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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: ES Training Opportunity for SER Wings
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Author Topic: ES Training Opportunity for SER Wings  (Read 1050 times)
husker
Forum Regular

Posts: 150
Unit: NHQ-007

« on: October 22, 2017, 03:58:07 PM »

Alabama wing has announced a new cycle of the WESS program on http://WESS.alwg.us. The training is open to all CAP members per the activity announcement http://wess.alwg.us/systems/file_download.ashx?pg=67&ver=8 and interested cadets and senior members are encouraged to participate.

This is our program's 21st year of task based training.  The program was started as the original test bed for the ES curriculum project, and has since grown to be one of the largest Wing based ES training programs in CAP.  Last year, we averaged 150 participants each training weekend, and we had members from Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Tennessee and Georgia Wings participate.  This year, we will again be offering courses in Mission Aircrew (AP, Scanner, and Observer/Pilot tracks), Ground Team (Basic, Advanced, and Ground Team Leader tracks), Mission Management, Mission Radio Operator, and Wilderness Advanced First Aid.
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Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
Deputy Director, National Emergency Services Academy
nesa.cap.gov
mlong (at) nesa.cap.gov
RiverAux
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2017, 04:57:07 PM »

I really don't understand why this isn't the CAP standard way of doing things.  With most squadrons being barely getting by organizing training on an individual basis is difficult if not impossible.  This sort of group or Wing-based training should be how things are done.  Our Wing did this for a time for aircrew but when the person who was pushing it switched to other duties the idea got dropped. 
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,996

« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2017, 07:16:09 PM »

...when the person who was pushing it switched to other duties the idea got dropped.

That's the issue - "the person". There is no mandate, nor strategic plan from NHQ, so wings are free to engage, or not, at their whim,
thus nothing happens in many areas.

You cold make the same argument that NESA is the official national school, should be the center of all training
and curriculum, yet many people West of the Mississippi disdain its existence and all but ignore it.

A strong argument could be made that NESA completion should be required for any ES rating, perhaps
with 8 sub schools under NESA's direction for each region.

Now, by all means please mash the Post button telling everyone how that's not workable.

However that won't change the fact that the only way to a "standard" program" is enforcing "standards", not
encouraging creativity.
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

RiverAux
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2017, 08:24:07 PM »

Quote
That's the issue - "the person". There is no mandate, nor strategic plan from NHQ, so wings are free to engage, or not, at their whim,
thus nothing happens in many areas.
Exactly my point.

Quote
A strong argument could be made that NESA completion should be required for any ES rating, perhaps
with 8 sub schools under NESA's direction for each region.

Every Wing is, or should be capable, of holding training classes for all ES specialties.  Perhaps they don't need to have a massive event where everything is taught at once, but having separate Aircrew, Ground Team, and Base staff schools is certainly within their capabilities. 

While there would be some minor benefits to consolidation, the added expenses to individuals would not be worth it. 
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,996

« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 08:55:10 PM »

Every Wing is, or should be capable, of holding training classes for all ES specialties.  Perhaps they don't need to have a massive event where everything is taught at once, but having separate Aircrew, Ground Team, and Base staff schools is certainly within their capabilities. 

Should, yes, but I honestly doubt that is the case, at least anymore.

The same logistics that get in the way of people going to NESA get in the way of doing anything
that takes more then one weekend.

I know of "schools" all over the place that are fairly incoherent in regards to structure,
and wind up with a lot of "dangling participles" all over the place, because it's nearly impossible
to accomplish end-to-end training, including two decent mission sorties, in a single weekend,
and the ability to give CAP two weekends, especially in proximity, is a rare commodity these days.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard "We didn't finish 'x', and I just need one sortie..." I could fund
an ES school myself.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,160

« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 09:24:09 PM »

...when the person who was pushing it switched to other duties the idea got dropped.

That's the issue - "the person". There is no mandate, nor strategic plan from NHQ, so wings are free to engage, or not, at their whim,
thus nothing happens in many areas.

You cold make the same argument that NESA is the official national school, should be the center of all training
and curriculum, yet many people West of the Mississippi disdain its existence and all but ignore it.

A strong argument could be made that NESA completion should be required for any ES rating, perhaps
with 8 sub schools under NESA's direction for each region.

Now, by all means please mash the Post button telling everyone how that's not workable.

However that won't change the fact that the only way to a "standard" program" is enforcing "standards", not
encouraging creativity.

The problem with NESA, as I found in my pursuit of creating a wing level comm school a few years ago, is they only allow certain folks to teach their curriculum. It seems to be dependent on a particular instructor or set of instructors. The courses need to be designed so any with A, B, C qualifications can instruct them, provided one of the qualification is not be a particular member.

I have a similar issue with the presentation national puts up from the national conference - they are at best outlines and at worst name cards. Mostly unusable unless you have the original presenter giving the briefing/class/etc.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 09:34:24 PM »

The problem with NESA, as I found in my pursuit of creating a wing level comm school a few years ago, is they only allow certain folks to teach their curriculum. It seems to be dependent on a particular instructor or set of instructors. The courses need to be designed so any with A, B, C qualifications can instruct them, provided one of the qualification is not be a particular member.

I have a similar issue with the presentation national puts up from the national conference - they are at best outlines and at worst name cards. Mostly unusable unless you have the original presenter giving the briefing/class/etc.

No argument on either point there, this has been an ongoing problem with most CAP curriculum and courses
for many years - they depend far too heavily on "facts not in evidence", or the infamous "local policies", which has
plagued the SLS/CLS camps for years.  Why, on earth, would any wing have "special" procedures for anything,
let alone property? (etc.)

In NESA's defense, considering the curriculum hasn't been updated for about 13+ years, there's a whole
forest of missions and ratings that aren't even indicated in the published documents and classes, let
alone a coherent training structure.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 853

« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2017, 09:47:11 PM »

Some of us cannot dedicate 6 weekends out of our schedules. Mine is unpredictable.

The info on the website isn't clear about whether you can pick and choose weeks.

For AirCrew, if you just wanted to train for MO, can you just show up for weekends 3 and 4? And maybe skip the graduation weekend and have an evaluator at your local squadron take you on the final sortie and sign you off?

Same for MS, just do weekends 1 and 2?
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MS - MO - AP - MP
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,160

« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2017, 09:51:12 PM »

The problem with NESA, as I found in my pursuit of creating a wing level comm school a few years ago, is they only allow certain folks to teach their curriculum. It seems to be dependent on a particular instructor or set of instructors. The courses need to be designed so any with A, B, C qualifications can instruct them, provided one of the qualification is not be a particular member.

I have a similar issue with the presentation national puts up from the national conference - they are at best outlines and at worst name cards. Mostly unusable unless you have the original presenter giving the briefing/class/etc.

No argument on either point there, this has been an ongoing problem with most CAP curriculum and courses
for many years - they depend far too heavily on "facts not in evidence", or the infamous "local policies", which has
plagued the SLS/CLS camps for years.  Why, on earth, would any wing have "special" procedures for anything,
let alone property? (etc.)
State laws? For example, in most states the requirement for a Commercial Driver's License (passenger) is 15 passengers + driver. In California, it's 10 passengers. So, CAWG does not have alot of vans.

Quote
In NESA's defense, considering the curriculum hasn't been updated for about 13+ years, there's a whole
forest of missions and ratings that aren't even indicated in the published documents and classes, let
alone a coherent training structure.
13+ years and they still do not share it.
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husker
Forum Regular

Posts: 150
Unit: NHQ-007

« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2017, 10:07:04 PM »

Some of us cannot dedicate 6 weekends out of our schedules. Mine is unpredictable.

The info on the website isn't clear about whether you can pick and choose weeks.

For AirCrew, if you just wanted to train for MO, can you just show up for weekends 3 and 4? And maybe skip the graduation weekend and have an evaluator at your local squadron take you on the final sortie and sign you off?

Same for MS, just do weekends 1 and 2?

There are only 5 weekends - January through May.   A track runs across each of the weekends (5 weekends per rating), so one cannot pick and choose which weekends to come.  We understand that students may miss a weekend;  we have the final weekend (May) that is designated for make up tasks and a grad ex.  I know that some may consider five weekends excessive for a rating  ("Why do you guys take 5 weekends?  I got my GTM3 in one!"), but we do follow the national curriculum and the task evaluation criteria.

I'm not sure I follow the issue of "hidden" curriculum from NESA - everything is freely available on the NESA site.  I can speak for the activity, so if there are questions or concerns, please feel free to email me at the address below.

The issue of 13 year old curriculum is one of my greatest pains in CAP.  Trust me.
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Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
Deputy Director, National Emergency Services Academy
nesa.cap.gov
mlong (at) nesa.cap.gov
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 853

« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2017, 10:13:13 PM »


A track runs across each of the weekends (5 weekends per rating), so one cannot pick and choose which weekends to come.

So looking at the schedule linked below, if someone is already a MS and wants to train for MO, he just twiddles his thumbs the first two weekends(?):

http://wess.alwg.us/schedule.aspx
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MS - MO - AP - MP
husker
Forum Regular

Posts: 150
Unit: NHQ-007

« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 10:15:39 PM »


A track runs across each of the weekends (5 weekends per rating), so one cannot pick and choose which weekends to come.

So looking at the schedule linked below, if someone is already a MS and wants to train for MO, he just twiddles his thumbs the first two weekends(?):

http://wess.alwg.us/schedule.aspx
No, MO training starts in January as well.  The first thing that MO trainees do is review MS.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
Deputy Director, National Emergency Services Academy
nesa.cap.gov
mlong (at) nesa.cap.gov
Eclipse
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Posts: 27,996

« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 10:17:05 PM »

State laws? For example, in most states the requirement for a Commercial Driver's License (passenger) is 15 passengers + driver. In California, it's 10 passengers. So, CAWG does not have alot of vans.

Fair enough.

That's what I get for being from a state that is (nearly) bankrupt and generally corrupt, vs. "special".

We're too worried about the same vehicles being resold to the state multiple times to
care too much how many people are in them, or who is driving.
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 853

« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2017, 10:27:36 PM »


A track runs across each of the weekends (5 weekends per rating), so one cannot pick and choose which weekends to come.

So looking at the schedule linked below, if someone is already a MS and wants to train for MO, he just twiddles his thumbs the first two weekends(?):

http://wess.alwg.us/schedule.aspx
No, MO training starts in January as well.  The first thing that MO trainees do is review MS.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Gotcha. That answers my question. WESS Aircrew training is best for someone new who isn't already an MS or MO and can start from scratch and get both knocked out. Otherwise you're spending weekends 'reviewing' stuff you should already know and have been practicing.
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MS - MO - AP - MP
husker
Forum Regular

Posts: 150
Unit: NHQ-007

« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2017, 10:34:57 PM »


A track runs across each of the weekends (5 weekends per rating), so one cannot pick and choose which weekends to come.

So looking at the schedule linked below, if someone is already a MS and wants to train for MO, he just twiddles his thumbs the first two weekends(?):

http://wess.alwg.us/schedule.aspx
No, MO training starts in January as well.  The first thing that MO trainees do is review MS.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Gotcha. That answers my question. WESS Aircrew training is best for someone new who isn't already an MS or MO and can start from scratch and get both knocked out. Otherwise you're spending weekends 'reviewing' stuff you should already know and have been practicing.
Not necessarily.   We have members of all experience levels attend the program.  As a matter of fact, I received a message this week from one of last year's MO graduates.  He is registering for the MO course again this year, as he enjoyed it enough to want to come back and learn more.  It heartens me to see that there are members out there who don't view a rating as a destination, but as a starting point.


Also note that you cannot get both MS and MO in the same cycle, and MS is a prerequisite to attend the MO program.
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Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
Deputy Director, National Emergency Services Academy
nesa.cap.gov
mlong (at) nesa.cap.gov
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 853

« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2017, 10:46:27 PM »



Also note that you cannot get both MS and MO in the same cycle.

That needs to be made clear in the schedule. Confusing the ways its presented. It sure 'appears' to be MS weeks 1 and 2, and then you progress to MO weeks 3 and 4. Two weekends per should be ample time for each:

http://wess.alwg.us/schedule.aspx

I cannot imagine telling someone they should attend WESS for 5 weeks just to end up a MS. Stay local and get it done over one weekend. HOWEVER ... yes, I do understand some folks want the full WESS experience, and all the other things they will learn along the way.

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MS - MO - AP - MP
husker
Forum Regular

Posts: 150
Unit: NHQ-007

« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2017, 11:06:01 PM »


Also note that you cannot get both MS and MO in the same cycle.

That needs to be made clear in the schedule. Confusing the ways its presented. It sure 'appears' to be MS weeks 1 and 2, and then you progress to MO weeks 3 and 4. Two weekends per should be ample time for each:

I cannot imagine telling someone they should attend WESS for 5 weeks just to end up a MS. Stay local and get it done over one weekend. HOWEVER ... yes, I do understand some folks want the full WESS experience, and all the other things they will learn along the way.

The first year I ran a Mission Aircrew school, we did try to get students through MS and MO in one cycle.  However, what we found was that it was difficult to get students through both sets of tasks while following the evaluation criteria of the task guide.  I was not comfortable with the level of training provided, so we expanded each track to the whole cycle.  Overall, the response from both students and staff was very positive to the change, so I have kept it that way.  Students get plenty of flights, and good hands on training across five weekends.   The program is not for everyone, but I am proud of the quality of students that we graduate.
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Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
Deputy Director, National Emergency Services Academy
nesa.cap.gov
mlong (at) nesa.cap.gov
Spam
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Posts: 949
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2017, 11:12:33 PM »


I can't imagine (and will officially question) how someone becomes a GTM3 full qual in one weekend. Same for MO. The classroom work alone, let alone the requirement for two missions, preclude being able to do that. It is logistically impossible.


When I see someone pushing a GTM3 up the chain with all the tasks (including first aid and comm training) on a single date, I end up pulling the quals of whoever the SET was who endorsed the candidate for a little chat.


V/r
Spam

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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 853

« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2017, 11:14:32 PM »


The first year I ran a Mission Aircrew school, we did try to get students through MS and MO in one cycle.  However, what we found was that it was difficult to get students through both sets of tasks while following the evaluation criteria of the task guide.  I was not comfortable with the level of training provided, so we expanded each track to the whole cycle.  Overall, the response from both students and staff was very positive to the change, so I have kept it that way.  Students get plenty of flights, and good hands on training across five weekends.   The program is not for everyone, but I am proud of the quality of students that we graduate.

^^^ That should be first and foremost in the descriptive materials for WESS. Good info and explanation. :)
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 853

« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2017, 11:21:39 PM »


I can't imagine (and will officially question) how someone becomes a GTM3 full qual in one weekend. Same for MO. The classroom work alone, let alone the requirement for two missions, preclude being able to do that. It is logistically impossible.


Local squadron level ....

IF ... the person has been studying the task guides ahead of time (as I assume they should even for WESS) then the classroom time is review and explaining things not understood and practicing using maps, etc.. I could teach a prepared and interested member in one day and then give him two eval sorties the next day.

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MS - MO - AP - MP
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