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17 year olds.

Started by westover, January 05, 2008, 01:25:29 AM

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westover

One of my senior members had an interesting thought or concern. Westover squadron is extremely new and I was told not to try and recruit 16 and 17 year olds because won't have enough time to make the program worth while unless they want to become senior members and pilots. Anyone have any thoughts on this? and what benefits could a high schooler have by joining with only 2 years before adulthood?
I will forward the replies to my flight. Thank you

Stonewall

Well, if you started a new squadron and don't have any advanced cadets, meaning NCOs or Officers, then perhaps a more mature cadet airman could fill that roll.  If you had 10 cadet airman and needed one to be the cadet commander, would you want the 12 year old or the 17 year old?
Serving since 1987.

MIKE

If they join before they are 19... they can remain a cadet until their 21st birthday.  It is not like they have to turn senior when they turn 18.
Mike Johnston

mikeylikey

You are crazy to turn any person away based on age.  I would go out looking for them no matter the age.  You never know, they could end up transitioning to the Officer side.  Plus the 17 year old may only be a Sophomore in HS.  OR he or she could stay active on the cadet side while they attend the local community college.  Just because they are close to graduating HS does not mean they are not going to find the program worth while.  

It is a shame those 17 year olds are finding CAP so late.  We need better Recruiting on a NATIONAL LEVEL (NHQ Pay attention!)
What's up monkeys?

Eclipse

4-5 years+ in the program is enough to make Spaatz (or it used to be, haven't done the math recently), and with a new program, more mature cadets will give you an advantage over trying to get things running with 12 years olds.

As long as they understand some of the limitations they will have after 18 (i.e. no o-rides) there's no reason to discourage their participation.

"That Others May Zoom"

CASH172

The only problem that I find with 17 yr olds that join late is that they sometimes do become discouraged they joined late.  One reason is that a 17 yr old may have to be placed underneath a 12 year old in the cadet chain of command.  While a 12 year could very much be mature and a great leader, the age difference just creates a very weird situation.  Also, the no COFs after 18 is another discouraging thing. 

Eclipse

You're correct, and the situation that an older cadet may find themselves in shoudl be clearly stated form day 1.

As to the COF issue, you can make up for that by having the cadet get involved in aircrew training.

"That Others May Zoom"

STARCH

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 05, 2008, 01:52:22 AM
You are crazy to turn any person away based on age.  I would go out looking for them no matter the age.  You never know, they could end up transitioning to the Officer side.  Plus the 17 year old may only be a Sophomore in HS.  OR he or she could stay active on the cadet side while they attend the local community college.  Just because they are close to graduating HS does not mean they are not going to find the program worth while.  
You're 100% correct.
My squadron commander joined when she was 17 and ended up getting her Spaatz right before she left the program at 21.

Nathan

Recruit who you want. Some cadets who have no aspirations for the Spaatz still want to get their Mitchell, which is perfectly doable in the 17-21 year old time frame.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

Stonewall

Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2008, 03:23:49 PM
Recruit who you want. Some cadets who have no aspirations for the Spaatz still want to get their Mitchell, which is perfectly doable in the 17-21 year old time frame.

Heck, you can join at 17 and have your Mitchell when you're 18.

I think most people, me included, would prefer to have younger recruits, but that doesn't mean I'd turn away someone who is 17, 18 or 65.

I'd also like to say that earning the Mitchell, Earhart, Eaker or Spaatz is not the be all/end all to one's life.  The Mitchell has done absolutely nothing for me in my life other than a ribbon I get to wear as a senior.  But I'd still have that if I hadn't gotten the Mitchell.  Sure, I got E-2 in the Army, but I had it coming anyway for "recruiting" a friend into the Army.  No doubt I learned a few extra things about aviation because I had to take a test, but I pretty much knew all that stuff anyway.  While I encourage each and every cadet to go as far as they can in the cadet program, I never set a specific long-term goal for any of them other than promoting 2 to 3 times a year, being active and enjoying the heck out of the program.  By default, they should earn one of the higher awards, learn and have fun.
Serving since 1987.

brasda91

Quote from: MIKE on January 05, 2008, 01:49:55 AM
If they join before they are 19... they can remain a cadet until their 21st birthday.  It is not like they have to turn senior when they turn 18.

This brings to mind a question.  At one time, if you were interested in joining CAP and you were 18, you automatically joined as a Senior.  I guess the new CAPR 39-2 changed that?  Or have I been thinking wrong the whole time?
Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron
www.kywgcap.org/ky011

Hawk200

Quote from: brasda91 on January 05, 2008, 07:43:33 PM
This brings to mind a question.  At one time, if you were interested in joining CAP and you were 18, you automatically joined as a Senior.  I guess the new CAPR 39-2 changed that?  Or have I been thinking wrong the whole time?

A lot of people have had this misimpression. When I joined in '91, the reg said that someone could join as a cadet up to prior to their 19th birthday. Many people thought that the "at least 18 to be a senior" meant that they could only join as a senior.

My own unit had three 18 YO's join as cadets. Then they all went to college in far away places and dropped out.

IceNine

#12
Here is where the confusion comes in the
39-2
2-1. General. Cadet membership in CAP is available to all young men and women who meet the eligibility requirements outlined in paragraph 2-2. Cadets who become members before their 19th birthday may retain their cadet status until they reach 21 years of age; however, senior membership is optional for all cadets at age 18 (see paragraph 3-5 for application procedures).

BUT,
2-2. Requirements for Initial Membership. All applicants for cadet membership must meet the following prerequisites:
a. Twelve years of age through 18 years of age. Note: Individuals applying for membership in a squadron that is participating in CAP's middle school initiative may join if they are below age 12 as long as they are attending at least the
This is where the before 19 comes insixth grade in the appropriate middle school. These squadrons are monitored by the Cadets and Senior Member Professional Development office at National Headquarters and have a distinguishing charter number that identifies them as participants of this program.
b. Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement.
c. Single or married and under age 18.

So it very clearly says must be under 18, but then in the grey area talks about being 19.  For my money I bet on the clear cut answer, and assume they are accounting for some phenomenon with the before 19 part
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

mikeylikey

Quote from: IceNine on January 05, 2008, 11:18:02 PM
a. Twelve years of age through 18 years of age.

The words "through 18" means to the end of 18.  Through anything is "to the end of"

Example "Count one through ten" would mean "say one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten".  You would stop at ten, as eleven falls after ten.

The same word use applies.  However, they should write the regs at a fifth grade level, and take out anything that may sound conflicting!
What's up monkeys?

IceNine

ok so we have 3 conflicts in this section

before 19
through 18
under 18

no wonder there is confusion
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

Eclipse

Quote from: IceNine on January 05, 2008, 11:26:53 PM
ok so we have 3 conflicts in this section

before 19
through 18
under 18

no wonder there is confusion

The first two mean the same thing, but the last one is clearly a contradiction to 1 & 2.

"That Others May Zoom"

MIKE

Not really. Taken in context.
Mike Johnston

afgeo4

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 05, 2008, 11:22:26 PM
Quote from: IceNine on January 05, 2008, 11:18:02 PM
a. Twelve years of age through 18 years of age.

The words "through 18" means to the end of 18.  Through anything is "to the end of"

Example "Count one through ten" would mean "say one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten".  You would stop at ten, as eleven falls after ten.

The same word use applies.  However, they should write the regs at a fifth grade level, and take out anything that may sound conflicting!
Umm negative. That's not what the regulation means. What it means is through to age 18 (not including 18). You know that and I know that and everyone else knows that.
GEORGE LURYE

Eclipse

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 06, 2008, 01:11:09 AM
Umm negative. That's not what the regulation means. What it means is through to age 18 (not including 18). You know that and I know that and everyone else knows that.

No, I really don't agree.

As written, it means until is says "19" on an ID card, you can join as a cadet.

"That Others May Zoom"

mikeylikey

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 06, 2008, 01:11:09 AM
Umm negative. That's not what the regulation means. What it means is through to age 18 (not including 18). You know that and I know that and everyone else knows that.

Then wouldn't it say "to 18"??



What's up monkeys?

RiverAux

2.2c means that if you are married you can only join as a cadet if you are under the age of 18

afgeo4


<from CAP Knowledgebase>

CAPR 39-2
Chapter 2 - Cadet Membership

2-2. Requirements for Initial Membership. All applicants for cadet membership must meet the following prerequisites:
a. Twelve years of age through 18 years of age. Note: Individuals applying for membership in a squadron that is participating in CAP's middle school initiative may join if they are below age 12 as long as they are attending at least the sixth grade in the appropriate middle school. These squadrons are monitored by the Cadet Programs Directorate at National Headquarters and have a distinguishing charter number that identifies them as participants of this program.
c. Single or married and under age 18.

These are quotes from the Regulation. I use paragraph C to explain the term "through". It is very specific.
GEORGE LURYE

SarDragon

Para c. is missing a comma that significantly changes the meaning.

Single or married and under age 18, is ambiguous and can be interpreted two ways.

Single or married, and under age 18, is probably incorrect. Marital status would have no meaning.

Single, or married and under age 18, is what was probably meant.

If you think commas are unimportant, consider the difference between:

... my parents, the Pope, and Mother Theresa ...

and

... my parents, the Pope and Mother Theresa ...

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

ZigZag911

I joined at 16 3/4 years of age....squadron was less than a year old, most of the 'charter member' cadets were a year or so younger than I was....caught up with them fairly quickly, got my Mitchell in 18 months, Earhart about 7-8 months afterwards....stayed cadet a total of about 3 years, enjoyed every minute.....became a senior during junior year of college, transitioning was tough, the "real" adults did not know what to do with me!

W3ZR

I wasnt even given an option the first time I joined,
(I was 18) or I would have went the Cadet route.

Not for the "bling", but for the discipline, I probably
would have stayed in and been a Captain by now.

Robert Montgomery, soon to be former Captain, CAP

DNall

Quote from: Stonewall on January 05, 2008, 01:28:36 AM
Well, if you started a new squadron and don't have any advanced cadets, meaning NCOs or Officers, then perhaps a more mature cadet airman could fill that roll.  If you had 10 cadet airman and needed one to be the cadet commander, would you want the 12 year old or the 17 year old?
No offense on this, but... If you have 10 cadet amn, you not only don't need a cadet commander, you need not to have one, nor flt CC or any other officer position.

You need to cover those roles as an adult cadet programs officer until there are people with the experience, maturity, & competence to do the job. Otherwise you are just setting them up for failure individually & allowing them to deliver failure to the group.

You need to spend your time intensely training up a couple flt sgts. Then, you need to work on expansion. When you have two flights with consistent attendance & are a year in, with a half dozen good potential flt sgts, couple being mid-grade NCOs, then you can start working on a couple flt CC candidates. People learn from failure when they are in a position to do so, not when they are tossed in over their heads & allowed to be overwhelmed. That just teaches them to take on things they aren't able to handle alone & give up when it gets too hard.

NHQ has a new manual out that covers this pretty well. I strongly advise giving it a look.


Now, far as recruiting 16-17yo cadets, you absolutely should. What you do or do not get out of the program has very little to do with how far you progress in the testing/promotions. We don't have a cadet program to make spaatz cadets or even mitchell cadets. We have a program to shape young people, and that happens by being a part of it, not by being turned away. I'd also note that it only takes about 18mos to make mitchell. For a 17yo HS junior, they do have time for that before college. And yes, they may choose (as a lot do) to continue participating in Wg/Gp level activities & promoting while at college, even if they can't necessarily participate in the traditional sense.

SAR-EMT1

FYI, I did the math... under the new program the minimum time to get to
C/2nd Lt from C/AB is 17 months. ( Not including the ROTC shortcut) *

*  A cadet at a service academy or enrolled in a collegiate ROTC must wait only 1 month between promotions.

C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

mikeylikey

^ I never agreed with that.  What makes them so special??

What's up monkeys?

MIKE

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 12, 2008, 05:04:48 AM
*  A cadet at a service academy or enrolled in a collegiate ROTC must wait only 1 month between promotions.

Cite please... It aint in CAPR 52-16 Chapter 6... Thats for JROTC. 
Mike Johnston

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: MIKE on January 13, 2008, 03:50:19 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 12, 2008, 05:04:48 AM
*  A cadet at a service academy or enrolled in a collegiate ROTC must wait only 1 month between promotions.

Cite please... It aint in CAPR 52-16 Chapter 6... Thats for JROTC. 

I know the reg cites JROTC, however, when I was in college myself, the CAP faction at the det stated what I had above. A call to suzie parker verified this.  This was fall of 2003
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

JayT

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 14, 2008, 05:33:02 PM
Quote from: MIKE on January 13, 2008, 03:50:19 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 12, 2008, 05:04:48 AM
*  A cadet at a service academy or enrolled in a collegiate ROTC must wait only 1 month between promotions.

Cite please... It aint in CAPR 52-16 Chapter 6... Thats for JROTC. 

I know the reg cites JROTC, however, when I was in college myself, the CAP faction at the det stated what I had above. A call to suzie parker verified this.  This was fall of 2003


So why did you cite a regulation for something that has nothing to do with what you said?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: JThemann on January 14, 2008, 10:45:19 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 14, 2008, 05:33:02 PM
Quote from: MIKE on January 13, 2008, 03:50:19 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 12, 2008, 05:04:48 AM
*  A cadet at a service academy or enrolled in a collegiate ROTC must wait only 1 month between promotions.

Cite please... It aint in CAPR 52-16 Chapter 6... Thats for JROTC. 

I know the reg cites JROTC, however, when I was in college myself, the CAP faction at the det stated what I had above. A call to suzie parker verified this.  This was fall of 2003


So why did you cite a regulation for something that has nothing to do with what you said?

Suzie gave me to understand that the reg also applied to collegiate types as well.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

DNall

I don't disagree with allowing one month promotions for collegiate level ROTC or service acads. We have a really hard time retaining cadets after they go off to college. At that point they are finishing up the program out of pride. There's no longer any real world benefit for them (enlistment or credit). However, it would need to be added to the reg. Just saying those too are included in the JROTC waiver doesn't work. If that were the case then you'd still need 2-3-4 years of experience combined between JROTC & the college level. That would exclude people with no JROTC background.

Just to clarify, you don't need to be active in a JROTC program to begin or continue on such a waiver. It's satisfactory completion of a number of years waivers time in grade through progressive levels of the program. You can discontinue JROTC & stay on the waiver up to the level you've attained.

As far as why that waiver is there... it was originally only for AFJROTC, and the point of it was that the curriculum is basically the same (being it was taken from ours when they got started), as well as the leadership & experience in a military based program. They still satisfy all the same requirements as anyone else, so it is completely fair. Those kids can be a real benefit to your program if you'll utilize them in their strengths & help them with their weaknesses. if you do that, you'll find they are developmentally ready to serve at a higher grade position fairly quick. That's why that program is there.

afgeo4

Quote from: SarDragon on January 06, 2008, 09:01:21 AM
Para c. is missing a comma that significantly changes the meaning.

Single or married and under age 18, is ambiguous and can be interpreted two ways.

Single or married, and under age 18, is probably incorrect. Marital status would have no meaning.

Single, or married and under age 18, is what was probably meant.

If you think commas are unimportant, consider the difference between:

... my parents, the Pope, and Mother Theresa ...

and

... my parents, the Pope and Mother Theresa ...

YMMV.

It's exactly marital status that has meaning. It has to be an exception, just like a cadet who is pregnant.
GEORGE LURYE

afgeo4

Quote from: K3BM on January 07, 2008, 05:38:11 AM
I wasnt even given an option the first time I joined,
(I was 18) or I would have went the Cadet route.

Not for the "bling", but for the discipline, I probably
would have stayed in and been a Captain by now.


That's because there really is NO option. If you're 18 when you join, you're a senior member.
GEORGE LURYE

afgeo4

#35
Quote from: DNall on January 15, 2008, 04:09:58 AM
I don't disagree with allowing one month promotions for collegiate level ROTC or service acads. We have a really hard time retaining cadets after they go off to college. At that point they are finishing up the program out of pride. There's no longer any real world benefit for them (enlistment or credit). However, it would need to be added to the reg. Just saying those too are included in the JROTC waiver doesn't work. If that were the case then you'd still need 2-3-4 years of experience combined between JROTC & the college level. That would exclude people with no JROTC background.

Just to clarify, you don't need to be active in a JROTC program to begin or continue on such a waiver. It's satisfactory completion of a number of years waivers time in grade through progressive levels of the program. You can discontinue JROTC & stay on the waiver up to the level you've attained.

As far as why that waiver is there... it was originally only for AFJROTC, and the point of it was that the curriculum is basically the same (being it was taken from ours when they got started), as well as the leadership & experience in a military based program. They still satisfy all the same requirements as anyone else, so it is completely fair. Those kids can be a real benefit to your program if you'll utilize them in their strengths & help them with their weaknesses. if you do that, you'll find they are developmentally ready to serve at a higher grade position fairly quick. That's why that program is there.
The only waiver is for cadets with current JROTC standing (any branch) and at least 2 years Time In Service (TIS) as a cadet.

Cadets with 2 years in JROTC get to promote at accelerated rate up to Mitchell Award
Cadets with 3 years in JROTC get to promote at accelerated rate up to Earhart Award
Cadets with 4 years in JROTC get to promote at accelerated rate up to Eaker Award

Those JROTC cadets who've completed the AFJROTC Summer Leadership School are credited with an encampment. All other branches are not.

ROTC cadets are given very different training. 1st and 2nd year cadets/midshipmen are given VERY limited leadership training. Instead, they focus on familiarization with the ways of the military and their specific branch. The first 2 years are introductory. It is after the cadet/midshipman goes to the cadet basic training in summer between sophomore and junior year that they start becoming leaders. By that time, most cadets are either 20 or 21, so it's a moot point. That's why ROTC cadets aren't given the same privileges in CAP.
GEORGE LURYE

brasda91

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 17, 2008, 06:02:27 AM

That's because there really is NO option. If you're 18 when you join, you're a senior member.


That's what I thought.  But everything National publishes on Cadet Programs says 12-18.  I take that to mean if you're 18, you have the option to join as a cadet.  Otherwise it would say 12-17.  I dunno anymore.
Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron
www.kywgcap.org/ky011

afgeo4

So call membership services and ask them.
GEORGE LURYE

mikeylikey

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 17, 2008, 06:06:16 AM
ROTC cadets are given very different training. 1st and 2nd year cadets/midshipmen are given VERY limited leadership training. Instead, they focus on familiarization with the ways of the military and their specific branch. The first 2 years are introductory. It is after the cadet/midshipman goes to the cadet basic training in summer between sophomore and junior year that they start becoming leaders. By that time, most cadets are either 20 or 21, so it's a moot point. That's why ROTC cadets aren't given the same privileges in CAP.

Not exactly.  The AROTC program has a successive leadership development program that begins day 1.  The books and presentations always have underlying leadership principles and doctrine.  I would say ROTC in college is better at the presentation of leadership subjects to Cadet than the JROTC counterpart.  It is a shame More credit is not given for ROTC classes in College.  Perhaps we should change that!  Lets say a 21 year old ROTC Cadet decides to join CAP.  Depending on what year of ROTC she is in she should come into CAP at an advanced Rank.  Say 1 year ROTC=immediate 2nd LT (don't wait 6 months), 2 years= 1st LT, 3 years=Capt.  I have seen advanced appointment waivers already go up the chain in PAWG for Cadets transitioning to CAP Officer and they only have 2 years of ROTC completed, and used the ROTC as the basis for the request for advanced grade.

What's up monkeys?

afgeo4

Which is fine and I agree with that if it comes to senior membership. The topic was of relevance of ROTC to Cadet membership.

I have many friends who have completed and/or are in ROTC detachments of all 4 branches. The leadership training they are given in the first two years is fairly conceptual. Actual leadership roles aren't really given out until the Junior year. That is quite different from Academies, where low leadership positions are given out in Sophomore year.
GEORGE LURYE

mikeylikey

^ I can only relate to AROTC programs as that is what I work for currently.  In my Battalion, Sophomores are given leadership roles in the Cadet Companies.  They are also evaluated on a continual basis.  The leadership course was designed by Harvard a few years back, and the books were designed by top business leaders and a few Officers from the Army War College.   

I have a friend working at the AFROTC DET across the campus park from me.  I have seen that their first two years are nothing short of classes on air/space/careers.  They are considered "nothings" until they get back from summer camp and contract.  Then the Leadership instruction begins. 

Now in Army, a Junior's leadership training takes a back seat to learning battle drills and how to fight in their preparation for "Camp". 
What's up monkeys?

floridacyclist

In our squadron (which is not new) we do not actively recruit older teens simply because we can spend our limited time and resources better elsewhere on younger prospects. Many older teenages have already developed other interests and may often not take too well to being ordered around by a younger cadet. We would rather catch them young and let them grow into the program as they grow into adulthood.

That said, if I had a new squadron and needed older teens that could quickly transition into leadership roles, I would be looking harder for them. At the same time, we do not turn anyone down based on age and I will target specific youths on a case-by-case basis. For example, the young lady I referred to a neighboring squadron who is 17 years old with 3 years of JROTC and a deep love of the military will probably make a fine cadet if she joins as she has a year and a half and is A) eligible for accelerated promotions, and B) is mature enough to recognize the need to follow orders from 13 and 14yos until she works her way past the first phase or two..
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org