2B or not 2B

[birdog]

I apologize for creating an anonymous account but I didn't want my name attached to this question:

I have an interesting situation here: I have a cadet that has been a discipline problem almost since he joined 18 months or so ago. We have given him far more leeway than he has deserved. We've gone thru all of the discipline options allowed us by regs (counseling, held in grade, demoted, suspended) Now we are at the point of 2B. After the last incident he "quit," handed over his card and everything. A week goes by and while he is badmouthing me and our unit he declares his intention to transfer but the decision to terminate had been made. The form was drawn up and I personally hand delivered it to our group commander. Group CC came to me about 30 minutes later and says [senior wing staffer] doesn't like it. After I explained everything to him, my group CC changed his mind. Now 5 days later my CC gets a call from the group CC saying don't send the form to national we're transferring the cadet. That doesn't sound right to me. This cadet is bad new for the program. Nearly everyone we've talked to agrees that he needs to be canned. Can we deny the transfer and still 2B him or are our hands tied?

[Duke Dillio]

Did anyone contact the wing legal officer before you started filling out the paperwork?  Also, did you follow the whole process?  It's been quite a while since I have had the displeasure of starting one of these, but there is a specific procedure that you need to complete.  It involves sending the cadet a letter, giving him the right to appeal, etc.  If you didn't talk to the legal officer or didn't follow the procedure, you will most probably end up hearing about the disapproval.  I don't know that it is specifically right or wrong for a cadet to transfer during a 2B initiation as in the process the cadet is suspended from all activities.  Hope this helps.  If not, go look at the regs and make sure you have all your ducks lined up.

[lordmonar]

You can deny the transfer.

But if the new commander is aware of the situation....then let him transfer and let the new commander deal with it.

You seem to have done everything you should...wing is aware, group is aware,....just check that the gain sq is aware.

If they still want him....let them.

[Eclipse]

Erect an SEP field around it and move on.

[Camas]

I Can we deny the transfer and still 2B him or are our hands tied?

That transfer shouldn't happen so yes, deny it. If you have questions on that procedure look up the "approving a transfer" forum for a discussion on that topic. It's not fair to dump a problem onto another unit.

As far as the CAPF2b process goes, review CAPR 35-3. Follow the procedures and keep your ducks in a row as stated earlier. Good luck!

[Eclipse]

I Can we deny the transfer and still 2B him or are our hands tied?

That transfer shouldn't happen so yes, deny it. If you have questions on that procedure look up the "approving a transfer" forum for a discussion on that topic. It's not fair to dump a problem onto another unit.

Yes, he could click the "deny" button, which is just going to aggravate higher headquarters and not change anything, since Group or Wing will simply have the cadet transferred via some other means or directly using their special Wing-level force powers.  They can mass-transfer anyone they want without even asking you, happens all the time with 000 moves, as can NHQ.

Unless you can pin specific allegation(s) against this cadet for 2b-level offenses (which, frankly have to be pretty serious), you're just going to make yourself look vindictive.  Bear in mind, too, that a 2b could potentially impact this cadet's ability to enter the service, get certain jobs, and/or have other unintended consequences.  That's a lot to pin on a kid for being a PITA.

You've done your job, higher HQ has made a decision, and once the SEPF is in place you won't have to think about it.
If you're that worried, stock an extra "I told you, so." in the fridge for when this goes South.

[CASH172]

If I remember correctly, if the losing commander denies the transfer, it can be appealed to the next higher commander.  In this case the group commander would have the final say and you already know his answer. 

[Camas]

Yes, he could click the "deny" button, which is just going to aggravate higher headquarters and not change anything, since Group or Wing will simply have the cadet transferred via some other means or directly using their special Wing-level force powers.  They can mass-transfer anyone they want without even asking you, happens all the time with 000 moves, as can NHQ.

You're right. I know all too well. I'm the wing DP and WSA so yes, I can move people around as I wish. But I gotta tell ya - I'd think twice about overruling a unit commander's authority on transfers. It doesn't make for a very popular wing staffer. And in our wing transferring cadets to the "000" unit isn't an option.

[Eclipse]

Yes, he could click the "deny" button, which is just going to aggravate higher headquarters and not change anything, since Group or Wing will simply have the cadet transferred via some other means or directly using their special Wing-level force powers.  They can mass-transfer anyone they want without even asking you, happens all the time with 000 moves, as can NHQ.

You're right. I know all too well. I'm the wing DP and WSA so yes, I can move people around as I wish. But I gotta tell ya - I'd think twice about overruling a unit commander's authority on transfers. It doesn't make for a very popular wing staffer. And in our wing transferring cadets to the "000" unit isn't an option.

This is not a staffer, this is a Group CC.  As long as that is on his business card, its his call.

[lordmonar]

I apologize for creating an anonymous account but I didn't want my name attached to this question:

I have an interesting situation here: I have a cadet that has been a discipline problem almost since he joined 18 months or so ago. We have given him far more leeway than he has deserved. We've gone thru all of the discipline options allowed us by regs (counseling, held in grade, demoted, suspended) Now we are at the point of 2B. After the last incident he "quit," handed over his card and everything. A week goes by and while he is badmouthing me and our unit he declares his intention to transfer but the decision to terminate had been made. The form was drawn up and I personally hand delivered it to our group commander. Group CC came to me about 30 minutes later and says [senior wing staffer] doesn't like it. After I explained everything to him, my group CC changed his mind. Now 5 days later my CC gets a call from the group CC saying don't send the form to national we're transferring the cadet. That doesn't sound right to me. This cadet is bad new for the program. Nearly everyone we've talked to agrees that he needs to be canned. Can we deny the transfer and still 2B him or are our hands tied?

Okay.....let's make everthing clear here.

You have involved group and I assume wing leadership in this decision....you are kind of stuck in doing what they say.

You can lobby the officer in charge to changer their mind....but that is all.

If you were to process the 2b...and the cadet challenged it....the MARB would side with the group CC and reinstate and then transfer the cadet.  So the end state would be the same.

[Capt M. Sherrod]

I am going to ask a very simple question.

Has the cadet been progressing through the program during the past 18 months?

If so, why?

Note on the cadet 2B failure to progress 2 times in a year is reason for dismissal.  That is not able to be appealed.

Also, on a demotion / loss of achievement, they have a set window of time to re-earn that achievement.  If they fail to do so, that is grounds for separation.

I hope that helps.

[Eclipse]

Note on the cadet 2B failure to progress 2 times in a year is reason for dismissal.  That is not able to be appealed.

Also, on a demotion / loss of achievement, they have a set window of time to re-earn that achievement.  If they fail to do so, that is grounds for separation.

There's no such thing as an action that can't be appealed, everyone has a boss, even the iCC.

Lack of progression may be grounds, but nothing is automatic, we had a unit CC a fews years back who refused to allow his cadets to test for over a calendar year - hard to kick someone on no progression. (not the case here, just an example of why nothing is automatic.)

Lord knows we've got multi-year Chiefs all over the place.

[Psicorp]

This is a situation where documentation can be your friend.  If you have everything documented (counselling, reasons for withholding of promotion, demotions, etc), then there is no reason for a 2B not to go through.

If a member quits and turns in his/her membership card, is there a way to prevent that person from obtaining a new card from National short of a 2B?

Either way, stick to your guns sir.  You do not need the aggrevation and distraction to your squadron of a member who doesn't want to get with the program.    I'd definately discuss this with a Wing legal officer.

[jimmydeanno]

If a member quits and turns in his/her membership card, is there a way to prevent that person from obtaining a new card from National short of a 2B?

NHQ has the ability to "flag" peoples memberships which will deny their renewal.  They often use this option in lieu of termination and after termination so that the person can't rejoin.  If they try to rejoin it raises the flag and people are notified.

[Eclipse]

Either way, stick to your guns sir.  You do not need the aggravation and distraction to your squadron of a member who doesn't want to get with the program.    I'd definitely discuss this with a Wing legal officer.

Agreed, which is why the Group CC is transferring the cadet elsewhere.  Once the SEPF is in place, there should be no "distraction" to this unit.

As to Wing Legal's involvement, you'd be violating the chain of command.  In this case, higher HQ has already made a clear decision, and apparently has the buy-in of his higher HQ.  The system is working as designed. 

Legal officers are consultive staffers like everyone else, they advise commanders on contracts, violations of regulations (none I can see here) and protecting the corporation from assault, both in internal and external, they are not, necessarily, the "police force of CAP" as many members believe.

I would say the only place to appeal this would be in the form of an IG complaint, which is not going to stand in this case (barring details we don't have).

The unit CC recommended the cadet for termination, however a unit CC is not an approving authority for membership termination of squadron or flight members.  The lowest approving authority in that case is a Group CC. 

Consult CAPR 35-5(E), Page 5, Attachment 1.   http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082203092704.pdf

[CASH172]

From CAPR 39-2

1-11. Transfer of Membership. Members may transfer from one unit to another as long as they are members in good standing in their current unit of assignment. Members may not transfer to preclude an adverse action or when placed in suspended status. Individuals who misrepresent their status in order to transfer may be subject to membership termination action as outlined in CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination.
a. A member who moves from one locality to another may transfer to another unit in the new community. A member may also transfer from one unit to another in the same locality upon approval of the unit commanders concerned. If approved by one, but disapproved by the other, the request will be forwarded to the commander at the next higher echelon for decision. If disapproved by both unit commanders, the transfer will be denied.
b. Commanders may initiate transfers for those members under their command to other units under their command. In the event a member objects to such transfer, the request will be forwarded to the commander of the next higher echelon for final decision.
c. Members do not lose their membership by virtue of a unit deactivation. They may be transferred to another unit in their locality or, if they do not elect to join another unit, they will be transferred to the parent wing for the duration of their membership year.
CAPR 39-2 16 JUNE 2004 5
d. Transfer Procedures:
1) When a member transfers to another unit, the gaining commander will initiate CAPF 2a. The gaining unit will mail the original of the form directly to NHQ CAP/LMMR and furnish a copy to each intermediate headquarters in the chain of command. When National Headquarters completes the transfer action, it will be reflected on the losing unit's monthly membership listing (MML). If there is any reason why the transfer is not acceptable to the losing unit, the losing unit commander must notify NHQ CAP/LMMR within 2 months of the notification. (For example: An unacceptable transfer reflected on a May membership listing must be reported to National by 31 July). In such cases, National will void the transfer and return the member to the losing unit until the problem can be resolved.
2) When a member transfers, the transferring member will hand carry his or her records to the gaining unit.
e. For guidance on the acceptance of former cadet members and transfer of achievement credits, refer to CAPR 52-16.

[RiverAux]

Its been a few years since I had a need to pay attention to these sorts of things, but doing a 2b on a cadet was pretty much routine for my home squadron.  Not that we did them weekly or anything, just that when it was done, it wasn't a big deal.  However, those were mostly failure to attend 3 meetings situations, though there was at least one situation very similar to the one that started this thread.

[lordmonar]

If a member quits and turns in his/her membership card, is there a way to prevent that person from obtaining a new card from National short of a 2B?

NHQ has the ability to "flag" peoples memberships which will deny their renewal.  They often use this option in lieu of termination and after termination so that the person can't rejoin.  If they try to rejoin it raises the flag and people are notified.

IIRC National decided a few years ago to stop doing that.  Yes people are still flagged....but no new people are flagged using the 2D process (IIRC).  If you get a 2b or if you have a bad check or some other reason to be flagged...then they will flag you.  But a unit commander can't just ask national to flag someone.

[Duke Dillio]

2B's aren't as easy as they seem to be.  Case in point.  I was the personnel officer for Squadron A.  A cadet transferred from Squadron B to our unit.  When he arrived, he was wearing C/2nd Lt.  The two squadrons were less than 20 miles apart.  My squadron CC was talking with the CC from the other squadron and somehow they started talking about this specific cadet.  CC-B tells CC-A that said cadet had never made it past C/TSGT in his squadron.  Red flags go up.  I am asked to inspect the records and note that all of the signatures above C/TSGT appeared to be forged, very poorly at that.  I report this to my CC.  He initiates 2B action against the cadet.  During the appeal hearing, the group CC decides to reduce the cadet to C/TSGT and allow the cadet to "re-earn" rank and achievements at 1 month intervals and also requires that said cadet perform a speech to the other cadets of both squadrons about honor, integrity, etc.  About two months goes by and said cadet seems to be working toward getting everything back in line when I receive his Earhart certificate in the squadron mail box.  Long story ending, said cadet is removed from CAP via 2B and all milestone awards are rescinded at Nat'l.  Said cadet later joins the USAF, falsifies his enlistment documents, shows up at the squadron HQ in an SP uniform with a gun, and is later removed from the USAF (don't know if he did any jail time but he should have.)  Said cadet now owns a private security company from the last that I heard.  I understand that the process is supposed to allow for fairness but sometimes things just don't go right.  Follow the process and it makes things easier at times.

[CASH172]

During the appeal hearing, the group CC decides to reduce the cadet to C/TSGT and allow the cadet to "re-earn" rank and achievements at 1 month intervals and also requires that said cadet perform a speech to the other cadets of both squadrons about honor, integrity, etc.  

I don't understand how he could've re-earned rank if he never got it.  That seems totally unfair that he gets to get gain rank at half the interval.