"If you go to church, then you can go to the CAP meeting"

Started by RiseAbove, February 25, 2008, 08:30:32 PM

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RiseAbove

Hi All,

If you'd let me introduce myself... I'm a 14 (nearly 15)-year old who's very interested in joining my local CAP squadron.  My mom is very against this, as she thinks it is too much like the USAF and somehow, CAP will find a way to force me to enlist.

Anyways,  I was talking to her today and she gave a me a deal.  I am an atheist, I believe all the typical beliefs of an atheist and she knows it.  She told me that if I go to church with her every other week, then I can submit a membership application.  I find this to be very manipulative, because I know that no matter how many sermons I hear, I am not going to change my beliefs until I have a personal epiphany, which can only happen inside myself, and it seems very unfair that in order to join a good-will (which is a part of the Catholic morals) organization like CAP, I have to waste my time each Sunday that I could spend studying CAP material or doing schoolwork.

I was wondering what you're opinion on the subject was, and if there is anything you could suggest that I say to her...

Thank You Very Much,
Zach Tucker
C/Tucker
Goddard Cadet Squadron
NER-MA-007

dwb

Maybe she could talk to the adult leaders at your local CAP unit...?

Although service is obviously important in CAP (it's one of our core values), it doesn't necessarily follow that cadets will join a military service.  The CAP cadet program isn't really like the Air Force at all.  Sure, we wear the same uniforms and there are some common moral themes, but it's definitely not an indoctrination of any kind.

Also, speaking of morals, mentioning the character development requirements, and having your mom talk to the adult(s) that lead the character development sessions in the unit, may help reassure her.

As a last ditch effort, you can always just tell her you'll pick up the $31 membership fee and to give it a year to see what she thinks.

Hawk200

Looks like you have two options. Go to church, and be able to join CAP, or don't.

As for what to say to your mother, there isn't much other than yes or no. It sounds like she is looking out for you. Let her, and be thankful she is. She is presently accountable for you in many different ways. Fighting that will only bring you a lot of hassles.

♠SARKID♠

Good to see your interest in joining CAP!

Have you taken her to a meeting yet?  That would be a good opportunity for her to talk to the senior members and sort her misconceptions out.  By the sound of things, you're fully aware that you won't be forced into the Air Force, or any branch of service for that matter.  Just remind her that you're a civilian, and will always be a civilian.  You'll learn pretty quickly that we don't actually have massive contact with the active duty AF (some squadrons more than others, depending on members and meeting places).  Believe me, if we were forcing people into the Air Force, we'd have a lot less people joining our organization.

Al Sayre

Be sure to introduce her to the Squadron Chaplain.  Even if you are not a religious person, they are generally pretty nice folks that you can talk to.  as for the deal with your mom, I am not a very religious person, but I always figured a little churchin' never hurt anyone.  You might learn something there about yourself or about others, and it will give you a chance to challenge your beliefs and either strengthen or modify them.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

Major Lord

Zach,

Welcome to CAP! One of the downsides of being a teenager and living at home is that you are subject to the parental-unit's rules. ( Besides, you were probably baptized a Catholic, so the only way to quit is to die or be excommunicated...) I think it is safe to say that most adults have to listen to something they don't agree with, or even violently object to, for at least once an hour once per week. ( Well, at least if they are married....) Tough it out. When you are no longer under mom's roof, you get to make the rules and face the consequences of your own actions. For the time being, you have a get out of jail free card-enjoy it while it lasts, the stark realities of adulthood will be on you soon enough.

I have always thought the problem with Atheism is that it requires so much faith! One little slip and you are at least technically an Agnostic...

Major Lord


"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RiseAbove

Thank you very much for the support!  I've been talking to my Mom and, pending some research, it sounds as if she thinks that CAP's benefits outweigh the "risks" ;)

And you have a great point Major Lord, I would bet that most adults do have to and I would not be unhappy to sacrafice some of my time in order to keep my Mom happy in order to apply to my unit.

Thanks Again,
Zach Tucker
C/Tucker
Goddard Cadet Squadron
NER-MA-007

Major Lord

Zach,

That's great! By the way, I don't think the risk of your enlisting because of CAP is all that great. The vast majority of Cadets don't join the service. If you do, get a degree and get a commission. I think most of the Air Force enlisted people out there will tell you that there is a significant quality of life difference as an Officer. Tell your mom you want to be a pilot so you can help all those people in foreign lands get food when they have emergencies, and that the Air Force spends most of its time in good clean fun, singing KumBahYah, hanging out with the Catholic Chaplains ( Most of whom will NOT be like the priests you saw in civilian life)  and such.... (Ixnay on the Ocketsray, Uclearnay Ombays, and uisecray isslemays....)

What unit will you be joining?

Also, I was just joking about Athesim in  my post above, So I don't really need to get flamed by any more Atheists out there- I pray that god gives you a atheists a sense of humor...darn, I did it again....I will just stop right here!

Major Lord
(No relation to the creator of the universe)
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RiseAbove

Im thinking of joining the Worcester Comp. Squadron NER MA022

Thanks all again

EDIT- I, myself, am not worried about enlistment, I had done enough research and read enough stories to know not to think that.  The most involved I would get in the military in my life would be the USAF Reserves.
C/Tucker
Goddard Cadet Squadron
NER-MA-007

Al Sayre

Look, you can tell your mom you've been involved with CAP for less than a day and your already talking to the Lord online.      :D
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

♠SARKID♠

Quote from: RiseAbove on February 25, 2008, 10:44:09 PM
Im thinking of joining the Worcester Comp. Squadron NER MA022

Thanks all again

EDIT- I, myself, am not worried about enlistment, I had done enough research and read enough stories to know not to think that.  The most involved I would get in the military in my life would be the USAF Reserves.

I just remembered - We had a new person join our squadron not two weeks ago and she was in the same boat as you.  Her mom thought she was being drafted and didn't want her daughter being shipped over seas to go fight the war.  A quick explanation of who we are and what we do cleared it right up and she's on track to being a great cadet!

MIKE

Quote from: RiseAbove on February 25, 2008, 10:44:09 PM
Im thinking of joining the Worcester Comp. Squadron NER MA022

Hey... my old unit!  Let me know if I can be of assistance getting you in touch with the squadron commander or other info on the squadron.  I was formerly a cadet in the unit back when it was a Cadet Squadron... Now that the unit has absorbed Goddard Composite Sq, you may have your choice of meeting locations/nights.
Mike Johnston

JohnKachenmeister

I wanted to be an Atheist once.

But I quit when I found out they don't have any holidays.
Another former CAP officer

RogueLeader

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 26, 2008, 02:43:09 PM
I wanted to be an Atheist once.

But I quit when I found out they don't have any holidays.

Sure they do, its 1 April. >:D >:D >:D >:D
sorry, I couldn't it help it.  the Devil made me do it.  opps
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

LittleIronPilot

You sound like a squared away young man how is articulate and has some inkling of your own views and beliefs.

All I can say is that CAP would be glad to have such as you.

As for your mother....let me just bow out now, because I find forced religious dogma to be...well like I said, let me bow out.



Quote from: RiseAbove on February 25, 2008, 08:30:32 PM
Hi All,

If you'd let me introduce myself... I'm a 14 (nearly 15)-year old who's very interested in joining my local CAP squadron.  My mom is very against this, as she thinks it is too much like the USAF and somehow, CAP will find a way to force me to enlist.

Anyways,  I was talking to her today and she gave a me a deal.  I am an atheist, I believe all the typical beliefs of an atheist and she knows it.  She told me that if I go to church with her every other week, then I can submit a membership application.  I find this to be very manipulative, because I know that no matter how many sermons I hear, I am not going to change my beliefs until I have a personal epiphany, which can only happen inside myself, and it seems very unfair that in order to join a good-will (which is a part of the Catholic morals) organization like CAP, I have to waste my time each Sunday that I could spend studying CAP material or doing schoolwork.

I was wondering what you're opinion on the subject was, and if there is anything you could suggest that I say to her...

Thank You Very Much,
Zach Tucker

mynetdude

lol @ all those Atheism jokes :)

sorry a bit off topic, but being forced to go to church could cause some resentment but then again thats a silly thing to habor.

I like articulate young maturing teens/adults these are the kinds to have in CAP :)

Flying Pig

As a parent, I say do what your mother wants, your a kid.  Besides, if God doesn't exist, you have nothing to worry about by going.  It will be like going to the movies.

RiseAbove

Thank you for all your advice,

I (of course) had to accept my Mom's deal, and I got it cut down to once a month :).  I went to my first meeting last night, and although it was pretty light because of the snow falling, it was very interesting to come in and see how things are run.  I got to see a demonstration of an ELT and see how the MAWG net is run at night.

All in all, things are looking very good, and I think the meeting this sunday at the airport might seal the deal.

Thank You All,
Zach Tucker
C/Tucker
Goddard Cadet Squadron
NER-MA-007

SDF_Specialist

Well I'm not one to get involved in issues between cadets and their parents. However, I can understand where she is coming from, and going to. Your mother believes that church is a great thing, and to those who do believe in Jesus, it is a good thing. Since you do not believe in Jesus, I will not tell you to believe. That is your decision. I don't think it's a matter of your mother pushing her beliefs onto you, but rather she wants you to meet her half way. You want to be a CAP cadet, and that's great. She wants you to hear the things that give her comfort. It's more of a "meet me half way" type deal. I would say to grin and bear it. What's an hour or two one day a week?
SDF_Specialist

Major Lord

I can see where he could come into conflict with his Mom. She may insist for instance, that he recite the Creed, take communion, or commit acts that would be as offensive to the Churches law as it is to his own sense of ethics. Mom's wish notwithstanding, don't take a false oath, but go and keep your mom company. I think every lad is at some point forced into going to church, but you have reached the age where you had a duty and an obligation to form a right conscience, so your "soul" is your own now. I wonder how much mom's pressure contributed to your disdain for the church? I have found that Catholic schools generate more atheists than communism!

Go have fun! Take O-rides, go to activities, promote every 60 days, and run ES missions ( My son ditched his 8th grade graduation to go run a real mission with me-good times!)

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RiseAbove

Major Lord,

You are probably right, I would be there mostly to keep my Mom company and to keep her mind at rest.

Question though, how would I go about getting into the ES specialization, would I talk to the Squadron Commander or the ES Officer or the Cadet Commander, and would I have to take courses at the squadron level or wing level?

Thank you all very much,
Zach Tucker
C/Tucker
Goddard Cadet Squadron
NER-MA-007

Major Lord

Zach,

I would find the person in your Squadron most active an interested in ES. The entry level "course" to Emergency Services is an online presentation and test called General Emergency Services. It is not hard, not particularly relevant to what you will be doing, but allows you to sign on to real world missions and excercises. Many Cadets never get that far!

Although cadets can fly in CAP, they don't fly in Aircraft on missions. You will be involved in Ground teams. (and in all fairness, no CAP ground team has ever fallen out of the sky and burst into flames on impact) You would initially start training in "UDF" or Urban Direction Finding. This trainee status allows you to go out on ground team missions that don''t require extensive off-road work. This is good, because the vast majortity of our current ELT missions are not wilderness environments, and working in the city, open country, and airports helps you develop good RDF, (Radio Direction Finding) Investigative, and Public relations skills you will need to advance to the more challenging, and less frequent lost-airplane-in-the-woods scenarios.

Within the ES field, there are many other areas for training and specialization. CAP has a number of National Activities for Cadets interested in more extensive outdoor skills. I am currently involved with a CAP School in California called the Cadet Survival School, which would be the kind of thing that Cadets interested in remaing alive should, in my humble opinion, participate in. Cadets work as radio operators, ground team members, base personnel, and a wide variety of tasks in both actual missions and training, or SAREX's (Search and Rescue Exercises)

I am sure you will like it. Most cadets that have helped save lives, recovered the bodies of pilots family members, and even helped close out a mission in any way to give "closure" find that it beats the heck out of tying sticks together in Boy Scouts or smoking dope and playing with their Play Stations....

Best regards

Major Lord
CD-S, EMT, GTL, etc.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RogueLeader

To get into ES, you'll have to access E-Services, which is www.capnhq.gov .  You will have to register.  Once you get registered, you will have to take a couple of tests.  They are not particularly hard, but they do require some reading .  The test is CAPT 116.  You will find them under Online Exams of the right side of your screen from the main page of E-Services.  Talking to your commanders is an excellent way to go.  Also, in order to get involved in ES, you need to prove that you are mature enough, as well as having the grades in school to do it- school comes first.

From the way it seems, you seem to be mature enough BUT that is the Commanders and/or the ES Officers discretion.  No using an unknown person giving you the go-ahead ;) 

Best of luck.

As a personal note, I'd tell a young person what I believe, and why I believe it.  I would never tell anyone that they have to believe it themselves.  Just know that you are always being cared for.  Being a teenager can be pretty rough, don't think that it is any easier being a parent.  keep up he good attitude, it will carry you far.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

SJFedor

Quote from: Major Lord on February 28, 2008, 02:42:12 AM
Go have fun! Take O-rides, go to activities, promote every 60 days, and run ES missions ( My son ditched his 8th grade graduation to go run a real mission with me-good times!)

You're a true CAP member when you can say "Eh, graduation is overrated, let's go chase ELTs!"

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

♠SARKID♠

Quote from: SJFedor on February 28, 2008, 08:02:22 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on February 28, 2008, 02:42:12 AM
Go have fun! Take O-rides, go to activities, promote every 60 days, and run ES missions ( My son ditched his 8th grade graduation to go run a real mission with me-good times!)

You're a true CAP member when you can say "Eh, graduation is overrated, let's go chase ELTs!"

I did it with Christmas this year  :D

floridacyclist

We had a whole bunch of Hawk Mountain staffers skip Christmas and come down to Florida to help start a school here. Funny thing is, they were expecting sunshine and beaches in Miami....what they got was 40-deg and rain all week. Even the kids from PA were griping about the cold and miserable weather.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: floridacyclist on February 28, 2008, 01:35:34 PM
We had a whole bunch of Hawk Mountain staffers skip Christmas and come down to Florida to help start a school here. Funny thing is, they were expecting sunshine and beaches in Miami....what they got was 40-deg and rain all week. Even the kids from PA were griping about the cold and miserable weather.

Gene:

Cadets CAN fly on missions.  They just have to be 18 years old.  One of our 19-year old C/2Lt's starts Scanner training in March.

Another former CAP officer

floridacyclist

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 28, 2008, 01:41:34 PM
Quote from: floridacyclist on February 28, 2008, 01:35:34 PM
We had a whole bunch of Hawk Mountain staffers skip Christmas and come down to Florida to help start a school here. Funny thing is, they were expecting sunshine and beaches in Miami....what they got was 40-deg and rain all week. Even the kids from PA were griping about the cold and miserable weather.
Gene:

Cadets CAN fly on missions.  They just have to be 18 years old.  One of our 19-year old C/2Lt's starts Scanner training in March.

You just totally lost me.

Not sure how we got here, but my 18yo son has his SQTR for Scanner and GTL already partially filled out. Am sure he'll knock those out fairly quickly once he finishes Jump School. Looking forward to seing someone actually train as an LSC as I could have used a good one a couple of times; he already has CUL and ICS 300 and 400 and that is really close to his MOS (92G), so that won't take long either.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

jeders

Quote from: floridacyclist on February 28, 2008, 01:49:02 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 28, 2008, 01:41:34 PM
Quote from: floridacyclist on February 28, 2008, 01:35:34 PM
We had a whole bunch of Hawk Mountain staffers skip Christmas and come down to Florida to help start a school here. Funny thing is, they were expecting sunshine and beaches in Miami....what they got was 40-deg and rain all week. Even the kids from PA were griping about the cold and miserable weather.
Gene:

Cadets CAN fly on missions.  They just have to be 18 years old.  One of our 19-year old C/2Lt's starts Scanner training in March.

You just totally lost me.

Not sure how we got here, but my 18yo son has his SQTR for Scanner and GTL already partially filled out. Am sure he'll knock those out fairly quickly once he finishes Jump School. Looking forward to seing someone actually train as an LSC as I could have used a good one a couple of times; he already has CUL and ICS 300 and 400 and that is really close to his MOS (92G), so that won't take long either.

Kach, I think you meant to make that response to Major Lord's earlier post about cadets not flying on missions.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

JohnKachenmeister

Another former CAP officer

RiseAbove

It reflects very well on CAP and this community when so many people take the time to write such well though-out and informative answers.

I still have to fill out a membership application, but as soon as I do and receive my CAPID from NHQ, I'm definetly going to start looking into ES thanks to all your help. 

Again, Thank you very much
C/Tucker
Goddard Cadet Squadron
NER-MA-007

Hawk200

Quote from: Major Lord on February 28, 2008, 02:42:12 AM
( My son ditched his 8th grade graduation to go run a real mission with me-good times!)

That's just cool. Too bad there aren't as many other parents out there doing the same thing with their kids.

Major Lord

FYI, That boy of mine is now a Loadmaster on a C-5, a former Spaatz cadet, and a CAP squadron commander. I am confident that RiseAbove can accomplish great things with CAP too.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Hawk200

Quote from: Major Lord on February 28, 2008, 08:56:35 PM
FYI, That boy of mine is now a Loadmaster on a C-5, a former Spaatz cadet, and a CAP squadron commander. I am confident that RiseAbove can accomplish great things with CAP too.

Major Lord

Lucky kid to make loadmaster, with good parental examples. Had the latter, no luck on the former. Every time I tried for loadmaster, it got squashed. The Air Force didn't cooperate, but the Army finally gave me some wings. Then again, a C-5 can't hover  ;D.

Hope your boy continues to do well. You apparently prepared him well for whatever life presents.

SJFedor

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 29, 2008, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on February 28, 2008, 08:56:35 PM
FYI, That boy of mine is now a Loadmaster on a C-5, a former Spaatz cadet, and a CAP squadron commander. I am confident that RiseAbove can accomplish great things with CAP too.

Major Lord

Lucky kid to make loadmaster, with good parental examples. Had the latter, no luck on the former. Every time I tried for loadmaster, it got squashed. The Air Force didn't cooperate, but the Army finally gave me some wings. Then again, a C-5 can't hover  ;D.

Hope your boy continues to do well. You apparently prepared him well for whatever life presents.

I'm sure I could get it to hover. Just not for very long.....

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

Hawk200

Quote from: SJFedor on March 01, 2008, 06:12:03 AM
I'm sure I could get it to hover. Just not for very long.....

Helicopter can do it as long as we have fuel. And crosswinds are never an issue for us. 8)

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Hawk200 on March 01, 2008, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: SJFedor on March 01, 2008, 06:12:03 AM
I'm sure I could get it to hover. Just not for very long.....

Helicopter can do it as long as we have fuel. And crosswinds are never an issue for us. 8)

But helicopters don't actually fly.  They are so ugly that the earth rejects them.
Another former CAP officer

MIKE

Mike Johnston

flyguy06

Quote from: dwb on February 25, 2008, 08:38:17 PM
Maybe she could talk to the adult leaders at your local CAP unit...?

Although service is obviously important in CAP (it's one of our core values), it doesn't necessarily follow that cadets will join a military service.  The CAP cadet program isn't really like the Air Force at all.  Sure, we wear the same uniforms and there are some common moral themes, but it's definitely not an indoctrination of any kind.

Also, speaking of morals, mentioning the character development requirements, and having your mom talk to the adult(s) that lead the character development sessions in the unit, may help reassure her.

As a last ditch effort, you can always just tell her you'll pick up the $31 membership fee and to give it a year to see what she thinks.

I beg to differ. I think it depends on the CAP Sqaudron you are in. My squadron is very militery

Major Carrales

I find that CAP works best when everyone who is their wants to be their and is motivated to go by their passionate love for what CAP does.

Cadets who are forced to attend or seniors who are unhappy with certain things and who attend meeting because a Squadron Commander has begged them; often times have a difficult time of it.

It is our duty to make CAP meetings enjoyable.  I try to insure there is meaningful training and other items of interest going on.  It is not always easy, but our retention numbers will improve when we do such.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

alexalvarez

Ch, Lt. Col., Alex Alvarez
Alamo Composite Squadron, Bexar County Squadron, San Antonio, Texas
Group V Chaplain
Mitchell 1967, Earhart 1967, C/ Lt. Col. 1969
Fifty Year Member 2014

Major Carrales

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454