Some silly uniform questions

[cmoore]

OK, this is a silly question, but I can't find the answer to it anywhere.  When affixing the plastic encased 2LT insignia to a flight suit, which way does the bar go?  Most pictures of LT and CAPT bars show the bars vertically.  But the epaulette on the blues has the bar horizontal.  I saw a picture that looked like the flight suit insignia is also horizontal, but I couldn't tell for sure.  Also, how does one attached the insignia?  Is it just sewn on?

And while I'm asking...
I've got a Nomex flight jacket (CWU-45P, I think).  I read that this is can be worn with a flight suit, but is "not authorized with any other AF style uniform."  Can I wear it with the golf shirt and grey slacks?  Does it matter whether or not it has grade insignia on it?

Thanks for the guidance.

Chris Moore, 2LT CAP

[Eclipse]

The bars run front to back, 39-1 has very clear images and measurements.  Note when affixing the grade, the measurements are from the grade itself, not the plastic edge.

2nd Lt, 1st Lt, and Capt's bar all run in the same direction as on the gray uniform epaulette's.

As to the green flight jacket - either the nylon, or the Nomex, it is only authorized for wear over the >GREEN< flight suit as it is considered a USAF uniform part.

It is not authorized over anything else.

[cmoore]

Thanks for the reply.  I looked back through 39-1 and I still don't see it.  Can you
point me to a section or table or page?  There seem to be diagrams and measurements
for all the other uniforms but not for the flight suit or flight jacket.  Maybe I'm just missing
it.

I also didn't see anything that talked about the flight jacket being only authorized with the green flight suit.  I DID see that if you wear a jacket with the flight suit the only one authorized is the green jacket.  But I didn't see any reference to wearing (or not wearing) any particular
jacket with the golf shirt.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I can't find the reference to it.

Thanks again,

Chris Moore

[Eclipse]

Page 34 of the new 39-1:

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082203102943.pdf

Shows photos and has most of the indications regarding insignia placement.
You're right, I couldnt' find a diagram regarding placement of the grade, but it is spelled out below the photos.

#9 Speaks to the jacket:
"The MA-1 flight jacket or the CWU-45/P or CWU-36/P Nomex flight jackets may be
worn."

The wear of the above jackets would fall under the prohibition of mixing USAF part wi th CAP distinctive.

If you check the knowledgebase you will see that this is a fairly contentious issue.

A loose interperatation would indicate that a >plain< green nylon jacket (without any CAP insignia) could be worn over the CAP distinctinve uniforms (whites, golf shirt, blue flight suit), but certainly the CWU45/36P's would not because they are obviously USAF parts.

Any >civilian< outerwear may be worn over CAP disctinctive uniforms. 

You'll have to dig through the various tables for more detail than that.

One thing to bear in mind that trips up a lot of CAP members.  IN the civilian world, we are used to operating under the principle of "if it doen't say you >can't<, you can".

In the military, it is the opposite - if is doesn't say you >can<, you can't.

[PWK-GT]

One thing to bear in mind that trips up a lot of CAP members.  IN the civilian world, we are used to operating under the principle of "if it doen't say you >can't<, you can".

In the military, it is the opposite - if is doesn't say you >can<, you can't.

What he said...........

[afgeo4]

ah... so CAP falls in which world exactly?   

[Eclipse]

I know you're being factious, but for those that may miss the humor, since our regs are written that way, they should be read as military regs are - the reg indicates what we >can< do, anything else is verboten.

[arajca]

In fact, CAPM 39-1 explicitly says so...

[smj58501]

Reference the references to regulations... sorry I referenced the word "references" so much, but a regulation IS a reference.

I have served in the military as my profession for the past 14 years, in addition to being a CAP volunteer for the past 8 or so. People in the military as a profession have different interpretations of how regulations apply. Some stick to the book no matter what, and others don't even know they exist.

Those mentors I have had throughout, who are very successful as military leaders, taught us all the following: Regulations serve as guidance for commanders... they are never always hard and fast rules (There is also a difference between LAWS and Regulations). One should have a good reason for deviating, but deviation is one of those decisions commanders sometimes have to make. They are commanders because they have proven they have the judgment and common sense to make sound decisions.

As far as "In the military, it is the opposite - if is doesn't say you >can<, you can't." Again, judgment and common sense apply. Remember folks, the guy or gal who wrote a particular reg can not possibly be expected to consider every possible circumstance where it may or may not apply.... the users need to fill in a few blanks.

I am not a reg-basher... I believe in them wholeheartedly. Like the military, we in the CAP must also use judgment and common sense when applying them, however.

[Eclipse]

According to Merriam-Webster Online:

Regulation:
a rule or order issued by an executive authority or regulatory agency of a government and having the force of law

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/regulation

[smj58501]

My friend, I had to chuckle when you pulled out "the  book" for your rebuttal. 

Seriously, technically the dictionary is correct. Technically, if you always follow the book you will never be wrong according to "the system". All I am saying is when we hold on too tightly to the book, it can end up running the organization rather than the leaders who are supposed to.... it does our thinking for us. Too often we also throw judgement, compassion, and common sense to the wind because of words written on an 8.5" by 11" piece of paper.

At any rate, we probably won't change each others minds on this issue, and thats ok... differences of opinion are good in an organization as diverse as CAP.  I hope you have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy and Safe New Year.   

[Nathan]

Seriously, technically the dictionary is correct. Technically, if you always follow the book you will never be wrong according to "the system". All I am saying is when we hold on too tightly to the book, it can end up running the organization rather than the leaders who are supposed to.... it does our thinking for us. Too often we also throw judgement, compassion, and common sense to the wind because of words written on an 8.5" by 11" piece of paper.

The great thing about the "book" is that you're right in a sense, it is just a bunch of words on paper. Which means that if there is a problem with it, then you just rewrite the words on the paper. Simple as that. If you see a problem with a publication, send it up the chain and let them deal with it.

Unfortunately, if you decide on your own that the regs are outdated and that you're going to do your own thing, then you end up with the problem of having EVERYONE doing their own thing, and that own thing being different than someone else's own thing. That is MUCH more difficult to change than simple words on paper.

[smj58501]

Everything you said is correct, if you have time to follow proper change processes. Unfortunately, time is not always a luxury available to leaders. Judgement and common sense play into this decision as well

[Nathan]

Everything you said is correct, if you have time to follow proper change processes. Unfortunately, time is not always a luxury available to leaders. Judgement and common sense play into this decision as well

There is a limit to this, however. Many of the regulations are written with common sense in mind, but also realizing that my common sense may be different from yours. My example is not about a reg, but you'll get the point.

If I see someone lying on the side of the road, then common sense for me, as somewhat medically qualified, would be to not move them, check for circulation and breathing, call 911, and perform any types of acts that I am qualified to perform in order to keep that person alive.

However, another person with no medical training whatsoever has different common sense. His sense is to drag the person off the road and if the person isn't breathing, to push on the stomach. While this person is technically protected by the Good Samaritan act, he still followed his common sense yet screwed something up that could have been easily avoided had the book been followed.

Now, I realize that this example is flawed in many ways, but the general idea is there.

[smj58501]

Your example isn't flawed... judgement would be the other factor that plays into the decision you detail below.

[captrncap]

I would have to say that the regulations can serve both as guidance and as requirements. For instance, if everyone where to wear different BDU (woodland, digital, etc.), it would disrupt our image and professionalism in CAP. 39-1 tries to alleviate this.

However, it is fair that members wait (sometimes for years) for Grade when the regulations state that wing commanders signature is required (i.e. professional appointment)? Why? If the Grade is at the level of authority (i.e. 1st Lt at Squadron, Capt at Group), why can the commander use his/her judgment to approve the appointment?

Just my two cents...

[Eclipse]

Huh?

If the level is at the Unit or Group CC's authority, no approval from Wing is required.

Edit - I didn't read the "Prof App" part, sorry.  For that you ARE at the mercy of the Wing CC - and Prof App promotions are not guaranteed, maybe it was rejected.

[pixelwonk]

I would have to say that the regulations can serve both as guidance and as requirements. For instance, if everyone where to wear different BDU (woodland, digital, etc.), it would disrupt our image and professionalism in CAP. 39-1 tries to alleviate this.

Do, or do not... there is no try!  (...Sorry Yoda)
Yeah, and the CAP Knowledgebase tries to answer questions too.
FYI, CAP members DO wear a dizzying array of different uniforms, and it DOES disrupt our image.

However, it is fair that members wait (sometimes for years) for Grade when the regulations state that wing commanders signature is required (i.e. professional appointment)? Why? If the Grade is at the level of authority (i.e. 1st Lt at Squadron, Capt at Group), why can the commander use his/her judgment to approve the appointment?

Just my two cents...

Um, if a member you know has had to wait years for a professional appointment promotion, then you've got some Personnel  Officer training issues to deal with at the local level.