Hey did you know... Not every member pays the same membership dues

[RiverAux]

None of these dues are really out of line and as mentioned before, the needs of every state vary significantly. 

The only argument for standardizing dues that would make sense to me is to ease somewhat the accounting burden at NHQ, but as I'm betting most of it is computerized anyway, probably isn't that big a deal. 

[mynetdude]

I mean... you know... I only live 2 1/2 hours from the nearest CAWG squadron, I can just sign up there and pay cheaper dues...

Ummm...  I just looked at the document you posted, and it shows the CAWG dues as $78, and the ORWG dues as $71. That doesn't jive with the quote above.

Also, if you look at that list, you'll see that the NHQ dues are $35, Region dues are the amount listed for the region, minus $35, and the wing dues are the stated amounts minus the region dues. IIRC, (and I'm not going to do all the math tonight) there are a couple of discrepancies with that method, but it mostly works.

F'rinstance - CAWG total = $78, PCR total = $52, so it breaks down like this:

NHQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26. As one of the largest wings in the country, spread over the third largest state, and one of the most expensive areas of the country, I have no problem with giving them $26 every year to operate.

My bad, you are right... I should have left out the "CAWG" part.. either way it wouldn't have jived, if it was cheaper at a nearby wing you could in theory transfer in/out.  Again I wouldn't do that if I wanted to fully support my wing which is ok by me.

I just looked at the list, I don't see the difference, yes I see the region dues listed, and it doesn't seem to make any connection very well.

Region dues are for the senior members who are on the region staff, and I quote "Dues listed below are National dues, Any local dues would be paid to the local unit"

If you can point me to another chart that explains part of the dues indeed goes to region/wing that would very much explain the list of variable wing dues. 

BTW this isn't a complaint or rant, I was asking if anyone else KNEW that various wings paid different dues?

There is only a question then...  A) you see NHQ dues are $35? Thats the National Patron dues, you don't pay the patron dues unless you plan on "parking" your grade/rank then at that point you don't pay any wing/region dues if thats the case because you are not a member of any squadron.

B) the region dues as I said are for members of that echelon to pay, has nothing to do with what we pay at the wing level so I would assume $71 is what we pay to NHQ according to "Dues below are NHQ" according to the posted PDF image I attached.

Then you said this: HQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26.  This makes no sense, if the chart says PCR gets $52 then they get $52 not $17 otherwise it would say that... thats silly, why not just list the dues as they actually are? make it show that you only pay $17 to PCR and CAWG only gets $26? Rather than showing a bloated $78 for CAWG?

I agree they are not out of line, my whole question was if anyone knew and then standardizing dues would be better IMHO, however that wouldn't solve issues for wings that need more money than others.

[arajca]

snippage
Then you said this: HQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26.  This makes no sense, if the chart says PCR gets $52 then they get $52 not $17 otherwise it would say that... thats silly, why not just list the dues as they actually are? make it show that you only pay $17 to PCR and CAWG only gets $26? Rather than showing a bloated $78 for CAWG?

Listing a single amount removes the impression that one can only pay for the portion they want, i.e. I'll pay National and Wing, but not Region.

I agree they are not out of line, my whole question was if anyone knew and then standardizing dues would be better IMHO, however that wouldn't solve issues for wings that need more money than others.

The only fair way for that to work is if each wing receives a percent of the take based ONLY on the number of members it has. Otherwise you'll have folks complaining about funding some wing that they'll never see or work with.

[mynetdude]

snippage
Then you said this: HQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26.  This makes no sense, if the chart says PCR gets $52 then they get $52 not $17 otherwise it would say that... thats silly, why not just list the dues as they actually are? make it show that you only pay $17 to PCR and CAWG only gets $26? Rather than showing a bloated $78 for CAWG?

Listing a single amount removes the impression that one can only pay for the portion they want, i.e. I'll pay National and Wing, but not Region.

I agree they are not out of line, my whole question was if anyone knew and then stand

ardizing dues would be better IMHO, however that wouldn't solve issues for wings that need more money than others.

The only fair way for that to work is if each wing receives a percent of the take based ONLY on the number of members it has. Otherwise you'll have folks complaining about funding some wing that they'll never see or work with.

I don't think you would have much of a choice/say in listing the single amounts as to whom you'd want to pay anyhow. NHQ collects it, not you.  So I suppose if you were in the region rather than wing you would not have to pay the extra $20 whatever it is for ORWG or CAWG if that was your WG.

[ßτε]

If you can point me to another chart that explains part of the dues indeed goes to region/wing that would very much explain the list of variable wing dues. 

It is not part of a chart, but it does specify in CAPR 39-2 CIVIL AIR PATROL MEMBERSHIP that National HQ collects Wing and Region dues.

The chart you refer to used to be an appendix to CAPR 39-2, but the most recent versions are separate documents.

[Cecil DP]

Actually, it seems like the Wings with the least members charge the lowest fees. For years NHWG was $23/year. They weren't charging any wing dues and just charging for National and Region.  On the other hand Texas, Florida, and Califonia are all extemely high. I think CAP should be collecting fees for all those errent ELT,s. Leave a note or send a letter asking for a donation to the Wing or Squadron  to defer expenses,  with a reminder that the FCC charges in the multiple thousands to do the same job.

the air force pays for that, I don't know where they get the money for that.  It doesn't cost CAP anything to track ELTs... its the members who end up eating some of the costs such as lodging and meals.[/quote]

My point is that we are providing a service which which can provide funding to the Wings and Squadrons. When we alert someone that their ELT/EPIRB is going off for the 2nd or 3rd time. They should be aware that the FCC provides the same service @ $1000 for the first incident with a scale that goes up to $10,000 or more. Granted the Air Force pays for the gas, but at 3 a.m. and 20 degrees on a rainy December night. I want to see some recompense to the unit. Otherwise all we've done is wasted our time on a job that is mandated to the Air Force which would cost them more in 1 night than a months worth of CAP ELT searches. 

Tags - MIKE

[DNall]

If anything we need to find ways to decrease dues, not increase them?  If anyone disagrees with that, then feel free to pay for my renewal in 6 months!

I understand your frustration. I don't like paying annual dues, but my point was actually that the difference between a $70 annual fee & $100 is pretty marginal in the scheme of everything we pay for. If they could push that number upward slightly, and in doing so fund a budget to units, offer more & cheaper trng (encampment, PD, etc), and subsidize some other expenses members normally go out of pocket for, then I'd really prefer that. What that does is share the load around on everyone pretty equally rather than raping the people who are really committed & letting the others sneak in as free-riders.

My point is that we are providing a service which which can provide funding to the Wings and Squadrons. When we alert someone that their ELT/EPIRB is going off for the 2nd or 3rd time. They should be aware that the FCC provides the same service @ $1000 for the first incident with a scale that goes up to $10,000 or more. Granted the Air Force pays for the gas, but at 3 a.m. and 20 degrees on a rainy December night. I want to see some recompense to the unit. Otherwise all we've done is wasted our time on a job that is mandated to the Air Force which would cost them more in 1 night than a months worth of CAP ELT searches. 

We're not going to be asking for donations from people when we turn off their ELTs. That's a conflict of interest bordering on criminal. You aren't going to tell someone that repeat activations will be referred to FCC for a 10k fine, and then ask them for money - which leads to the assumption of, "or I'm calling the FCC." And you aren't going to leave people with the impression you're out here for their donation, as in you aren't going to come find them if they don't pay the tax. No, that's all criminal & inappropriate. There's plenty of folks & ways you can ask for donations that aren't shady.

[SarDragon]

I mean... you know... I only live 2 1/2 hours from the nearest CAWG squadron, I can just sign up there and pay cheaper dues...

Ummm...  I just looked at the document you posted, and it shows the CAWG dues as $78, and the ORWG dues as $71. That doesn't jive with the quote above.

Also, if you look at that list, you'll see that the NHQ dues are $35, Region dues are the amount listed for the region, minus $35, and the wing dues are the stated amounts minus the region dues. IIRC, (and I'm not going to do all the math tonight) there are a couple of discrepancies with that method, but it mostly works.

F'rinstance - CAWG total = $78, PCR total = $52, so it breaks down like this:

NHQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26. As one of the largest wings in the country, spread over the third largest state, and one of the most expensive areas of the country, I have no problem with giving them $26 every year to operate.

My bad, you are right... I should have left out the "CAWG" part.. either way it wouldn't have jived, if it was cheaper at a nearby wing you could in theory transfer in/out.  Again I wouldn't do that if I wanted to fully support my wing which is ok by me.

I just looked at the list, I don't see the difference, yes I see the region dues listed, and it doesn't seem to make any connection very well.

Well, isn't it logical that Region members pay just NHQ and Region dues? If the NHQ amount is $35, the the remainder must be the Region amount.(see more below)

Region dues are for the senior members who are on the region staff, and I quote "Dues listed below are National dues, Any local dues would be paid to the local unit"

If you can point me to another chart that explains part of the dues indeed goes to region/wing that would very much explain the list of variable wing dues. 

AFAIK, there are no other charts.

BTW this isn't a complaint or rant, I was asking if anyone else KNEW that various wings paid different dues?

There is only a question then...  A) you see NHQ dues are $35? Thats the National Patron dues, you don't pay the patron dues unless you plan on "parking" your grade/rank then at that point you don't pay any wing/region dues if thats the case because you are not a member of any squadron.

Patrons membership pays at the basic NHQ rate, as do members of Overseas units, one of which I belonged to for quite some time. When I came back to the US from Japan, I didn't affiliate with a new unit for ten years, and paid just the NHQ rate, at that time $30. The patron rate was the same.

B) the region dues as I said are for members of that echelon to pay, has nothing to do with what we pay at the wing level so I would assume $71 is what we pay to NHQ according to "Dues below are NHQ" according to the posted PDF image I attached.

Then you said this: HQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26.  This makes no sense, if the chart says PCR gets $52 then they get $52 not $17 otherwise it would say that... thats silly, why not just list the dues as they actually are? make it show that you only pay $17 to PCR and CAWG only gets $26? Rather than showing a bloated $78 for CAWG?

It is implicit in the dues structure that the amount a member pays is apportioned among NHQ, Region, and Wing. I was breaking down the amount paid into the apportioned amounts. If a Region's dues are e.g. $52, then NHQ gets its cut before the remainder goes to the Region. This ain't rocket surgery.

I agree they are not out of line, my whole question was if anyone knew and then standardizing dues would be better IMHO, however that wouldn't solve issues for wings that need more money than others.

This structure has been in place s long as I've been in CAP, and I don't ever recall it being an issue or a problem.

[FW]

This structure has been in place s long as I've been in CAP, and I don't ever recall it being an issue or a problem.

SARDRAGON is quite right. However, I would like to attempt to clear this dues stuff up by adding my $.02.  

Each individual wing sets its own dues.  NHQ is only the collection agent.  All wing dues money goes back to the wing.  It is their money for wing expenses.

Same for region dues.  Region sets dues structure and region dues go to the region for region expenses (AFAIK).  Each region also gets $10k additional for operations and travel expenses from National which comes from the corporate budget (a portion of the $35 we pay for national dues; $25 for cadets).  This is done because regions don't have a political entity to go for grants or appropriations.

It is the NB which sets the "base" National Dues amount.  National dues pay for everything the Air Force will not permit us to use from our annual grant from congress.  Programs like the "School Enrichment Program",  "Fly a Teacher" program,  NB/NEC meetings, Region Appropriations, Scholarships, NCSAs, etc.

I would not want to tamper too much with the current system.  Giving every wing the same amount would hurt poorer wings or cause an increase in everyone's dues for, I think, obvious reasons.  

[Cecil DP]

My point is that we are providing a service which which can provide funding to the Wings and Squadrons. When we alert someone that their ELT/EPIRB is going off for the 2nd or 3rd time. They should be aware that the FCC provides the same service @ $1000 for the first incident with a scale that goes up to $10,000 or more. Granted the Air Force pays for the gas, but at 3 a.m. and 20 degrees on a rainy December night. I want to see some recompense to the unit. Otherwise all we've done is wasted our time on a job that is mandated to the Air Force which would cost them more in 1 night than a months worth of CAP ELT searches. 

We're not going to be asking for donations from people when we turn off their ELTs. That's a conflict of interest bordering on criminal. You aren't going to tell someone that repeat activations will be referred to FCC for a 10k fine, and then ask them for money - which leads to the assumption of, "or I'm calling the FCC." And you aren't going to leave people with the impression you're out here for their donation, as in you aren't going to come find them if they don't pay the tax. No, that's all criminal & inappropriate. There's plenty of folks & ways you can ask for donations that aren't shady.

I didn't say call the FCC on them. But what is criminal in asking for a donation to offset the cost of going after a non emergency ELT? There is a law against  allowing "spurious emissions" which is what we are stopping. I am tired of going out at 3 in the morning because some idiot threw his elt into the back of his trunk so it can roll around enough to go off or he made a hard landing and didn't check before shutting down the aircraft. Most of our searches are groundless and have no reason to be except for carelessness on the behalf of the owner of the aircraft or boat. I am tired of being told that while the AF or Coast Guard people who may be involved are fed and housed on a mission. They will pay for the gas and oil on the CAP Aircraft, but we can't feed the searchers or put them up in a motel overnight.  especially when you may have to take a day off from work-salary which is lost unless you use personal or sick days. Yeah let's take pity on the imbeciles who shrug it off when we knock on their door to ask them to shut the machine down.

Tag spacing - MIKE

[mynetdude]

My point is that we are providing a service which which can provide funding to the Wings and Squadrons. When we alert someone that their ELT/EPIRB is going off for the 2nd or 3rd time. They should be aware that the FCC provides the same service @ $1000 for the first incident with a scale that goes up to $10,000 or more. Granted the Air Force pays for the gas, but at 3 a.m. and 20 degrees on a rainy December night. I want to see some recompense to the unit. Otherwise all we've done is wasted our time on a job that is mandated to the Air Force which would cost them more in 1 night than a months worth of CAP ELT searches. 

We're not going to be asking for donations from people when we turn off their ELTs. That's a conflict of

interest bordering on criminal. You aren't going to tell someone that repeat activations will be referred to FCC for a 10k fine, and then ask them for money - which leads to the assumption of, "or I'm calling the FCC." And you aren't going to leave people with the impression you're out here for their donation, as in you aren't going to come find them if they don't pay the tax. No, that's all criminal & inappropriate. There's plenty of folks & ways you can ask for donations that aren't shady.

I didn't say call the FCC on them. But what is criminal in asking for a donation to offset the cost of going after a non emergency ELT? There is a law against  allowing "spurious emissions" which is what we are stopping. I am tired of going out at 3 in the morning because some idiot threw his elt into the back of his trunk so it can roll around enough to go off or he made a hard landing and didn't check before shutting down the aircraft. Most of our searches are groundless and have no reason to be except for carelessness on the behalf of the owner of the aircraft or boat. I am tired of being told that while the AF or Coast Guard people who may be involved are fed and housed on a mission. They will pay for the gas and oil on the CAP Aircraft, but we can't feed the searchers or put them up in a motel overnight.  especially when you may have to take a day off from work-salary which is lost unless you use personal or sick days. Yeah let's take pity on the imbeciles who shrug it off when we knock on their door to ask them to shut the machine down.

Tag spacing - MIKE

I disagree, we shouldn't be asking for donations to offset the costs of tracking ELTs, they are ALREADY PAID for so asking donation for something that is already paid for is like "double tapping" I would think the concept is illegal.

Now if some poor bloke who is embarrassed to see folks in CAP uniform standing in front of him because they found HIS ELT and wants to donate to the cause, fine but don't ASK for it.

[sjtrupp]

When I joined as  a cadet, back in 1987, I had to send in a check to National with the application, and another check to Wing, with a copy of the application. I knew then, as a cadet, that the dues were due to both the Wing and National.  I was told that when I renewed, National would collect both sets of dues.

I remember when I was on a Wing staff and the Commander asked the staff if we should increase the Wing dues.  When I asked "Why?", the response was because we haven't increased the amount in a number of years.  I wasn't the only person not happy with that response, and the issue died. 

Now, I have a position at region.  The analysis of separating the dues, portion to National, Region and Wing is almost correct.  National gets the $35 and the Wings get the difference between the Region and Wing amount, but the Region's money is handled differently.  We just don't get the difference.  Each region is given a set amount for the Region, and then there is at least one other coffer for the Region Commander's travel (NEC, NB meetings and such).  I don't know where the rest of the "Region" goes though.  I've asked, but there are more important things going on and didn't see the need to push for a more complete answer.

Oh, and don't forget that some squadrons require "Unit" dues as well.  I was the Finance Officer when my Squadron Commander required that.  It was a HUGE pain for me, but the membership complained more about than I did.  After 9 months, I gave a briefing at a Squadron Commander's Call, showing the members what our money was spent on and how the finances worked.  Someone complained during the briefing and I simply said that if we could ensure participation for fundraisers and collect the money we needed that way, the dues would go away.  Everyone agreed that the occasional fundraiser was the way to go.

[Steve Kuddes]

Wings charge an amount of dues which they consider necessary for their operations like rent, phone etc.  This varies on whether they get state funding or large donations.  At North Central Region, we help fund the cost of encampments and other Cadet activities to make it financially easier to attend those activities.  We also have to pay travel costs for Region and Wing personnel serving on Wing Commander Selection Boards, Commanders Calls etc.

Wing Commanders review annually the amount of dues they collect and can make adjustments as needed.  It would be difficult to "charge" the same dues for each Wing due to membership numbers plus the physical size of the state affects travel expenses.  Good recruiting and retention practices can help eliminate or ease dues increases.

Steve Kuddes, Colonel, CAP
NCR/CC