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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Air Force doing away with weight standards?
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Author Topic: Air Force doing away with weight standards?  (Read 5784 times)
abdsp51
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2017, 05:38:19 PM »

So if an fat and or fuzzy is not a second class citizen in the corporate uniform, why doesn't everyone wear the corporate uniform so we would all be uniform?  If there is not disdain for the corporate uniform by those fit and firm, why don't they embrace the corporate uniform to be inclusive and uniform with all members?

Oh, and since when is 24,000 discharged a handful?  That is almost half of what we lost in Nam.  I am sure the Army Times would differ with your opinion of their reporting.

Provide a valid source for your assertion of 24K besides something that is in no way affiliated with the DoD. and the Army Times and you can disagree with me all day long but they nor any of the times publications are hardly noteworthy or worthwhile resources for information. Quit crying about not be able to wear something and grow up, the only one making you second class is you. 
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 949
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2017, 07:19:06 PM »

1. Its not in fact happening as you say (the disdain you subjectively feel).

I am both fat and fuzzy and I'm helping to run a Wing.

My boss is neither fat nor fuzzy and she alternates corporate and USAF style (she, like me, publicly weighed in at Commanders Call).

We held our last Commanders Call with a uniform of the day as Corporate. Fifty or so commanders and deputies, all in corporate... a sea of Georgia CAP officers in enough gray to have made Joe Johnston misty eyed. The rationale though was not to push one uniform over another... it was to avoid embarrassing members ("Respect" value) as we pushed the "reset" button on this weight/USAF style issue.



2. Why do they all not obey your call for conformity?

If you assert that "uniform" means "everyone wears the same, all the time", I'd reply that you need to get off the costume issue, and get on board with the mission. From revolutionary war days to today, the services have worn the right outfit for the mission. Is your mission to "feel good about yourself", or to fly and serve?

It sounds like you're demanding that members abandon USAF style to obey "inclusiveness" and avoid "offense"... I'm wondering how you square these leftist notions of "inclusiveness" being a mandate to all be the same with the mantra of diversity which values individual differences?  Diversity is something which I'm actually all behind: aren't you supportive of members who CAN wear USAF style? Or, are you aware that you're coming across as petulantly demanding "well if I can't wear it, NO ONE SHOULD"?

V/r
Spam

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etodd
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2017, 08:26:00 PM »

Take the time that folks talk, debate, and argue over uniform issues ... both here, at meetings, SAREXs, etc. etc. ... and devote that time to missions and outreach ....

As folks like me have said before .... that person stuck in a crashed airplane doesn't give a #@&%# what the folks looking for him are wearing.

I could fly missions very well with my gut hanging over cut-off jeans, a Jimmy Buffett t-shirt and barefoot.  LOL

Yes ... I jest a little. But really .... me thinks many folks have their purdy starched uniform way too high on the priority list. To hear some talk, maybe its the real reason some are here at all. (?)
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Spam
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2017, 09:40:45 PM »

Amen, etodd.

That's the core issue. There is a huge segment that cares mainly about how CAP validates them - uniforms that bring back the glory days of a slimmer youth, or salutes from cadets and "subordinates" for those who never were able to serve. Its like the fantasy of Comic-Con, in USAF blue costumes, for some.

Then, I believe, those fantasy dress up elements correlate to some extent with hazardous attitudes that become a mission impediment, when people ignore/fudge aircraft weight and balance (if you can't be honest with your own weight?), when people skip the DAILY required Form 73 vehicle inspections, when people ignore flight duty day restrictions, etc.  Having seen a fatality or two from those attitudes (on actual missions - one FLWG, one MDWG) I see the need to hold the line. This is a standards issue.

Its an impediment for guys and girls that just want to fly and serve, and its a poor example for the cadets watching us, and we've got to get over it.

Spam


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CAP9907
Recruit

Posts: 24
Unit: NER-000

« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2017, 11:18:40 PM »

Well said Spam and etodd. As we all know, the only required ‘uniform’ for SM’s is the white/grey combo... AF blues are optional and only for those that can wear it. Nobody is being excluded here, in fact if you do not have the white/grey combo, you are out of uniform and non-compliant. This Corporate ‘uniform’ better represents our status as AF Aux... I can but do not wear AF blues because I am not AF and do not need to look like it. Just my opinion, YMMV.
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PHall
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2017, 11:25:25 PM »

Well said Spam and etodd. As we all know, the only required ‘uniform’ for SM’s is the white/grey combo... AF blues are optional and only for those that can wear it. Nobody is being excluded here, in fact if you do not have the white/grey combo, you are out of uniform and non-compliant. This Corporate ‘uniform’ better represents our status as AF Aux... I can but do not wear AF blues because I am not AF and do not need to look like it. Just my opinion, YMMV.

Too bad that many senior members are under the impression, mostly due to being misinformed by their chain of command, that the required uniform is the Golf Shirt Combo. And many of them, even after being shown the 39-1, will not wear the White Aviator shirt Combo.
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raivo
Seasoned Member

Posts: 440
Unit: Migrant

« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2017, 11:31:57 PM »

Don't worry, I'm sure that if this is an issue (hint: it isn't) the cadre at USAFA are well equipped to handle it.

I'm sure there are plenty of other things closer to your lane for you to spend your time worrying about.
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sardak
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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2017, 12:14:00 AM »

Here's an article that interviews the football  coaches of Army, Navy and Air Force in which they talk about how the players and coaches deal with the height and weight requirements.
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/5/21/5736040/college-football-military-service-academies

This is Capt Ben Garland, USAF, currently serving with the Colorado Air National Guard Public Affairs office. He played 4 years of football with the Falcons of the USAFA. His senior year roster shows him as 6'5'', 275 lbs.


This is Capt Ben Garland, USAF, currently playing football as a guard with the Falcons of Spam and Joe's land. The roster shows him as 6'5" 308 lbs.


This interview explains how Capt Garland balances the Guard and football.
http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/243189/ben-garland-a-captain-of-a-different-stripe-for-falcons

Mike
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kwe1009
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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2017, 09:43:02 AM »

Why should CAP members all be in the same uniform when not even the USAF wants to do that themselves?  I work at HQ ACC and see ABU, FDU, OCP, blues, etc. every day. 
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Cliff_Chambliss
Seasoned Member

Posts: 395

« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2017, 09:43:34 AM »

been on both sides of the height/weight issue.  Active Duty Army:  At 5'9" my weight averaged 150.  The height/weight tables allowed my weight to go up to 186lb.  However at 160 I began to feel bloated and cut back to my "comfortable" weight.  PT test results were typically in the 260-275 range.  Since retirement my weight has gone to 175, and my 4 mile run days are a thing of the past. 
On the other hand, my daughters husband was Air Force:  (Son of an Army Aviator, Daughter of an Army Tanker, they marry he joins the Air Force to become a boat mechanic).  Ken was a good guy and sharp at his job, hit all the promotion points and made it to E5 pretty quickly.  But he had problems pushing himself away from the table.  His Commander worked with him and gave him every chance, my daughter tried healthy cooking, everything fresh nothing canned or processed), but could not stop him from his pizza stops on the way home, or his stash of candy bars, etc.  He finally wound up with a Bar to Reenlistment and left the Air Force with an Honorable Discharge.

Now why on earth would someone feel like a second class citizen by wearing the grey-white 'uniform'?  I'm sorry, but if I heard that I would have to respond with an appropriate comment along the lines of "suck it up cupcake"  for here is someone that has not yet learned it's the person that makes the uniform, not the other way around.
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KarlIceman
Recruit

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Unit: NCR-NE-999

« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2017, 10:13:19 AM »

... I guess not all fat members are fat members?  ...

I would slightly correct your question to read "not all OVERWEIGHT members are fat members".

There are many DoD members who are over the anthropometric height/weight tables. It isn't an unusual thing for members to be assessed against allowable body fat and fitness standards in such instances. I participated in a mishap investigation once where the pilot (a former academy wrestler) inadvertently knocked the gear handle with his (massive!) knee during ACM, causing damage. Huge? Heck yes. Fat? Probably a very low percentage (I forget honestly, but the guy was very fit). In my career I've measured many very large and small pilots and maintainers (working with ASC/EN, AFRL, NAWC-AD, and AMRDEC) and I have to tell you, the determination of fitness and suitability for job assignments takes a heck of a lot more than looking at some pics/TV footage.

Disclosure: I earned my "Spam" call sign one early morning because I was told by an instructor that I fit the forward cockpit like "Spam in a can - meat wall to wall". Sigh... I've had the fun of having to do the tape test (passed , or I used to at least).   


... They have made overweight CAP members feel like second class members and now they do this.


"They" (the Air Force) continue to graciously allow CAP members to wear their USAF style uniforms, given that we (CAP) restrict their wear to members meeting the first tier review (height/weight tables, plus an allowance). CAP doesn't have the resources to do individual assessments/body fat tests - but don't put that on USAF. If CAP members want to wear military style, nothing other than their own height/weight is preventing that.

AirAux, you should know that you're not considered a second class member, for wearing a corporate uniform. If you feel butt hurt or triggered over this, that's on you (not USAF). I hung up the USAF style myself a while back, until I get in shape and lose the weight. If I don't, no big deal - its CLOTHING - and I have many other options.

Its only the members who continue to wear USAF style in defiance of the regs that I consider not second class, but "at risk" members, whom I will continue to counsel IAW the regs. The inability to comply with (or the flouting of) CAP uniform regs is to my mind a leading indicator of risk in other areas of CAP. So, if anyone gets extra scrutiny and perhaps remedial attention, its them. (See the "five hazardous attitudes" FAA briefs).

V/r
Spam
Thank you Spam for your point of view.  I have only been in CAP for 40 years as well as time served in the USAF, during this time I have witnessed "civilians" commenting on the looks of CAP members in uniform.  Many of these comments came from folks not realizing that what they saw were not active AF personnel but CAP members.  These comments were both positive as well as negative.  How we as CAP members stand up to the h/w standards can have a BIG reflection on the USAF.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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dwb
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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2017, 11:20:00 AM »

So if an fat and or fuzzy is not a second class citizen in the corporate uniform, why doesn't everyone wear the corporate uniform so we would all be uniform?  If there is not disdain for the corporate uniform by those fit and firm, why don't they embrace the corporate uniform to be inclusive and uniform with all members?

I can only speak for the corners of CAP where I have lived, but... they do. I've seen plenty of CAP members who could wear the USAF uniform wearing something else instead (golf shirt, aviator, etc.) Including our recently former CAP/CC, Maj Gen Vazquez.

If this were 20 years ago, I would agree with you that corporate uniforms == second-class uniforms. But that simply isn't the case anymore in a lot of areas of CAP. The culture has changed, and continues to change. How you wear your uniform and how you perform your job are much more important than which uniform you're wearing.
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etodd
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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2017, 12:56:11 PM »


Too bad that many senior members are under the impression, mostly due to being misinformed by their chain of command, that the required uniform is the Golf Shirt Combo. And many of them, even after being shown the 39-1, will not wear the White Aviator shirt Combo.

Yeah we've had many discussions of that. Bottom line is that I'm required to 'have it'.  But I've never been required to 'wear it'.  So yes, I 'have it' sitting in a plastic bag in my closet were it will stay. I'm 'legal'.  LOL
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 01:03:22 PM by etodd » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2017, 01:14:09 PM »

If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?
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etodd
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Posts: 853

« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2017, 01:27:09 PM »

If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?

Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2017, 01:33:06 PM »

If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?

Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.

Great - so why not wear it to meetings?
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vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2017, 02:22:11 PM »

If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?

Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.

Youre eating and drinking during CAP flying missions? Jeeez how long are those flights anyway
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Alaric
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Posts: 750

« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2017, 02:23:24 PM »


Too bad that many senior members are under the impression, mostly due to being misinformed by their chain of command, that the required uniform is the Golf Shirt Combo. And many of them, even after being shown the 39-1, will not wear the White Aviator shirt Combo.

Yeah we've had many discussions of that. Bottom line is that I'm required to 'have it'.  But I've never been required to 'wear it'.  So yes, I 'have it' sitting in a plastic bag in my closet were it will stay. I'm 'legal'.  LOL

YMMV but at least once a year there is some event that requires the blues or corporate equivalent.  Additionally, when I was a commander I encouraged my seniors to wear the uniform we were requiring of the cadets.  So on promotion/award night I expected to see either blues or the corporate equivalent.
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etodd
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Posts: 853

« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2017, 04:22:00 PM »

If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?

Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.

Youre eating and drinking during CAP flying missions? Jeeez how long are those flights anyway


Well if you're on a SAREX and you're cleared for your sortie just before the lunch arrives, you have to take your own with you, as there will be no food left when you return.

Something like this always works. LOL

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PHall
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« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2017, 09:03:32 PM »

If you have it, why wouldn't you wear it?

Much more comfortable flying the plane in the polo instead of a starched shirt. Easier to maintain. Have 3 to rotate. Stains and spills don't show as bad, as I'm snacking on those longs flights. No worry about nameplate and epaulets, etc., etc.

Must be nice to be able to fly in the Golf Shirt combo. In Pacific Region the only authorized uniform for powered flight is the Flight Suit unless you're flying a CD mission and the customer requests no uniforms.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Air Force doing away with weight standards?
 


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