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Author Topic: Cadets In Es Letter  (Read 30844 times)
bosshawk
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,588

« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2010, 03:08:32 PM »

At least it hasn't turned into a uniform post.
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Paul M. Reed
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HGjunkie
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« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2010, 04:22:43 PM »

At least it hasn't turned into a uniform post.
Had to bring it up, didn't you?  ;D
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retired
C1C USAFA
SAR Officer
Recruit

Posts: 13
Unit: GLR-OH-288

288th Pathfinder Cadet Squadron
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2011, 10:40:05 AM »

I have been reading the post on Cadets in ES missions and as a Commander and GTL it becomes a question of all the points that have been made.....Do we? or Don't we? or Can we? use cadets in the field....


I do my best to meet all the requirements or limitations for cadets when my team prepares for different missions...The best advise I can give is when in training create a perimeter standard for the cadets to get use to (stopping point at the scene)....Just like a staging area at a IC location...These cadets can get the equipment ready, prepare supplies, take notes from your communications officer and be prepared to assist when allowed based on the requirements....Once the scene is secured or deemed cadet approved then they can assist closer if warranted.
 
Sometimes in certain situations you will have to make decisions based on the need and you may have to do it on your own until the next level of rescue arrives.....



That is one reason for the Good Samaritan Law - 



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Richard Fugate, CAPT. CAP
Commander - SAR Officer
288th Pathfinders Squadron
Middletown, Ohio
Eclipse
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« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2011, 12:37:41 PM »

I have been reading the post on Cadets in ES missions and as a Commander and GTL it becomes a question of all the points that have been made.....Do we? or Don't we? or Can we? use cadets in the field...

We do and we should, however one of these days we will realize that "GT is not a cadet thing" and for us to be serious about it we
need to understand that we need as many or more seniors involved as cadets, with cadets having the opportunity to augment
when they can, not as the primary force.

Few cadets can respond at 1am, or even 1pm on a week day, so having them be the majority of the personnel simply sets up the situation
we are in today.
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

RiverAux
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« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2011, 01:58:55 PM »

however one of these days we will realize that "GT is not a cadet thing" and for us to be serious about it we
need to understand that we need as many or more seniors involved as cadets, with cadets having the opportunity to augment
when they can, not as the primary force.

I agree that the "GT is a cadet thing" attitude that is found within the CAP leadership as well as the perception from outside CAP that our ground teams are just a bunch of kids has been the primary reason that CAP isn't a major force in GSAR despite the fact that we are the largest GSAR organization in the US.  Sadly, both perceptions are true -- GT work in reality is a cadet thing in CAP.  Unless CAP starts fielding ground teams that are mostly made up of adults we're not going to be taken seriously no matter how well the cadets on ground teams are trained.  Sheriffs are not going to consider 13 and 14 year olds as real SAR resources. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that cadets shouldn't be on ground teams.  But so long as they are the majority of our GT members we're not going to really get many GT missions. 
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2011, 12:11:07 PM »

"It's a cadet thing" is perpetuated because the average age of senior members is hovering between 55 and 60 years old.  Unless CAP can somehow recruit enough 20's and 30's something senior members, I doubt that the attitude will change.  That is, if we're actually talking about GTM, CERT, etc.  The amount of 50+ senior members trekking through the woods, moving sandbags, etc, will be next to zero. 
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
SAR Officer
Recruit

Posts: 13
Unit: GLR-OH-288

288th Pathfinder Cadet Squadron
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2011, 03:19:49 PM »

I agree on the cadet situation on SAR activities that are not training exercises....Half of my unit has completed multiple levels of GTM and we train 1 weekend a month from February to October each year plus the Wing sponsored training's along with multiple unit SAREX's.
I believe that someday soon we may have the means to be used more often....And cadets can still have a great impact on those missions if used correctly as intended and not as First Responders.....Most of the units I have had the great opportunity to work with mimic our unit abilities with Seniors that have First Responder, EMT, Law Enforcement, Fire Fighter, Ect and have the drive and means to get the job done while still using the Cadets at levels that do not expose them to certain parts of the mission....


Training we expose them completely for learning and mentoring purposes....My Cadets are willing to do what it takes...But I will still limit that exposure when its real....and follow regs and chain of command for the cadets safety and well being....
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Richard Fugate, CAPT. CAP
Commander - SAR Officer
288th Pathfinders Squadron
Middletown, Ohio
Matt Kenyon
Recruit

Posts: 25
Unit: NCR-MO-023

« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2014, 12:56:06 AM »

Very interesting read. This would be a good one to print and post on the next ES meeting.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2014, 01:20:29 AM »

Oh look! I was a C/Capt back then!
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Theodore
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« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2016, 01:58:46 PM »

I dont get it. You can become a Jr. Firefighter/EMT on a Fire Department, or a Jr. Deputy/ Police Explorer at 16, and respond to emergencies way more frequent than CAP, but no one questions that. Yet, we perform SAR and they put age restrictions on us. All these paper pushes should join a Ground Team every once in a while.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2016, 02:08:00 PM »

I dont get it. You can become a Jr. Firefighter/EMT on a Fire Department, or a Jr. Deputy/ Police Explorer at 16, and respond to emergencies way more frequent than CAP, but no one questions that. Yet, we perform SAR and they put age restrictions on us. All these paper pushes should join a Ground Team every once in a while.

What don't you get? In CAP, you can become a GTM3 at 12 years old, which is more than you can say from other organizations. That said, there are certain things minors should not be exposed to such as corpses or dismembered bodies. Depending on the incident we're responding to, it's not only appropriate, but our duty to limit this exposure and ensure the safety and wellbeing of our cadets. 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2016, 02:14:56 PM »

^+1 and the below

I dont get it. You can become a Jr. Firefighter/EMT on a Fire Department, or a Jr. Deputy/ Police Explorer at 16, and respond to emergencies way more frequent than CAP, but no one questions that. Yet, we perform SAR and they put age restrictions on us. All these paper pushes should join a Ground Team every once in a while.

Many of our cadets are under 16, some as young as 12.  Yes, there's a big difference.

You might be able to become an EMT in some jurisdictions at 16, but you aren't a "jr. Deputy", and Police & fire Explores are just that, career exploration, you aren't the thing you're exploring at that age.

In the majority of cases, the customer, not CAP places the age limits, generally 18, and that's out of CAP's hands.  Those Jrs wouldn't be allowed in those cases where FEMA has jurisdiction either.
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
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« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2016, 04:08:18 PM »

Theodore, (thanks for invoking the Necro Thread):


On your qualification point:  it would be a very, VERY rare cadet indeed who I'd sign off within one year of joining at age 12. Almost all of our GTM3*s take between a year and a half to two years to complete all requirements, including field problems and at least two numbered AFAMs (training or actual). Thirty years ago, it took me a year and a half, and it now takes my units cadets at least as long to meet a signoff recommendation from our SET GTLs.


On your "perform SAR" point:  call outs are a second matter, where I (and the GTLs under my command) select and form a team tailored for each alert, based on the type of mission call out (from urban DF, to an ELT high probability, to a missing aircraft, DR threat, etc.) and on the individual skill set and maturity of the available GTMs. The team may or may not include cadets, based purely on those threat and skill set match factors. The Explorer and other programs I've known do the same: no one takes a VFD cadet on a risky multiple alarm call out before he has full turn out gear and significant lower tier experience under his belt.


On actual employment: task assignment should be on an individual basis as well, both on a selection and a delegation basis. We do this when selecting aircrew (e.g. this guy has mountain tickets, this guy isn't instrument rated, and so forth) and we do it with ground teams when we trust experienced team leaders to know when and where to use selected members.

Example:  as an IC (and GBD) I turned down a team (Maryland Wing, actual missing aircraft on Catoctin Mountain, late 90s) containing entirely older adult members, because of their skill set and fitness levels, while deploying two cadet-heavy GTs to search two heavily wooded, steep ridge lines along the inner and middle markers (where one found the wreck). The (trusted, experienced) GTLs of the two cadet heavy teams knew to follow procedure to hold their team back from the site, limiting exposure to all members, regardless of age. That was just good assignment and operational risk management - appropriate discrimination to match asset to task - not inappropriate discrimination against youthful cadets or older officers.


I sense that you may be frustrated at what you see as a conspiracy to keep you away from legitimate contributions in the ES mission, and I empathize. We have had officers (ICs, even) who have been found to knowingly (and against CAP policy) discriminate against members because they were female, a minority, or young, and ONLY on those bases without considering ability and experience. Yet, by and large there is no conspiracy, at least from those of us who have been doing this for decades and know how to safely pick assets to prosecute the mission. You should be commended for wanting to help out, and CAP policy is to not restrict access to these activities on the basis of age, yet we do discriminate on the basis of mission and task suitability, as I've tried to explain. Please don't take it personally if you haven't - YET!!! - had a chance to demonstrate that you've got what it takes. Keep plugging away at being the best you can be, keep advancing and expanding your skill set, and keep participating in the ES mission to the limit you can, and the effort will pay off with selection and employment in the long run.


Finally, your Wing and Region may differ from others, and our SAR/DR customer base differs widely. Many of my state of Georgia customers (GEMA and local) are quite open to cadets on our teams - once they understand that we adhere to standards and know what we're doing, that we stay in our swim lane and within our training limits, and that we are a good risk/benefit trade, regardless of age. Some counties and agencies may impose an 18+ limit, which folds into our deployment policies and MOUs on a case by case basis. So, there's not a widespread, majority rule across the US for age 18+, by any means. Your locality may vary. In mine, we just took several cadets with our team on a multi agency SAREX, with very positive feedback from USCG and state officials on their knowledge, skills, abilities and deportment, which helps open doors to understanding and future cooperative work.

http://www.lakesidenews.com/drill-fine-tunes-search-and-rescue


Stick with it. This isn't (or shouldn't be) a business where you should expect to blow through some simple quals and jump right into risky missions. If you want to do this, accept that you may need to stay in it for the long haul.


V/R
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2016, 04:38:33 PM »

It's interesting, I recently defended the use of cadets in SAR to one of the local SAR teams once.

The line was "we trained with CAP once [forever ago] and they brought a bunch of kids with them".

My response was "Yes, sir. The reality of CAP is that we do use youth searchers in some of our operations. You should know that they train to the exact same standards that our adult members do, and come with the same Federal Tort Claims Act liability coverage that our adult members do. Frankly, in general I think they're easier to train than adults. That said, I do have common sense and as a ground team leader there are certainly some times when I would not employ cadets or might leave them back. For example, if we're going to go check an area where we're very likely to find the search subject, I might have our cadets stay behind [supervised] while a couple of adults check the area. But generally, they work well and yes, we do use them."

He seemed satisfied enough with that answer, and we moved on with the conversation.

I suspect that there's probably some local issues at play here that has this cadet fired up.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
SarDragon
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« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2016, 04:47:34 PM »

I dont get it. You can become a Jr. Firefighter/EMT on a Fire Department, or a Jr. Deputy/ Police Explorer at 16, and respond to emergencies way more frequent than CAP, but no one questions that. Yet, we perform SAR and they put age restrictions on us. All these paper pushes should join a Ground Team every once in a while.

Ummm... CAP doesn't exist without what you call paper pushers. Also, there is usually a great deal of overlap within units, where those paper pushers are also the folks on ground teams and aircrews,

And, think about this - many of our senior members are no longer physically able to participate on ground teams. Yet they remain valuable members of the ES team through other roles.
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Dave Bowles
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2016, 04:51:12 PM »

I suspect that there's probably some local issues at play here that has this cadet fired up.

Do we know he's a cadet?
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Theodore
Recruit

Posts: 47

« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2016, 04:52:49 PM »

Yes, Senior Members are the backbone of C.A.P., but, Cadets, for the most part, and in the physical shape required to go on searches.
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2016, 04:53:05 PM »

I suspect that there's probably some local issues at play here that has this cadet fired up.

Do we know he's a cadet?

You're right, I'm making an assumption.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,061
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2016, 05:16:05 PM »

Yes, Senior Members are the backbone of C.A.P., but, Cadets, for the most part, and in the physical shape required to go on searches.

Bad generalization. I could out PT half the cadets in my last cadet squadron, at 55.

Also, I suggest that you take a closer look at the dates on threads before posting. This one was dormant for almost two years, and had only two posts in the two years prior.
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Dave Bowles
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Spam
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« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2016, 05:38:03 PM »

It's interesting, I recently defended the use of cadets in SAR to one of the local SAR teams once.

The line was "we trained with CAP once [forever ago] and they brought a bunch of kids with them".

My response was "Yes, sir. The reality of CAP is that we do use youth searchers in some of our operations. You should know that they train to the exact same standards that our adult members do, and come with the same Federal Tort Claims Act liability coverage that our adult members do. Frankly, in general I think they're easier to train than adults. That said, I do have common sense and as a ground team leader there are certainly some times when I would not employ cadets or might leave them back. For example, if we're going to go check an area where we're very likely to find the search subject, I might have our cadets stay behind [supervised] while a couple of adults check the area. But generally, they work well and yes, we do use them."

He seemed satisfied enough with that answer, and we moved on with the conversation.

I suspect that there's probably some local issues at play here that has this cadet fired up.

I think you're right. That usually seems the case, and... if he's a cadet?

V/R
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Cadets In Es Letter
 


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