New York Wing promotion policy - legal or no??

Started by groundpounder, October 28, 2005, 06:51:59 PM

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groundpounder

I would be interested in everyone's opinion on the newly posted New York Wing senior member promotion policy.

In a nutshell, unless you are a commander, you have to be a member of Group to be promoted to Captain, and Wing to be a Major or above.

I just read reg 35-5 and it clearly states in section A paragraph 1, "Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited."

It seems to me that NYW has completely stepped outside of the regulation here. Would you expect the AF to promote people differently based on the state that they live in?

We have a lot of very dedicated people at the squadron level whom without, the basic unit of or existence would fall apart. What incentive do these people have to take any professional development courses under this regulation?

I want to be sure that I am not the one missing the point here before I make a stink about this.

Thanks for your input!

whatevah

I suppose the intent of this is to have people move around to "share the wealth", and not stay put in a unit.  However, in many cases, group and wings usually have too many people, and so it's sometimes better for people to stay and help out their home units.

That said, it's still against the regs.  Senior members don't receive much in the way of "thanks" or recognition for their service in CAP, and one of the few ways is promotions. If we take that away, what else is left besides that occasionally warm & fuzzy feeling?
Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin

dwb

My only beef is with the Captain policy, because CAPR 35-5 makes it clear that, in Wings with Groups, the Group Commander is the approval authority (ref. Section A, para 5(a)).

Major and Lieutenant Colonel, while some may think the rules are odd, are promotions that require Wing Commander approval. The Wing King has full authority to dictate what it means to "Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended." (ref. CAPR 35-5, Section B, para 11(a)).

If I were Wing CC, I probably wouldn't publish a policy letter like that, only because it would restrict my flexibility to consider each individual on all of their merits, and not just whether they're in a specified staff position.  But then, no one asked me to be Wing CC.

arajca

This topic has been brought up on the Knowledgebase. The answer was that additional requirements are not permitted. And, in this instance, the Knowledgebase and the regs are in complete agreement. So , at least for Capt, the NYWG policy is in violation of the regs.

groundpounder

I'm curious why you said that "at least for Capt?"

Would not adding the restriction for Majors and above to be on wing staff also be a violation?

dwb

No, for all the same reasons that a squadron commander can disallow a cadet promotion because the cadet isn't ready for it.

Any commander in the approval process can decide whether they believe the member meets all of the criteria for promotion, which includes such (intentionally) ambiguous things like "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."

This allows commanders to use their discretion when promoting someone, and not just promoting them because they checked all the boxes.  This is an important responsibility, and it shouldn't be taken lightly.  Someone shouldn't become a Lt Col just because they've been around long enough.  They should contribute something to the organization, too.

Now, the problem with a policy like NY's is that it basically takes that discretion away from the Wing CC, instead setting hard-and-fast qualifiers like having to serve on Wing staff.  It prevents the Wing CC from even considering a superstar Group staff officer just because that person isn't a Wing staff officer.

Promotions to Captain don't require Wing CC approval in Wings with Groups (like NY), so if a Group CC were so inclined, they could just ignore the policy letter and use their own discretion for promotion to Captain (and probably get away with it on principle).

groundpounder

I agree that the Wing CC should have the ability to withhold a promotion if the member is not performing in an exemplary manner however it appears to me that the regulation is written in a way that prohibits one wing from doing something different than another.

This policy clearly creates a playing field that is not level CAP wide as the regulation intended.

Making a hard rule that you must be a member of Wing staff denies most members from a promotion that they may otherwise deserve simply because there are not any openings at the Wing level. It's kind of like saying that you have to be a pilot to become a Major. Yes anyone should be able to do it, but it unfairly places a burden on a non-pilot that otherwise may be a superstar.

The latitude given by the regs was obviously designed to keep the slugs from getting birds on their shoulders, not to allow a good ole boys network to form up at wing.

This policy can be read at http://www.nywg.cap.gov/Forms.htm for those that have not had the chance to review it.

SarDragon

Their Unit Citation policy is out to lunch, too. See http://tinyurl.com/84qya for the Knowledgebase info.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

capchiro

I guess that NY doesn't want any legal officers, medical officers or chaplains in the squadrons, or, for that matter CFI's.  Should be interesting as to how that will apply to prior service with Captain or above rank.  Somebody has overstepped their authority big time.  I always love it when someone classifies themself. 
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

groundpounder

Good point about the professional appointments, I hadn't considered that.

Looking back at the policy again, it would appear that a CFI or a Dr. would have to join as a member of at least Group to get the entry level appointment, and then would have to move to wing to be promoted. The regs basically say that they get promoted with only time in grade.

I think that this policy needs some review.

dwb

The policy states it is for Duty Performance promotions only.  Not special appointments.

groundpounder

The policy states: "Other methods of promotion such as Professional Appointment or Mission Related Kill should be made only after a member has indeed contributed those skills at the appropriate echelon."

Just prior to that paragraph the "appropriate echelons" are listed for each grade. There is no mention of minimum echelon listed in the 35-5 so it must be inferred that the policy is indicating that the minimum echelon for Capt is Group and higher is at the wing level.

In addition, the policy states that the member must be in those positions for a minimum length of time 1 or 2 years, which further violates the 35-5 regulation.

Camas

I also noticed that the supplement was signed by the NYWG Director of Adminstration.  If I'm correct there is no such thing as a "Director of Administration" at the wing level; only at the region level.  Reference CAPR 20-1 Figure 8 page 13.    ???

NIN

Quote from: SarDragon on October 28, 2005, 10:01:39 PM
Their Unit Citation policy is out to lunch, too. See http://tinyurl.com/84qya for the Knowledgebase info.

You know, I just don't get it: NHQ has had SEVERAL years to fix this particular hole in the regulations.  Its been a mess for a LONG time due to that whole "Temporary" bit that's in there, leading to a variety of interpretations based on who happens to feel like reading it that day.

They've explained it several times, but have declined to fix the publication. We can rewrite other regs that have no need to be re-written, but some of the more basic regs with fundamental flaws like this one.

Sheesh.

(I had to explain this one once to my wing king, who wasn't qualified to wear a Red Service ribbon at the time of his appointment.  He swore up and down that the word "temporary" in the paragraph meant that it would be worn by anybody who was in a unit that had ever been awarded a unit citiation, whether they were in the unit at the time of the award or not.  He told me that he'd called down to NHQ and someone in the DP shop  had told him "yep, thats the way it should be done."  Of course, I had called down to NHQ as well, and was given the same answer as the Knowledgebase gives...  Which is the way the Unit Citation has been awarded since the criteria was changed around 1980 or so.)
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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dwb

Just to clarify -- I'm not arguing that the policy is a good idea.  In fact, I think it's overkill.  I'm merely arguing that, with the exception of the Captain provisions, the Wing CC has regulatory authority to make the policy, under the provisions of CAPR 35-5, Section B, para 11(a).

He's an approving authority for field grade promotions, and he's using the policy letter to state the criteria he uses to judge worthiness of a promotion.

groundpounder

Dan,

There seems to be a little "wiggle room" in the reg in reference to Section B, para 11(a) (5) Be performing in an "exemplary" manner.

That appears to be a way to give the promoting authority the latitude to deny promotion to someone that never shows up for a meeting but has the time in grade and goes to a couple of classes.

What exactly does "exemplary" mean? For argument sake lets say that the policy was that unless you have an advanced ES rating, you could not get promoted to Major. What about those that are stellar Cadet mentors or AE members? Should they suffer under this policy because they are not ES qualified?

As I read this regulation, it clearly outlines in Section 1 that the criteria for promotion "will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol" and policies that "change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited."

There doesn't seem to be any wiggle room there. If it's not done in Texas, you can't do it in NY. This policy says that we are changing the basic criteria, if you are not a member of the Wing staff, you are not in any way to be considered qualified for promotion to Major.

The regulation as written would provide a reasonable defense for the Wing Commander to deny a promotion to a single individual by way of an arbitrary evaluation that she is not fit for promotion. ie: "she did not do anything to help her unit over the last six months" or "she misses 75% of all unit meetings and functions."

It does not however allow him to say that no person shall be considered fit for promotion unless she meets an elevated standard that is greater than the standard throughout the CAP.

Pylon

Quote from: groundpounder on October 31, 2005, 03:52:01 PM
Dan,

There seems to be a little "wiggle room" in the reg in reference to Section B, para 11(a) (5) Be performing in an "exemplary" manner.

That appears to be a way to give the promoting authority the latitude to deny promotion to someone that never shows up for a meeting but has the time in grade and goes to a couple of classes.

What exactly does "exemplary" mean? For argument sake lets say that the policy was that unless you have an advanced ES rating, you could not get promoted to Major. What about those that are stellar Cadet mentors or AE members? Should they suffer under this policy because they are not ES qualified?

As I read this regulation, it clearly outlines in Section 1 that the criteria for promotion "will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol" and policies that "change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited."

There doesn't seem to be any wiggle room there. If it's not done in Texas, you can't do it in NY. This policy says that we are changing the basic criteria, if you are not a member of the Wing staff, you are not in any way to be considered qualified for promotion to Major.

The regulation as written would provide a reasonable defense for the Wing Commander to deny a promotion to a single individual by way of an arbitrary evaluation that she is not fit for promotion. ie: "she did not do anything to help her unit over the last six months" or "she misses 75% of all unit meetings and functions."

It does not however allow him to say that no person shall be considered fit for promotion unless she meets an elevated standard that is greater than the standard throughout the CAP.

Well worded!   :)  That's the way I look at that provision, too. 

In my opinion, it's supposed to exclude the people that don't actually contribute to CAP, but check-off the promotion boxes.  As far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't exclude those who regularly contribute to CAP at the squadron level in an "exemplary" manner.  It is possible to serve CAP in an exemplary manner and not be a member of Wing Staff.

I think you hit the nail on the head.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

groundpounder

You know this has been sticking in my craw since I first heard about this policy and every time I read it further, it makes me angrier.

If you were to join CAP and everything runs perfect, you could get promoted to Lt. Col in 10 years. Now, if you miss out on a move up to Group, it could be 15 years.

Wing changes staff officers about every four years, so you folks in NY are looking to be under the thumb of the same leadership for a long, long time. >:(

How the hell did NHQ let this policy stand? What would be the proper complaint procedure for something like this?



M.S.

Quote from: groundpounderWhat would be the proper complaint procedure for something like this?

The Inspector Generals of CAP. are the ones who should be made aware of a supplement to a regulation that says 'No supplements are authorized'. TheWing IG should be first and someone should give him a summary outlining heres where it says in the regs you cant do this, and here is where Wing does it anyways.  If the Wing IG doesnt act on it then Region IG would be next to report it to.  These are the reasons we have IGs.

groundpounder

I see this morning that this policy has been removed from the NYW website. ;D