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17 year olds.

Started by westover, January 05, 2008, 01:25:29 AM

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westover

One of my senior members had an interesting thought or concern. Westover squadron is extremely new and I was told not to try and recruit 16 and 17 year olds because won't have enough time to make the program worth while unless they want to become senior members and pilots. Anyone have any thoughts on this? and what benefits could a high schooler have by joining with only 2 years before adulthood?
I will forward the replies to my flight. Thank you

Stonewall

Well, if you started a new squadron and don't have any advanced cadets, meaning NCOs or Officers, then perhaps a more mature cadet airman could fill that roll.  If you had 10 cadet airman and needed one to be the cadet commander, would you want the 12 year old or the 17 year old?
Serving since 1987.

MIKE

If they join before they are 19... they can remain a cadet until their 21st birthday.  It is not like they have to turn senior when they turn 18.
Mike Johnston

mikeylikey

You are crazy to turn any person away based on age.  I would go out looking for them no matter the age.  You never know, they could end up transitioning to the Officer side.  Plus the 17 year old may only be a Sophomore in HS.  OR he or she could stay active on the cadet side while they attend the local community college.  Just because they are close to graduating HS does not mean they are not going to find the program worth while.  

It is a shame those 17 year olds are finding CAP so late.  We need better Recruiting on a NATIONAL LEVEL (NHQ Pay attention!)
What's up monkeys?

Eclipse

4-5 years+ in the program is enough to make Spaatz (or it used to be, haven't done the math recently), and with a new program, more mature cadets will give you an advantage over trying to get things running with 12 years olds.

As long as they understand some of the limitations they will have after 18 (i.e. no o-rides) there's no reason to discourage their participation.

"That Others May Zoom"

CASH172

The only problem that I find with 17 yr olds that join late is that they sometimes do become discouraged they joined late.  One reason is that a 17 yr old may have to be placed underneath a 12 year old in the cadet chain of command.  While a 12 year could very much be mature and a great leader, the age difference just creates a very weird situation.  Also, the no COFs after 18 is another discouraging thing. 

Eclipse

You're correct, and the situation that an older cadet may find themselves in shoudl be clearly stated form day 1.

As to the COF issue, you can make up for that by having the cadet get involved in aircrew training.

"That Others May Zoom"

STARCH

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 05, 2008, 01:52:22 AM
You are crazy to turn any person away based on age.  I would go out looking for them no matter the age.  You never know, they could end up transitioning to the Officer side.  Plus the 17 year old may only be a Sophomore in HS.  OR he or she could stay active on the cadet side while they attend the local community college.  Just because they are close to graduating HS does not mean they are not going to find the program worth while.  
You're 100% correct.
My squadron commander joined when she was 17 and ended up getting her Spaatz right before she left the program at 21.

Nathan

Recruit who you want. Some cadets who have no aspirations for the Spaatz still want to get their Mitchell, which is perfectly doable in the 17-21 year old time frame.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

Stonewall

Quote from: Nathan on January 05, 2008, 03:23:49 PM
Recruit who you want. Some cadets who have no aspirations for the Spaatz still want to get their Mitchell, which is perfectly doable in the 17-21 year old time frame.

Heck, you can join at 17 and have your Mitchell when you're 18.

I think most people, me included, would prefer to have younger recruits, but that doesn't mean I'd turn away someone who is 17, 18 or 65.

I'd also like to say that earning the Mitchell, Earhart, Eaker or Spaatz is not the be all/end all to one's life.  The Mitchell has done absolutely nothing for me in my life other than a ribbon I get to wear as a senior.  But I'd still have that if I hadn't gotten the Mitchell.  Sure, I got E-2 in the Army, but I had it coming anyway for "recruiting" a friend into the Army.  No doubt I learned a few extra things about aviation because I had to take a test, but I pretty much knew all that stuff anyway.  While I encourage each and every cadet to go as far as they can in the cadet program, I never set a specific long-term goal for any of them other than promoting 2 to 3 times a year, being active and enjoying the heck out of the program.  By default, they should earn one of the higher awards, learn and have fun.
Serving since 1987.

brasda91

Quote from: MIKE on January 05, 2008, 01:49:55 AM
If they join before they are 19... they can remain a cadet until their 21st birthday.  It is not like they have to turn senior when they turn 18.

This brings to mind a question.  At one time, if you were interested in joining CAP and you were 18, you automatically joined as a Senior.  I guess the new CAPR 39-2 changed that?  Or have I been thinking wrong the whole time?
Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron
www.kywgcap.org/ky011

Hawk200

Quote from: brasda91 on January 05, 2008, 07:43:33 PM
This brings to mind a question.  At one time, if you were interested in joining CAP and you were 18, you automatically joined as a Senior.  I guess the new CAPR 39-2 changed that?  Or have I been thinking wrong the whole time?

A lot of people have had this misimpression. When I joined in '91, the reg said that someone could join as a cadet up to prior to their 19th birthday. Many people thought that the "at least 18 to be a senior" meant that they could only join as a senior.

My own unit had three 18 YO's join as cadets. Then they all went to college in far away places and dropped out.

IceNine

#12
Here is where the confusion comes in the
39-2
2-1. General. Cadet membership in CAP is available to all young men and women who meet the eligibility requirements outlined in paragraph 2-2. Cadets who become members before their 19th birthday may retain their cadet status until they reach 21 years of age; however, senior membership is optional for all cadets at age 18 (see paragraph 3-5 for application procedures).

BUT,
2-2. Requirements for Initial Membership. All applicants for cadet membership must meet the following prerequisites:
a. Twelve years of age through 18 years of age. Note: Individuals applying for membership in a squadron that is participating in CAP's middle school initiative may join if they are below age 12 as long as they are attending at least the
This is where the before 19 comes insixth grade in the appropriate middle school. These squadrons are monitored by the Cadets and Senior Member Professional Development office at National Headquarters and have a distinguishing charter number that identifies them as participants of this program.
b. Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement.
c. Single or married and under age 18.

So it very clearly says must be under 18, but then in the grey area talks about being 19.  For my money I bet on the clear cut answer, and assume they are accounting for some phenomenon with the before 19 part
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

mikeylikey

Quote from: IceNine on January 05, 2008, 11:18:02 PM
a. Twelve years of age through 18 years of age.

The words "through 18" means to the end of 18.  Through anything is "to the end of"

Example "Count one through ten" would mean "say one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten".  You would stop at ten, as eleven falls after ten.

The same word use applies.  However, they should write the regs at a fifth grade level, and take out anything that may sound conflicting!
What's up monkeys?

IceNine

ok so we have 3 conflicts in this section

before 19
through 18
under 18

no wonder there is confusion
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

Eclipse

Quote from: IceNine on January 05, 2008, 11:26:53 PM
ok so we have 3 conflicts in this section

before 19
through 18
under 18

no wonder there is confusion

The first two mean the same thing, but the last one is clearly a contradiction to 1 & 2.

"That Others May Zoom"

MIKE

Not really. Taken in context.
Mike Johnston

afgeo4

Quote from: mikeylikey on January 05, 2008, 11:22:26 PM
Quote from: IceNine on January 05, 2008, 11:18:02 PM
a. Twelve years of age through 18 years of age.

The words "through 18" means to the end of 18.  Through anything is "to the end of"

Example "Count one through ten" would mean "say one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten".  You would stop at ten, as eleven falls after ten.

The same word use applies.  However, they should write the regs at a fifth grade level, and take out anything that may sound conflicting!
Umm negative. That's not what the regulation means. What it means is through to age 18 (not including 18). You know that and I know that and everyone else knows that.
GEORGE LURYE

Eclipse

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 06, 2008, 01:11:09 AM
Umm negative. That's not what the regulation means. What it means is through to age 18 (not including 18). You know that and I know that and everyone else knows that.

No, I really don't agree.

As written, it means until is says "19" on an ID card, you can join as a cadet.

"That Others May Zoom"

mikeylikey

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 06, 2008, 01:11:09 AM
Umm negative. That's not what the regulation means. What it means is through to age 18 (not including 18). You know that and I know that and everyone else knows that.

Then wouldn't it say "to 18"??



What's up monkeys?