (pants and boots) are from squadron supply and will only be returned under protest.

lordmonar

Okay.....

First off Birdog....don't set yourself up for an IG complain for retaliation.

You tried to 2b him and it got overturned.

Second......there is NO SUCH THING as "SQUADRON PROPERTY".    So don't get too wrapped up about having to reissue BDUs.

Sure he quit...(turned in his card) but he changed his mind and you tried to 2b him and that failed.

Now you say he is a member of the group.....well that may or not be the case....either way....give his unifroms back, give him his records (including his ROA card) and send him on his way.

His new squadron CC will have to deal with him.  But don't make it harder for him...as that will only set you up for failure.

By your comments here.....he already has grounds for an IG complain.....so cut the BS and move on.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

PWK-GT

As to "there not being any Squadron property", I would have to say that'ts not entirely true.

In my case, any uniforms procured by the unit are 'issued out' on a CAPF 111, signed by the recipient and the LGS, and the member told that they are to return them upon leaving the roster. Upon a transfer out, they have the option to replace or return said items.

I also know of transfers that were held up pending 'property return' issues like this......and were upheld.

But, if this was never officially recorded, good luck with that.

YMMV.....
"Is it Friday yet"


mikeylikey

Uniforms (other than the free cadet uniform) are expendable property, meaning they can be written as "loss".  Now, for the Free Cadet Uniform, you have a one year window, that once that threshold is reached becomes the property of the cadet.

I have to agree with NED above, consider it a loss, give the cadet his junk back and hope he doesn't approach your unit or its members ever again. 

What's up monkeys?

tribalelder

If the cadet is the problem, there will ALWAYS be future grounds for termination.  It will just be someone else's problem. 

Over the years, I've helped 30+ people become ex-members, as appeal authority, board member and/or charges ghost-writer.  When I appear in blues, people ask "Who's in trouble ?"

When you get your next 2b candidate-

1)  Ask the Appeal Authority to line up a board and get you dates for a hearing.  Schedule a hearing date in the time window that meets the reg before you send the notice.

2) Put the reserved hearing date in the notice, with the caveat that the hearing must be requested in writing within the time limit AND that an alternate date can be requested.  Nothing says 'we're ready' like reserving a hearing date.

3)  Make sure your charges really are terminable offenses. 

'Uniform violations or wearing unearned grade' -- probably NOT. 

Instead 'continuing and recurring violations despite corrections' -in an ES/youth program organization with aviation, inability/unwillingness to follow instructions is BIG ticket.

'Making CC crazy ' - NOT

'Conduct unbecoming, specifically persistently disruptive to administration of Squadron by...(explain here) -MAYBE


4)  Don't forget about demotion.  It works best on the 15% of our membership that is more in love with the uniform and its bling than with CAP's missions.  Probably won't work well on anybody who wore the smurf suit, however.  Their sense of bling is distorted.
WE ARE HERE ON CAPTALK BECAUSE WE ALL CARE ABOUT THE PROGRAM. We may not always agree and we should not always agree.  One of our strengths as an organization is that we didn't all go to the same school, so we all know how to do something different and differently. 
Since we all care about CAP, its members and our missions, sometimes our discussions will be animated, but they should always civil -- after all, it's in our name.

cnitas

Quote from: tribalelder on July 15, 2008, 02:12:57 PM
Probably won't work well on anybody who wore the smurf suit, however.  Their sense of bling is distorted.
:D  Now THAT was funny!
Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Al Sayre

#53
Where you went wrong is checking the "Misconduct" box on the right.  You should have checked the "Voluntary Resignation" Block on the left.  Write him a letter "It is with deep sadness I accept your voluntary resignation as evidenced by your (preferably written) statement of resignation and relinquishing of your CAPID card yadda yadda yadda."  Form goes directly to NHQ (attach a copy of his written resignation); No "Approving authority", no appeal, no headache.

CAPR 35-3
Quote6. Termination Procedures. When a unit commander determines
that it is appropriate to terminate an individual's CAP
membership, the following procedures will be followed:
a. For reasons not involving misconduct or termination for
cause, the unit commander will prepare a CAP Form 2B,
"Request for Termination of CAP Membership," in three
copies. The original copy will be mailed to National
Headquarters; the second copy will be mailed to the member's
last known address; and the third copy will be retained in the
unit's file

He can then re-apply later if he wants and you can always say "Thanks but no thanks".
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

flyerthom

Quote from: birdog on July 14, 2008, 03:05:03 PM
I've not initiated contact with him except to retrieve my gear. He keeps texting me. Usually to start a fight.

Check with your cell provider. It may be possible to block his number from reaching you. You should also do this with your home hard line.
TC

lordmonar

Quote from: flyerthom on July 16, 2008, 04:19:45 AM
Quote from: birdog on July 14, 2008, 03:05:03 PM
I've not initiated contact with him except to retrieve my gear. He keeps texting me. Usually to start a fight.

Check with your cell provider. It may be possible to block his number from reaching you. You should also do this with your home hard line.

Or simply foward the text messages to his new commander and ask him to help stop the communications.  That way you provide him with ammunition to do his own 2b if need be.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

mmizner

It seems pretty straight forward.

1.  He handed you his card and verbally quit.  Fill out a 2b stating the cadet withdrew, "Voluntary Resignation", from the program.  Done!
2.  You are the commander, right?  It is your decision not the group CC.  If there is an appeal then it will be on the group cc to make a decision.
3.  Tell the gaining Sqd CC the issues and if he wants to take him, fine.  No longer your problem..  And maybe the new commander will get through to the kid.  (not likely)

Sorry to be so gruff...  I really upsets me when good people are troubled with problem cadets.

Good Luck ...  Tells us the outcome..
-Mike

www.nvwgcadets.org

NavLT

I realize that there is a negative stigma about 2B a member, particularly a cadet.  Howerver, there is the good of the organization to consider, keeping bad apples in a unit or just shuffling them to another unit is bad practice.  In the case that started the string the history (if documented) is pretty solid.  How much internal damage can a rotten person do to an organization if allowed to hang around and influnce people and affect missions?

I hope that the Wing involvment you mentioned is just a lack of clear understanding of the situation.  If it is a "Wing Staffer" I would hope that the Group CC that you convinced meets with his boss the Wing CC and pushes your case.

What would a cadet transfered to the Wing holding Squadron do anyway?

V/R
Lt J.

mikeylikey

Quote from: NavLT on July 23, 2008, 02:12:07 PM
What would a cadet transferred to the Wing holding Squadron do anyway?

Nothing!  That may be the point.  Perhaps we are waiting for a non-renewal!!
What's up monkeys?