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DemonOps
Forum Regular

Posts: 105
Unit: GLR-MI-703

« on: October 28, 2017, 04:41:39 AM »

I would like to retire fm CAP. 


Some of you may recall the drama I went through five years ago, such as running afoul of my squadron CC and given a 2b - 2 month suspension over a misunderstanding that turned into a six month suspension.  This problem  ended with a meeting with all concerned including the wing commander that resulted with me being transferred to group, given a job that before I could earn my senior rating, was transferred to the job of historian and admin officer.  After five years, I finally achieved my senior rating as an administration officer, last June. 


Our new grp cmdr and I have had a cordial and professional working relationship since his appointment last March 2016.  I was discouraged when nothing was said or written about my senior rating, even though this was a common practice of our grp cc in publicly acknowledging these hallmark achievements.  Nothing was said about me achieving my senior rating (I only found out about this by seeing my achievement in eServices).


I shared a room with our grp dpty cc last March during our wingís conference.  I shared with him that CAP was no longer fun, and Iíd wanted help in achieving my senior rating so I could make Major befor 13 August 2018 when the Ďgrand father clauseí ended and Iíd have to wait to receive a master rating before I could be promoted. 


I wrote (my opinion) what I thought was a very respectful email to the dpty Cc, including our grp cc with a courtesy copy, of my request to be promoted to Major before the grandfather clause ended next year.  Nothing happened.  We had a midsummer break but upon our return, nothing was said about my request for promotion nor was my obtaining my hard-earned senior rating mentioned.


Realizing that no one deserves promotion, which I acknowledged when on 01 Oct 2017, I sent an official memorandum Ltr, addressed to the grp VC  and CC (in turn), [size=78%] requesting  that I be promoted for the following reasons:[/size]
* before the window of promoting closed next year August. (I also provided a copy of CAPR 36-5, paragraph 2.1.2, figure 2, NOTE, giving details about those with DOR before 13 August 2014 could be promoted under the old criteria as long as the application was completed before 13 August 2018.
* due to the advancement of my multiple sclerosis, I believe I could no longer participate actively in CAP, and since I can no longer drive, I wanted to free up my wife fm driving me once a month, the 40 minuets one-way to grp meetings while she waited for me, reading a book or calling her daughter, mother and/or friend until the meeting was over.


I have yet to hear or have acknowledged fm the cmd staff about my request. 


My observation is that if for any reason the wing doesnít believe I should not be promoted, an official letter should be generated stating why they believe this.


Iíd like to retire after the first of the year.  CAP is no longer fun.  I feel the organization has treated me unprofessionally and after years of abuse, Iíd just like to leave.


Iíd like to hear fm this blogís many Lt Colonels what course of action should I pursue that would not upset anyone. 


Im medically retired fm the AF after 25 years of service (having contracted MS soon after my deployment to Iraq).  I always kept my CAP dues paid up, and whenever possible i always participated in the cadet program if the base had a CAP sqdrn, etc.


Before my time runs out (both professionally and physically) Iíd like some suggestions as to what to do next. My thinking is since my cmd Staff has my request but has not acknowledged that they have ( although itís only been three weeks Iíve officially requested promotion and four months since Iíve unofficially asked about my promotion due to the reasons already stated), that if I donít hear anything fm anyone about this subject, I should write to the wing IG just asking if ive offended anyone?  Baring discrimination because of my MS, what could be the problem?


Perhaps the situation will resolve itself since itís only been a month, they may be processing my request.  I just wanted opinions as to what would be the proper thing to do.


Itís late (or early) so I apologize for my rambling note.


Thanks, Dave (123070).


 




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MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP
GLR-MI-703 West Michigan Group
Historian and Administration Officer
Dave's CAP Achievements by drc3david, on Flickr
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,315
Unit: Classified

« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2017, 10:07:38 AM »

I would like to retire fm CAP. 

Do you meet the criteria for it?  You can't just retire if you donot have the time in.



Realizing that no one deserves promotion, which I acknowledged when on 01 Oct 2017, I sent an official memorandum Ltr, addressed to the grp VC  and CC (in turn), [size=78%] requesting  that I be promoted for the following reasons:[/size]
* before the window of promoting closed next year August. (I also provided a copy of CAPR 36-5, paragraph 2.1.2, figure 2, NOTE, giving details about those with DOR before 13 August 2014 could be promoted under the old criteria as long as the application was completed before 13 August 2018.
* due to the advancement of my multiple sclerosis, I believe I could no longer participate actively in CAP, and since I can no longer drive, I wanted to free up my wife fm driving me once a month, the 40 minuets one-way to grp meetings while she waited for me, reading a book or calling her daughter, mother and/or friend until the meeting was over.

Do you meet the criteria to be promoted under the grandfather clause?



I have yet to hear or have acknowledged fm the cmd staff about my request. 

My observation is that if for any reason the wing doesnít believe I should not be promoted, an official letter should be generated stating why they believe this.

Some type of response would be good, but you are not owed an official letter stating why. 


Iíd like to retire after the first of the year.  CAP is no longer fun.  I feel the organization has treated me unprofessionally and after years of abuse, Iíd just like to leave.

Again if you meet the criteria to retire then submit it if you don't then you don't.  If CAP is no longer fun and you feel you have been treated that poorly either resign or let your membership lapse. 


Iíd like to hear fm this blogís many Lt Colonels what course of action should I pursue that would not upset anyone. 

There are many folks here in lower grades who can advise you just as well why single out on LtCols?


Before my time runs out (both professionally and physically) Iíd like some suggestions as to what to do next. My thinking is since my cmd Staff has my request but has not acknowledged that they have ( although itís only been three weeks Iíve officially requested promotion and four months since Iíve unofficially asked about my promotion due to the reasons already stated), that if I donít hear anything fm anyone about this subject, I should write to the wing IG just asking if ive offended anyone?  Baring discrimination because of my MS, what could be the problem?

Ask again.  How would the IG know if you "offended" anyone?  My read is simple either you meet the criteria to promote or you don't.  If you are going to Maj then IIRC that has to be approved by the wing.  And as far as I know there is no timeline that says an answer has to be generated within so many days of request.  And you would have to prove discrimination based on your MS as well.  (Don't be another Cyborg)


Perhaps the situation will resolve itself since itís only been a month, they may be processing my request.  I just wanted opinions as to what would be the proper thing to do.

Honestly engage your CC again and ride it out if you don't hear anything by the time your membership is due again then decide to renew or pop smoke, but if the choice is made to leave,  leave on your terms. 
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EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,819

« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2017, 10:08:53 AM »

Dave,

I made the decision to walk away when CAP stopped being fun. Politics, nepotism, and a couple of years banging my head against the wall over stupid stuff finally took its toll. The straw that broke the camel's back was a roadblock thrown up to prevent my promotion to Lt Col.

I considered fighting it, but in the end just walked away. I figured that the difference in being a disgruntled former Major and disgruntled former Lt Col wasn't worth the effort.

There are times that I miss being a member, but I have the satisfaction of knowing that I made a difference in my AOR. I have since joined a non-profit organization, where I sit on the board of directors and use my talents to make a difference there instead.

I suppose that this doesn't really answer your questions, but thought that I would share my experience.
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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,028

« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2017, 10:59:34 AM »

Im not knocking in any way someone wanting to retire.  I just find it interesting that there is a formal closure to volunteering.  Once you retire from CAP are you just done?  Can you go back in another capacity or still participate without being a member?  Is it the official way of telling CAP "Yeah.... Im officially outta here"  Its not like there is any financial aspect to retiring like a job.  Does it just provide some sort of emotional closure to the deal?  You have documented proof that you finished what you started?

I was pretty active when I was in.  I think I may have had enough years in to retire if my cadet time counts.  But who knows.  I just sorta stopped going after I passed off SqCC.  Then let my membership lapse after being pretty active and flying a few hundred hours as an MP.  Then on the other side, as a SqCC I had a couple retirement certificates come in for people Id never met, they just sent in their dues every year.  Id find their number and call them.  When I left the CC position 2-3 years later their certificate would still be on a shelf.   They simply paid their dues every year.  Ive honestly never understood why people fought so hard in CAP.  Youre volunteering.   if its not fitting into your lifestyle anymore, change units, take a break until the unit dynamics change or just punch out.  Every couple of years I kick around the idea of getting back in.  Then I attend a meeting or two..... and then never go back. I really enjoyed a lot of the flying and the cadet programs but I fly full time for a living and with no kids in the program (son is now in the Army and the girls are not interested) it just quickly fell off the radar.  Everyone has a different reality when it comes to CAP an how it fits in to their life.  I still poke around here on CAPTalk just because ive been on here for years and still have a continued morbid curiosity about CAP.     I relocated from CA to SWFL a few years ago and honestly..... if the weather wasnt so biblical level horrible I would probably rejoin.  But the idea of strapping myself into an aircraft without AC any more than I have to for work already or the idea of being outside marching with cadets between April and November makes me want to check myself in to behavioral health. >:D
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 750

« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2017, 11:29:27 AM »

I would like to retire fm CAP. 




Realizing that no one deserves promotion, which I acknowledged when on 01 Oct 2017, I sent an official memorandum Ltr, addressed to the grp VC  and CC (in turn), [size=78%] requesting  that I be promoted for the following reasons:[/size]
* before the window of promoting closed next year August. (I also provided a copy of CAPR 36-5, paragraph 2.1.2, figure 2, NOTE, giving details about those with DOR before 13 August 2014 could be promoted under the old criteria as long as the application was completed before 13 August 2018.
* due to the advancement of my multiple sclerosis, I believe I could no longer participate actively in CAP, and since I can no longer drive, I wanted to free up my wife fm driving me once a month, the 40 minuets one-way to grp meetings while she waited for me, reading a book or calling her daughter, mother and/or friend until the meeting was over.

Do you meet the criteria to be promoted under the grandfather clause?



I have yet to hear or have acknowledged fm the cmd staff about my request. 

My observation is that if for any reason the wing doesnít believe I should not be promoted, an official letter should be generated stating why they believe this.

Some type of response would be good, but you are not owed an official letter stating why. 




Actually a response is required if you have been officially put up for promotion from CAPR 35-5

1.8.5. If any commander in the chain of command disapproves a recommendation for promotion or
request for waiver, he or she will so indicate, providing a reason for the denial, over his or her signature
on the CAPF 2 and will return the CAPF 2 to the initiator through channels. If the National Awards and
Promotion Team denies a request for waiver, it will provide a reason for the denial and return the request
to the initiator through channels. In neither case does such disapproval preclude the individual from being
recommended for promotion at some future date.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 734

« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2017, 12:08:29 PM »

Actually a response is required if you have been officially put up for promotion from CAPR 35-5

1.8.5. If any commander in the chain of command disapproves a recommendation for promotion or
request for waiver, he or she will so indicate, providing a reason for the denial, over his or her signature
on the CAPF 2 and will return the CAPF 2 to the initiator through channels. If the National Awards and
Promotion Team denies a request for waiver, it will provide a reason for the denial and return the request
to the initiator through channels. In neither case does such disapproval preclude the individual from being
recommended for promotion at some future date.

While that is true, the OP has not been recommended for promotion so there isn't any disapproval yet.  I'm not sure if the individual can initiate the promotion process in eServices or not but once that is done and someone up the chain rejects it, then that disapproval reason has to be given in writing.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,987

« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2017, 12:20:11 PM »

Another reg that lags the system. Few wings would still accept
a hardcopy F2 for a duty promotion, and eservices does not require a disapproval reason be provided.

Also, there is no requirement any action ever be taken. A promotion can die on the desk at any level with zero recourse.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 850

« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2017, 12:24:27 PM »

Everyone is just different. When my time comes, or if CAP is 'no longer fun' I'll simply just not go to any more meetings.  No goodbyes. No formalities. I don't expect a goodbye party or anything to frame for the wall.  Its not like leaving a paying job, where you have to make sure to get your pension in order, etc.

I can understand the 'personal satisfaction' aspect of wanting to go out as a Major. But its not like you're going to get a bigger pension because of it. ;)
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MS - MO - AP - MP
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 850

« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2017, 12:26:25 PM »


A promotion can die on the desk at any level with zero recourse.

Which is why phone calls might help.  The letters DemonOps have been sending may well be lost under a shuffle of junk mail on someone's desk. Never assume that your letter has been received and read.
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MS - MO - AP - MP
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,664
Unit: of issue

« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2017, 01:35:31 PM »

Im not knocking in any way someone wanting to retire.  I just find it interesting that there is a formal closure to volunteering.  Once you retire from CAP are you just done?  Can you go back in another capacity or still participate without being a member?  Is it the official way of telling CAP "Yeah.... Im officially outta here"  Its not like there is any financial aspect to retiring like a job.  Does it just provide some sort of emotional closure to the deal?  You have documented proof that you finished what you started?

Speaking as a guy who had more than 20 years as a senior when he "retired," and then came back 4 years later... :)  Retiring can be like a pause button without losing anything.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversationsô
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2017, 02:06:28 PM »

Here's my question. Was DemonOps actually put in for promotion? You can't initiate your own promotion can you?
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 850

« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2017, 02:44:37 PM »

Here's my question. Was DemonOps actually put in for promotion? You can't initiate your own promotion can you?

Even if so, do you ask for help getting a promotion starting off saying CAP isn't fun:

Quote
I shared with him that CAP was no longer fun, and Iíd wanted help in achieving my senior rating so I could make Major
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MS - MO - AP - MP
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,077
Unit: SI

« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2017, 05:01:55 PM »

If you are feeling like you are being treated unprofessionally, you are being abused by the org, etc. I'd just bail from the org without retiring. Make a copy of your records and keep them handy so that should you decide to come back you have a relatively simple process to do so.

No sheet of paper or piece of cloth is worth dealing with those things.
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MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,784
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2017, 05:27:20 PM »

Have you spoken to your Personnel Officer and or PD to ensure you meet the grandfather clause of CAPR 35-5? have you been awarded the Loening Award?

Take to the Personnel Officer about initiating the promotion. You can check under Reports to see if you're on the eligible list. 
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,028

« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2017, 06:52:46 PM »

Im not knocking in any way someone wanting to retire.  I just find it interesting that there is a formal closure to volunteering.  Once you retire from CAP are you just done?  Can you go back in another capacity or still participate without being a member?  Is it the official way of telling CAP "Yeah.... Im officially outta here"  Its not like there is any financial aspect to retiring like a job.  Does it just provide some sort of emotional closure to the deal?  You have documented proof that you finished what you started?

Speaking as a guy who had more than 20 years as a senior when he "retired," and then came back 4 years later... :)  Retiring can be like a pause button without losing anything.

OK... so you could still rejoin then?  That makes sense.   Now that Ive been out about 6 years, I dread going back and starting over.  All the PD stuff, etc.   If I could just come back in, review and forward march, I might be more inclined.
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mwewing
Member

Posts: 58
Unit: GLR-MI-135

« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2017, 10:25:15 PM »

Capt. D'Arcy,

I am not sure why you are soliciting feedback from this forum instead of having a dialogue with the group CC. I would also caution you against drumming up all of these worst-case scenarios. Considering routing things through the IG or hypothesizing about discrimination will only exacerbate what might be a simple communication issue. As a member of your group who was recently promoted to Major, I can also say the process takes some time. My own promotion took several weeks to get through the proper channels, which I did not consider excessive. Granted, I am in a subordinate unit. Your promotion originates at the group level eliminating an entire step of the approval process.

However, your presence on group staff should also facilitate easier communication. This is the part I honestly don't understand about your situation. You report directly to the group CC - one that holds regular in-person group staff meetings. This gives you monthly access to the very people you need to direct this inquiry too. It is funny you mention the 2017 MIWG Conference. I recall bumping into you, along with the group CV and group personnel officer, that Friday evening. We sat together and discussed a variety of things. These included some questions you had regarding a Senior rating in Administration, as well as your contemplation of retirement from CAP. If your relationship is close enough to share a hotel room, I would think you are close enough to pick up the phone (or pull someone aside at the group staff meeting) and inquire about your request for promotion. As I write this, I can immediately think of at least 4 reasons it hasn't been approved yet, without even considering reasons it would be denied.

I strongly encourage you to seek out the group commander and ask him about this. He will certainly give you the information you are looking for. You might even end up with oak leafs out of the deal.
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Maj. Mark Ewing, CAP
Hudsonville Metro Cadet Squadron (GLR-MI-135)
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,664
Unit: of issue

« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2017, 09:14:27 AM »

OK... so you could still rejoin then?  That makes sense.   Now that Ive been out about 6 years, I dread going back and starting over.  All the PD stuff, etc.   If I could just come back in, review and forward march, I might be more inclined.

Well, you'd keep a bunch of stuff (ie. they'll reactivate your records), but one of the big things is that if you rejoin, you're under the "new" promotion rules.  No CLC = no Captain.

So most people I know in that boat, lacking either CLC or RCS, had to take a step back in grade.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversationsô
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
CAP9907
Recruit

Posts: 24
Unit: NER-000

« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2017, 01:46:24 AM »

See ya! When the CAP is not fun or in your best interests, it's time to move on.... that is best for all involved. Best of luck in the future.
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16 yrs of service
Wing Director of some stuff
IC3 and a bunch of things below that
DemonOps
Forum Regular

Posts: 105
Unit: GLR-MI-703

« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 04:17:27 PM »

I'm grateful to find out that the problem was that no one was communicating with me.  Eight years ago, I made the mistake of asking wing if they've received my commanding officer's submission for my promotion.  A very stupid mistake, even though at the time, ppl weren't very talkative. 


I'm trying to leave CAP, but do so in a very honorable way.  I regret writing this note "Trying to be highly sensitive."  It was a stupid post (you'd think I'd learn).





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MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP
GLR-MI-703 West Michigan Group
Historian and Administration Officer
Dave's CAP Achievements by drc3david, on Flickr
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,987

« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 05:47:55 PM »

I'm grateful to find out that the problem was that no one was communicating with me.  Eight years ago, I made the mistake of asking wing if they've received my commanding officer's submission for my promotion.  A very stupid mistake, even though at the time, ppl weren't very talkative. 

I guess that leaves one to ask why your CC or PDO wasn't asking that question instead of you, but I
can't imagine why that would be anything but a perfectly natural question, and yet, sadly,
I can also see how it would get noses out of joint, which is kind of a "CAP thing".

My experience has been that people don't like to be calleds out for not doing what they are supposed to,
and many times confuse legit interrogatories as confrontation, not because of the asker, but because they
know they dropped the ball.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

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