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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 105

« on: October 23, 2017, 11:19:56 AM »

The merging of thought in PAO - R and R and the Chaplain's Corps:

The news:

EXCLUSIVE: US Preparing to Put Nuclear Bombers Back on 24-Hour Alert
http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2017/10/exclusive-us-preparing-put-nuclear-bombers-back-24-hour-alert/141957

Air Force could recall up to 1,000 retired pilots after Trump order
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/21/air-force-could-recall-up-to-1000-retired-pilots-after-trump-order.html

CAP Sunday
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/640/~/cap-sunday

The thought:

If the USAF is returning to a more threat oriented stance (and it appears they are) the pastoral need will skyrocket. The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain's Corps is designed to support and augment the AD Chaplain's Corps. If the PAOs / R and R officers work with the current unit Chaplains and recruit more into that corps we have a potential giant win-win-win.

Of course the institutional naysayers will be all over this, but these are my Sunday evening / Monday morning musings.

Please post your constructive criticism, ideas, amplifications and action steps.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 04:33:56 PM by Cicero » Logged
GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 122
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 11:27:52 AM »

I pulled alert in SAC and PACAF for about 10 years and don't remember ever seeing a chaplain. Of course at that time it was business as usual.
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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 105

« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 11:40:49 AM »

I pulled alert in SAC and PACAF for about 10 years and don't remember ever seeing a chaplain. Of course at that time it was business as usual.

Agreed, Vastly different world today, different generations.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 850

« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 12:35:09 PM »

I pulled alert in SAC and PACAF for about 10 years and don't remember ever seeing a chaplain. Of course at that time it was business as usual.

Agreed, Vastly different world today, different generations.

Maybe so, but lets hope the current folks on Alert are as smart, stable and tough as those 50 years ago.
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MS - MO - AP - MP
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,987

« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 01:20:13 PM »

CAP's role is not to recruit Chaplains purely for the purpose of augmenting the USAF, that
is the USAF's job.

Chaplains are supposed to be focused on CAP needs and mission - the augmentation
is supposed to be "once in a while" / "emergency" / "Pastor James is sick" situation.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 105

« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 02:10:22 PM »

See http://hc.pcr.cap.gov/downloads/MOA_Signed.pdf

The benefits include the support for core CAP missions and the added R and R value of the schools the Chaplain's may be associated with..
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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 105

« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 02:11:41 PM »

CAP's role is not to recruit Chaplains purely for the purpose of augmenting the USAF, that
is the USAF's job.
That is both correct and it is NOT what is being suggested here. But the rising need is real.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,987

« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2017, 02:44:15 PM »

Well then honestly I'm not sure what is being suggested.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,705
Unit: Earth

« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2017, 04:07:20 PM »

the pastoral need will skyrocket.

Do you have evidence to support your assertion that pastoral need will skyrocket, as opposed to a small, insignificant increase?
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Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 105

« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 04:29:38 PM »

the pastoral need will skyrocket.

Do you have evidence to support your assertion that pastoral need will skyrocket, as opposed to a small, insignificant increase?
It is an opinion about the future. I am unable to "prove" such as the future is, well, unknowable. But the combination of the news articles and anecdotal evidence suggests that it may well be so. From a R and R perspective, it has the elements needed to pursue a "niche" that has a long and honored history with the Patrol using the appeal of potential USAF support in addition to the core missions.
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,705
Unit: Earth

« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 04:51:51 PM »

It is an opinion about the future. I am unable to "prove" such as the future is, well, unknowable. But the combination of the news articles and anecdotal evidence suggests that it may well be so. From a R and R perspective, it has the elements needed to pursue a "niche" that has a long and honored history with the Patrol using the appeal of potential USAF support in addition to the core missions.

Obviously, the future is "unknowable" with an absolute certainty.  Nevertheless, to present an issue or a course of action requires "fact finding".  Within the concept of "fact finding" is finding facts in which to base your opinions, assertions, courses of action, etc.  The above news articles are merely examples of potential future plans, but they do not attest to the need of pastoral counseling.  Not sure what your anecdotal evidence is as you have yet to present it.  You have made a jump from "here is what may happen in the future" to "we need to recruit more chaplains" without any support.  So as a commander, why should I spend or direct the effort of my Recruiting Officer, Chaplain, or Public Affairs Officer to recruit more chaplains based on a rather uninformed opinion?  Also, you have not stated how this is a win-win-win, when CAP's function is not to recruit chaplain's for the USAF (which you agreed previously)? 

Thus, why focus on recruiting chaplains for augmenting the USAF instead allowing the USAF Chaplain Corps to focus on recruiting chaplains and, when or if necessary, asking for CAP's Chaplain Corps' assistance?  In essence, why look for a solution to a problem that may never exist?

What will happen with the Chaplains if no such request comes from the USAF?  Will they stay interested in CAP and assist in other non-Chaplain areas?

Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to harp on your suggestion.  Just providing constructive comments on your path to your plan.  In fact, I am not sure if you are a cadet or senior.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 04:57:47 PM by LSThiker » Logged
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 105

« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 05:50:04 PM »

It is an opinion about the future. I am unable to "prove" such as the future is, well, unknowable. But the combination of the news articles and anecdotal evidence suggests that it may well be so. From a R and R perspective, it has the elements needed to pursue a "niche" that has a long and honored history with the Patrol using the appeal of potential USAF support in addition to the core missions.

Obviously, the future is "unknowable" with an absolute certainty.  Nevertheless, to present an issue or a course of action requires "fact finding".  Within the concept of "fact finding" is finding facts in which to base your opinions, assertions, courses of action, etc.  The above news articles are merely examples of potential future plans, but they do not attest to the need of pastoral counseling.  Not sure what your anecdotal evidence is as you have yet to present it.  You have made a jump from "here is what may happen in the future" to "we need to recruit more chaplains" without any support.  So as a commander, why should I spend or direct the effort of my Recruiting Officer, Chaplain, or Public Affairs Officer to recruit more chaplains based on a rather uninformed opinion?  Also, you have not stated how this is a win-win-win, when CAP's function is not to recruit chaplain's for the USAF (which you agreed previously)? 

Thus, why focus on recruiting chaplains for augmenting the USAF instead allowing the USAF Chaplain Corps to focus on recruiting chaplains and, when or if necessary, asking for CAP's Chaplain Corps' assistance?  In essence, why look for a solution to a problem that may never exist?

What will happen with the Chaplains if no such request comes from the USAF?  Will they stay interested in CAP and assist in other non-Chaplain areas?

Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to harp on your suggestion.  Just providing constructive comments on your path to your plan.  In fact, I am not sure if you are a cadet or senior.

Good feedback, thank you.

The anecdotal first. In talking to both the active duty people I know as well as the reservists being potentially recalled, the general feeling is that the high level of deployments has come at a high cost to the family life of these airman and officers, and that the recall will increase that pressure. See http://www.military.com/spouse/military-deployment/dealing-with-deployment/deployments-toll-goes-under-microscope.html for one of many articles that clearly IDs that issue. If we go to 24 hour alert, it is my opinion the stress levels will rise (an opinion, but based on decades of dealing with people in high stress environments.)

" "we need to recruit more chaplains"" Is what I did not say, what I said was I see an opportunity in a niche area where we have a strong presence and a historical close alignment with the USAF that would allow a combination of PAO and R and R coordination.

I appreciate the feedback.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 619

« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 10:39:17 PM »

I don't know that I agree with your assertion that there will be an increase in demand for services, but based on what you're describing there will be a greater need for mental health professionals, something that is definitely outside of CAP's wheel house. We can't even seem to do CISM.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 10:57:38 PM »

Cicero, if you really think that the reestablishment of Ground Alert is going to result in an increase in Chaplain requests you are seriously misinformed.
I pulled Alert in SAC for 12 years including 6 years at Offutt AFB and never once saw a Chaplain in the Alert Facility.
Mostly because the Chaplains didn't have the Top Secret Security Clearance required to even enter the facility and they were not on the Entry List either.
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Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,077
Unit: SI

« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2017, 11:31:02 PM »

Cicero, if you really think that the reestablishment of Ground Alert is going to result in an increase in Chaplain requests you are seriously misinformed.
I pulled Alert in SAC for 12 years including 6 years at Offutt AFB and never once saw a Chaplain in the Alert Facility.
Mostly because the Chaplains didn't have the Top Secret Security Clearance required to even enter the facility and they were not on the Entry List either.

Why would they be needed in a secure area? Where did he say they would be needed there?
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,664
Unit: of issue

« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 11:09:49 AM »

I don't know that I agree with your assertion that there will be an increase in demand for services, but based on what you're describing there will be a greater need for mental health professionals, something that is definitely outside of CAP's wheel house. We can't even seem to do CISM.

I think it might be important to note that the entire Air Force doesn't go on 24 hour alert.

Its a portion of Global Strike Command (formerly Strategic Air Command) and if its just B-52s on cocked alert, then it would be Barksdale and Minot since there are no other B-52 bases anymore.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
JayT
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,322

« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 06:30:00 AM »

The merging of thought in PAO - R and R and the Chaplain's Corps:

The news:

EXCLUSIVE: US Preparing to Put Nuclear Bombers Back on 24-Hour Alert
http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2017/10/exclusive-us-preparing-put-nuclear-bombers-back-24-hour-alert/141957

Air Force could recall up to 1,000 retired pilots after Trump order
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/21/air-force-could-recall-up-to-1000-retired-pilots-after-trump-order.html

CAP Sunday
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/640/~/cap-sunday

The thought:

If the USAF is returning to a more threat oriented stance (and it appears they are) the pastoral need will skyrocket. The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain's Corps is designed to support and augment the AD Chaplain's Corps. If the PAOs / R and R officers work with the current unit Chaplains and recruit more into that corps we have a potential giant win-win-win.

Of course the institutional naysayers will be all over this, but these are my Sunday evening / Monday morning musings.

Please post your constructive criticism, ideas, amplifications and action steps.

For what?
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,006

« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2017, 09:23:00 AM »

The merging of thought in PAO - R and R and the Chaplain's Corps:

The news:

EXCLUSIVE: US Preparing to Put Nuclear Bombers Back on 24-Hour Alert
http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2017/10/exclusive-us-preparing-put-nuclear-bombers-back-24-hour-alert/141957

Air Force could recall up to 1,000 retired pilots after Trump order
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/21/air-force-could-recall-up-to-1000-retired-pilots-after-trump-order.html

It would seem that these stories are not exactly what they originally were. The latest stories are that the air force is not going to pull pilots out of retirement and bombers are not going back on 24-hour alert (at least not any time soon).

Quote
CAP Sunday
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/640/~/cap-sunday

This has been a thing since the 70s and has nothing to do with global politics.

Quote
The thought:

If the USAF is returning to a more threat oriented stance (and it appears they are)...

That's debateable.

Quote
...the pastoral need will skyrocket.

That is highly unlikely.

Quote
The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain's Corps is designed to support and augment the AD Chaplain's Corps.

It's really not. It's one of the few areas where CAP does directly support AF operations, but even for the average chaplain, the likelihood of doing so is about the same as the chance of a member in Kansas doing border patrol flights.

I think that trying to recruit more chaplains is a great idea and I wish you the best of luck. However, the news isn't what you think it is and even if it were, your conclusions are not really accurate. Also keep in mind that while it is easy to recruit a chaplain (give them an application) it takes anywhere from months to years for them to go through the process of being APPOINTED a CAP chaplain.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,664
Unit: of issue

« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2017, 11:15:00 AM »

I just read two articles that said the USAF is _NOT_ moving back to 24hr nuclear alert.

So that kind of shoots that in the foot.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Chaplaindon
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2017, 11:18:58 AM »

I don't know that I agree with your assertion that there will be an increase in demand for services, but based on what you're describing there will be a greater need for mental health professionals, something that is definitely outside of CAP's wheel house. We can't even seem to do CISM.

The "We can't even seem to do CISM" comment caught my attention. I was the Deputy Director for CISM at NHQ (volunteer) until I retired -directly because of NHQ's reckless restructuring of the program in 2008.

We WERE doing CISM and quite successfully.

I even requested a "save" for a CISM team that prevented a suicide -directly- because of their CISM intervention. NHQ/OPS denied that request.

In 2008, CAP/CC abruptly and summarily fired the National Director of CISM and then relegated the CISM program to the purgatory (my word) that is Health Services instead of Operations where it was working (although CAPR 60-5 still specifies it as such) and that killed the program.

The key folks that worked so hard to create and field left the program and some, like me, CAP also.

The fact that "[w] can't seem to to CISM" is a critique that is both well-deserved and an example of the lasting damage a vindictive National Commander can inflict.

Bluntly put, CAP can't "seem to do" CISM because a successful and effective program with teams of peers and mental health professionals, teams -for example- that shined post-Katrina, was deliberately killed.
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Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
Former Deputy Director for CISM at CAP/HQ
Gill Robb Wilson Award # 1660
USCG Auxiliary member
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