The end of "U.S. CAP"?

[Eagle400]

Tony Pineda was the one behind the whole "United States Civil Air Patrol" thing.  Now that he is gone for good, will CAP continue to be known as the "U.S. CAP"? 

[CASH172]

I'm afraid we've just invested too much money into the whole USCAP thing.  I've seen a lot of people with the new nametapes.  Plus the new USCAP command patch is everywhere, all of our corporate aircraft, vans, and new binders too. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

It will take a few years, but it will be gone.

[jeders]

I'm afraid we've just invested too much money into the whole USCAP thing.  I've seen a lot of people with the new nametapes.  Plus the new USCAP command patch is everywhere, all of our corporate aircraft, vans, and new binders too. 

Well there was a large cost to switch to USCAP when we had had just CAP for so long. I personally don't see any reason to keep the US in our name and am hoping that it will soon go away. Of course if none of us peons complain to the higher ups, we may be stuck with it for a while.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Please explain to me what is the problem with having "U.S." in CAP.  Why does this cause such heartburn to some?

[JayT]

Some people view the 'U.S.' as an attempt to futher distance ourself from the U.S. Air Force, rather then act as a subcommand within the USAF

[dwb]

Please explain to me what is the problem with having "U.S." in CAP.  Why does this cause such heartburn to some?

Well, I'm not answering for anyone else, but my personal opinion is that:

1. The name of the organization is "Civil Air Patrol"
2. The justification they put out was lame
3. It's a whole lot of change for no real benefit, at a cost to the volunteer membership
4. It's indicitive of misplaced priorities; why spend all this time adding "U.S." to everything when we should be working on our missions and keeping people in the organization

[Eagle400]

Please explain to me what is the problem with having "U.S." in CAP.  Why does this cause such heartburn to some?

Gladly.

NAME AND STATUS
The name of the Corporation shall be "Civil Air Patrol" and its status is that of the volunteer civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force. The Corporation may also be referred to as "Civil Air Patrol" or by such other titles as may be approved in the Bylaws.

NAME AND CORPORATE SEAL
2.1 The name of Civil Air Patrol may be stated by any of the following:
a. "Civil Air Patrol"
b. "Civil Air Patrol, incorporated under Special Act of Congress approved July 1, 1946, Public Law 476, 79th Congress"
2.2 Each unit, including National Headquarters, shall use a name expressing its designation, the words "Civil Air Patrol" and may also refer to its status as the United States Air Force Auxiliary as set forth in regulations.

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name "Civil Air Patrol" and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

a) Volunteer Civilian Auxiliary. - The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government.

Emphasis mine.

None of these documents refer to "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" or allow for the use of that name in any document or title.  In order to legally use "U.S. Civil Air Patrol", the Constitution & Bylaws and USC would have to be changed to include "U.S. Civil Air Patrol."

In addition, "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" makes the organization seem more official than it really is.  It is also unnecessarily redundant to have "U.S. Civil Air Patrol, U.S. Air Force Auxiliary."

[jeders]

Please explain to me what is the problem with having "U.S." in CAP.  Why does this cause such heartburn to some?

Well, I'm not answering for anyone else, but my personal opinion is that:

1. The name of the organization is "Civil Air Patrol"
2. The justification they put out was lame
3. It's a whole lot of change for no real benefit, at a cost to the volunteer membership
4. It's indicitive of misplaced priorities; why spend all this time adding "U.S." to everything when we should be working on our missions and keeping people in the organization

That pretty much explains it for me.

Also, to add to my previous post, I still haven't bought a single item with USCAP on it, I'm holding out til the very last second, because I'm pretty sure it'll get changed back to how it should used to be.

[Major Carrales]

Please explain to me what is the problem with having "U.S." in CAP.  Why does this cause such heartburn to some?

Glady,

AGENDISM!

[Eagle400]

Please explain to me what is the problem with having "U.S." in CAP.  Why does this cause such heartburn to some?

Glady,

AGENDISM!

Apparently, you haven't read the CAP Constitution & Bylaws or the U.S. Code when it comes to this issue.   

[Major Carrales]

Please explain to me what is the problem with having "U.S." in CAP.  Why does this cause such heartburn to some?

Glady,

AGENDISM!

Apparently, you haven't read the CAP Constitution & Bylaws or the U.S. Code when it comes to this issue.   

Well, i have read them.  But I have also read your posts and the posts of others and...yup...there it is...AGENDISM.

You have an agenda...you HATED Pineda.  You transferred your hatred of him to thing that happened while he was in office.  Your agenda was to see him gone, or at least talk a mean talk about it.  He's gone.  You are now OBSOLETE.

So, now you bring up the US Flag and USCAP... residual elements of your agenda.

The fight between the two opposing sides is now at an end.  Now, join CAP...as a patron for $35.  But you can, or won't...likely because of your residual agenda.

What makes you think that anyone is going to forget these agendistic posts of yours should you rejojn?

[MIKE]

Didn't we have this poll once already?  I wouldn't be surprised if it was started by the same individual.

[Eagle400]

What makes you think that anyone is going to forget these agendistic posts of yours should you rejojn?

What makes you think anyone will recognize me once I rejoin?  That sword cuts both ways, Major. 

[PHall]

What makes you think that anyone is going to forget these agendistic posts of yours should you rejojn?

What makes you think anyone will recognize me once I rejoin?  That sword cuts both ways, Major. 

Oh believe me, some of us will recognize you in a second!

[Eagle400]

What makes you think that anyone is going to forget these agendistic posts of yours should you rejojn?

What makes you think anyone will recognize me once I rejoin?  That sword cuts both ways, Major. 

Oh believe me, some of us will recognize you in a second!

Given that my name appears nowhere on any of the forums I am a part of, including my picture (or a picture of me, for that matter), that is highly unlikely.  Go bully someone else! 

Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. ... It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation...at the hand of an intolerant society. - U.S. Supreme Court, McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, 1995

[Major Carrales]

What makes you think that anyone is going to forget these agendistic posts of yours should you rejojn?

What makes you think anyone will recognize me once I rejoin?  That sword cuts both ways, Major. 

Oh believe me, some of us will recognize you in a second!

Given that my name appears nowhere on any of the forums I am a part of, including my picture (or a picture of me, for that matter), that is highly unlikely.  Go bully someone else! 

Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. ... It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation...at the hand of an intolerant society. - U.S. Supreme Court, McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, 1995

You were a C/Maj in An east Coast Squadron, one of the Mid-Atlanic States. Planned on a Military Career, but was denied.  It's a common story

Plus, that you do this...Anonymity, is a violation of the core values.

[AlphaSigOU]

Given that my name appears nowhere on any of the forums I am a part of, including my picture (or a picture of me, for that matter), that is highly unlikely.  Go bully someone else!

Don't be so sure about that... eventually you'll slip up and someone will figure out who you are. Anonymity doesn't last for very long. You don't have to publish a name or a picture... writing styles can be giveaways as well. Remember the telegraphers with distinctive 'fists'? They were identified by the manner in which they transmitted code. Ever so subtle, but recognizable, nonetheless.

I don't have to hide who I am... my signature block identifies me in practically every CAP forum I participate in. There are several pictures of me on the Web. My user name appears in other non-CAP forums. And I am a published author as well - though my book will never make the New York Times bestseller list.

To each his own, I guess...

[RiverAux]

I don't think we'll see any immediate changes at the next few major meetings.  Maybe in a year or two we might get rid of the nametapes.  While I don't particularly like the new command badges, they don't bother me nearly as much as the very small US in them seems like more of a separate part of the symbol rather than being obviously part of the name. 

[dwb]

Anonymity, is a violation of the core values.

Um... what?

[Viper QA]

I was not really crazy about the U.S. CAP stuff from the beginning, but I think it is here to stay, at least for a while. As others have mentioned there has been a great deal of $$$ spent to make U.S. CAP come into being. That will be the driving force against going back to just "CAP." If it happens at all it will be gradually & over an extended period of time.

Personally, I really don't care one way or the other. At the unit level it really has little bearing on our week to week operations.

Just my 2 cents.

[mikeylikey]

I would be happy if they just changed the name using the current procedures.  I don't really care one way or another either......except NHQ (TP) did it with a "run-around" the procedures.  Just get together and vote on it!

[Major Carrales]

Anonymity, is a violation of the core values.

Um... what?

To hide behind a screen name making comments about issues and individuals with no intention of standing behind them in the open is a violation of the core value of integrity.

At it's base level integrity means, "strength from within."  Someone who will only be "bold" from a hidden position is not someone with integrity...it is a form of cowardice.

Let the "spademan" come out from behind his moniker...let him face us.  Let him be a character of integrity.  No one is going to "smite" him.  I mean Chuck Corway, Kach, myself and a host of others have the chutzpah to place our real identity on the line.  This forces us to speak honestly.  That way, when I encounter these individuals I know something abut their beliefs.

Otherwise you take advantage of placing others at a "disadvantage."

The moral of the story is...

"Stand by what you say at all times...or its not worth saying."

[RogueLeader]

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who thought about the integrity issue . . .

but on topic, I hope the the US CAP tapes will go. The Command Patch, I could go either way on- it doesn't really bother me.  I do hope that the reversed Flags stay, or at least are optional.

[Skyray]

At the present, I don't have a dog in this fight, and I pretty much don't care.  If I rejoin, I will do pretty much what the rules have been changed to say in the interim while I was gone unless you guys change the uniform to fuchsia pantaloons and chartreuse blouses.

Whatever your prejudice about the "U.S." try to remember that every change costs the membership money and increases Vanguard's profit.  My take on the short time I have been watching Brigadier General Courter is that the membership is going to find there is a lot more deference to their wishes than they have known for a long time--and that is a good thing.

Back when I joined, Major General Harwell was selling a uniform regulation to move the name tag from the left pocket to the right pocket.  And he did just that, sold it.  I remember him grabbing me at the uniform booth at my wing conference and demonstrating the advantages of the change to two bird colonels.  Sorry guys, I was not as politically astute back then and I have no idea who they were, just that there were two of them.  I suspect that they were members of the National Board.  But that is the right way to do uniform changes.  I suspect that General Courter will return to persuasion as a tool, rather than intimidation.

Lot's of luck on your "U.S."  Could you try to get them to go back to medal "CAP" cut outs?  I still have a drawer full of them.

[Viper QA]

Please explain to me what is the problem with having "U.S." in CAP.  Why does this cause such heartburn to some?

Well, I'm not answering for anyone else, but my personal opinion is that:

1. The name of the organization is "Civil Air Patrol"
2. The justification they put out was lame
3. It's a whole lot of change for no real benefit, at a cost to the volunteer membership
4. It's indicative of misplaced priorities; why spend all this time adding "U.S." to everything when we should be working on our missions and keeping people in the organization

I agree with all of the points made above, but now that the organization & more importantly, the volunteer membership have spent $$$ on changing to U.S. CAP, I just hope they leave it alone. I would have voted against it if I had a vote, but I didn't.

[Eagle400]

I agree with all of the points made above, but now that the organization & more importantly, the volunteer membership have spent $$$ on changing to U.S. CAP, I just hope they leave it alone. I would have voted against it if I had a vote, but I didn't.

How difficult is it to remove embroidered thread?  That's all you'd have to do to the tapes that say, "U.S. Civil Air Patrol."  Just remove the "U.S." 

[dwb]

To hide behind a screen name making comments about issues and individuals with no intention of standing behind them in the open is a violation of the core value of integrity.

Do you have the same opinion of anonymous whistleblowers?

Does anonymity sometimes embolden people to say things they wouldn't otherwise say?  Perhaps.  But it also provides a shield for people who want to exercise their integrity in situations when doing so would harm them.

I don't consider anonymous posting on a CAP message board to inherently lack integrity.  I think an individual inherently lacks integrity, and if they happen to use their real name, or they happen to use a screen name, it's pretty much the same thing.

[Skyray]

To hide behind a screen name making comments about issues and individuals with no intention of standing behind them in the open is a violation of the core value of integrity.

Do you have the same opinion of anonymous whistleblowers?

Does anonymity sometimes embolden people to say things they wouldn't otherwise say?  Perhaps.  But it also provides a shield for people who want to exercise their integrity in situations when doing so would harm them.

I don't consider anonymous posting on a CAP message board to inherently lack integrity.  I think an individual inherently lacks integrity, and if they happen to use their real name, or they happen to use a screen name, it's pretty much the same thing.

Hey, Justin.  There is a thread on this called "Anonymity" and your view would really be welcome there.  I would just say that the problem you describe is more likely to be caused by a lack of integrity up the chain from the poster.  What Major Carrales is talking about is the poster that hides his identity to spread hate and discontent.

[Major Carrales]

To hide behind a screen name making comments about issues and individuals with no intention of standing behind them in the open is a violation of the core value of integrity.

Do you have the same opinion of anonymous whistleblowers?

Does anonymity sometimes embolden people to say things they wouldn't otherwise say?  Perhaps.  But it also provides a shield for people who want to exercise their integrity in situations when doing so would harm them.

I don't consider anonymous posting on a CAP message board to inherently lack integrity.  I think an individual inherently lacks integrity, and if they happen to use their real name, or they happen to use a screen name, it's pretty much the same thing.

A Whistle blower should be bold enough to blow their whistle in the open.  To put it on teh lien because they know they are in the RIGHT.  They are protected by the virture of being correct.  In an nation where "facing one's accuser" is a "Right of Man" taking pot shots from behind such a shield is Cowardice!

Yes, and I am mainly pointing this at Threadsters that take such pot shots.

[Eagle400]

What Major Carrales is talking about is the poster that hides his identity to spread hate and discontent.

It is not my intention to spread hate or discontent, sir.  Regarding Pineda... I do not hate the man, I just have a big distaste for bad leadership.  I'm glad he is gone, but I'll never forget how horribly he abused his power by replacing good wing commanders and 2b'ing members who didn't deserve it.  In other words, I hated the actions of Tony Pineda, not the man himself.

As far as spreading discontent... well, not everyone is going to be pleased with the fact that I post on the good, the bad and the ugly about CAP.  I can see how that can be construed as "spreading discontent", but I can assure you that this is not my intention.  I have posted good things on here, and even made known some ideas I have for improving CAP.   

My intent is to learn more about CAP than I knew yesterday so I can be of better service when I return.  The program has changed a bit since I was last in.  If what I say disrupts the conversation, then slap me on the wrist and move on!  Quibbling about my behavior is not going to change CAP or do much beyond derailing the thread and making the moderators more likely to lock it.       

[PHall]

What Major Carrales is talking about is the poster that hides his identity to spread hate and discontent.

It is not my intention to spread hate or discontent, sir.  Regarding Pineda... I do not hate the man, I just have a big distaste for bad leadership.  I'm glad he is gone, but I'll never forget how horribly he abused his power by replacing good wing commanders and 2b'ing members who didn't deserve it.  In other words, I hated the actions of Tony Pineda, not the man himself.

As far as spreading discontent... well, not everyone is going to be pleased with the fact that I post on the good, the bad and the ugly about CAP.  I can see how that can be construed as "spreading discontent", but I can assure you that this is not my intention.  I have posted good things on here, and even made known some ideas I have for improving CAP.   

My intent is to learn more about CAP than I knew yesterday so I can be of better service when I return.  The program has changed a bit since I was last in.  If what I say disrupts the conversation, then slap me on the wrist and move on!  Quibbling about my behavior is not going to change CAP or do much beyond derailing the thread and making the moderators more likely to lock it.       

Hahahahahahahahahaha!    That's your best one yet.  Since when have you ever been happy about anything happening in CAP, other then the Pineda affair?

You openly admit that you are not a current member and probably won't be for some time to come, but you seem to have this need to comment on just about everything CAP.

If you feel this strongly about the organization then get off your butt and rejoin.
But if all you're going to do is sit outside the fence and direct your barbs at us on how badly we're doing, how about taking down the road?

[Eagle400]

Hahahahahahahahahaha!    That's your best one yet.  Since when have you ever been happy about anything happening in CAP, other then the Pineda affair?

You openly admit that you are not a current member and probably won't be for some time to come, but you seem to have this need to comment on just about everything CAP.

If you feel this strongly about the organization then get off your butt and rejoin.
But if all you're going to do is sit outside the fence and direct your barbs at us on how badly we're doing, how about taking down the road?

[Major Carrales]

Hahahahahahahahahaha!    That's your best one yet.  Since when have you ever been happy about anything happening in CAP, other then the Pineda affair?

You openly admit that you are not a current member and probably won't be for some time to come, but you seem to have this need to comment on just about everything CAP.

If you feel this strongly about the organization then get off your butt and rejoin.
But if all you're going to do is sit outside the fence and direct your barbs at us on how badly we're doing, how about taking down the road?

Sometimes "beating the dead horse" better allows the maggots to eat it and return it to the environment.  Pity all you know is anti-Pineda rants (which are now as dated as "Dewey defeats Truman" or "Dukakis in '88") and a hatred for the reverse flag patch.

I know you are trying to get this thread locked...it won't change the facts.

[baronet68]

Is there some kind of 'ignore' link I can click so I don't have to sift through the posts of certain people?

[Lancer]

Is there some kind of 'ignore' link I can click so I don't have to sift through the posts of certain people?

That would be a USEFUL feature Capt. Moore, it would allow us to filter out the anti-AGENDISM.

[Major Carrales]

Is there some kind of 'ignore' link I can click so I don't have to sift through the posts of certain people?

That would be a USEFUL feature Capt. Moore, it would allow us to filter out the anti-AGENDISM.

Bupkes!

[SarDragon]

I agree with all of the points made above, but now that the organization & more importantly, the volunteer membership have spent $$$ on changing to U.S. CAP, I just hope they leave it alone. I would have voted against it if I had a vote, but I didn't.

How difficult is it to remove embroidered thread?  That's all you'd have to do to the tapes that say, "U.S. Civil Air Patrol."  Just remove the "U.S." 

Try it some time, and see what you are left with. Remember the discussion about removing wing patches and the "nasty holes" that leaves? Well, there will be many more little holes, and the removal will be obvious. The uneven fading will be a dead giveaway.

[Major Carrales]

I agree with all of the points made above, but now that the organization & more importantly, the volunteer membership have spent $$$ on changing to U.S. CAP, I just hope they leave it alone. I would have voted against it if I had a vote, but I didn't.

How difficult is it to remove embroidered thread?  That's all you'd have to do to the tapes that say, "U.S. Civil Air Patrol."  Just remove the "U.S." 

Try it some time, and see what you are left with. Remember the discussion about removing wing patches and the "nasty holes" that leaves? Well, there will be many more little holes, and the removal will be obvious. The uneven fading will be a dead giveaway.

The US CAP thing...yikes...I have folks who have already ordered them.  We really need to know one way or the other.  I can't have my CAP Officers and Cadets wasting money..and yes it is a waste if it is changed.

So, how do we fix it?

[a2capt]

How difficult is it to remove embroidered thread?  That's all you'd have to do to the tapes that say, "U.S. Civil Air Patrol."  Just remove the "U.S." 

It's a major messy pain and the things are already cut to a length, and the fold-under part would look different even if you had enough material left to re-center the thing.

I don't care one way or the other, what it says, what I do care more about is change, change, change back. They 'forced' me to spend money and they're not going to do it again. That U.S. part will stay on there for it's entire useful life, phase back out or not.

Call it a spade..

To me, the 'U.S.' part is trivial. I would much rather see energy from the top down focused on restoring CAP to what it should be. Gen. Nameless got away with a lot of stuff and it's going to take probably at least just as long to undo the ridiculous stuff. Meanwhile, we know we have some order at the controls.

OTOH.. one thing *I* would like to see bumped off is this C&D mantra and let vendors do what they do like they used to.

[Psicorp]

What I would really like to know is how Vanguard can stop making an authorized uniform item and start replacing it with the "here's my idea for a replacement" item before the ink is dry on the Interim Change Letter (which does expire).

And what happens to all these Interim Change Letters that don't make it to the regulations?   The stuff is still being produced and you can't get the previously (still currently) approved stuff from the "approved" source?

[MIKE]

a. ICLs outlining immediate policies to be followed for a limited time will be issued with a stated expiration date. Such expiration dates shall not be more than 180 days from the date the letter was issued.
b. ICLs outlining immediate policies that are intended to become permanent shall be incorporated into an appropriate publication within 90 days of the date the letter was issued.

[jeders]

a. ICLs outlining immediate policies to be followed for a limited time will be issued with a stated expiration date. Such expiration dates shall not be more than 180 days from the date the letter was issued.
b. ICLs outlining immediate policies that are intended to become permanent shall be incorporated into an appropriate publication within 90 days of the date the letter was issued.

By my understanding of that, almost all of the changes made by change letters have expired and aren't authorized?

[Psicorp]

That's what I was curious about, sir.    The last ICL was dated 10 July 2007.

[ELTHunter]

Been there, done that already...see  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2807.0

[jb512]

What I would really like to know is how Vanguard can stop making an authorized uniform item and start replacing it with the "here's my idea for a replacement" item before the ink is dry on the Interim Change Letter (which does expire).

And what happens to all these Interim Change Letters that don't make it to the regulations?   The stuff is still being produced and you can't get the previously (still currently) approved stuff from the "approved" source?

There will be someone from national headquarters talking to VG and telling them what to produce, and what to stop producing.  That will carry over into what to sell and what not to sell.