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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Prospective Cadet Member Participation in CPFT/Physical Fitness Training
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68w20
Forum Regular

Posts: 163

« on: September 21, 2017, 01:14:38 PM »

Our unit has traditionally told prospective Cadet Members that they could not participate in CPFT or Physical Fitness activities.  They were, of course, welcome to attend the meeting and take part in other training events.  When pressed for reasoning behind this, leadership (including myself, admittedly) tended to respond with something to the effect of "The Regstm say so." 

The question was recently raised again by a new SM, and I found myself searching at length for a solid answer as to why.  After looking through CAPP 52-18, CAPR 52-16, and CAPR 39-2, I was unable to find anything specifically barring Cadets from participating in CPFT.  I also could not find any topics on this forum discussing these questions.  There is a section in CAPR 39-2 which reads as follows:

"2.2.8.1. During the trial period, unit commanders will only permit prospective cadets to
participate in cadet activities that are not physically rigorous
, including classroom activities, drill
and ceremonies, and low-impact field activities such as rocketry, simple orienteering, volleyball,
and similar endeavors, provided the young person reports to have no physical limitations or
injuries.

2.2.8.2. Prospective cadets are prohibited from participating in overnight activities, flying,
riding in CAP vehicles, participating in physically-rigorous field activities such as hiking and
obstacle course
, and participating in any activity that would qualify as “high adventure” per CAPR
52-16, chapter 2."

The way I interpret this is that prospective Cadet Members may not participate in physically-rigorous activities on par with hiking or obstacle courses.
 I also interpret this to read that prospective Cadet Members may participate in the CPFT, given that it is not explicitly stated otherwise.

I recognize, however, that my interpretation may be flawed.  Am I missing something obvious here?  Is our current practice required by regulation?  If not required, is it a best practice that's been adopted across the board by other Squadrons? 
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GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 122
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 01:24:54 PM »

As the deputy commander for cadets I have recently decided that we do not want prospective cadets to participate in the mile run. I am concerned about liability issues since the squadron is not covered by insurance if they are not members and where we do our PT testing they will likely be out of the sight of senior members during a portion of the run. I think the other parts of the testing are ok as they will be under observation at all times and won't have the peer pressure to complete the exercise that they do with the run. We do start all meeting with a safety briefing.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 01:40:24 PM »

I'd agree that they may, whether they should is probably a local call, with factors like GaryVC's to consider, not to mention
the authorization of the parents.

I would think liability would be a non-issue as you're conducting normal unit activities, and PT is allowed for new members.

Whether the mile run is considered "rigorous" is in the eye of the beholder.

I've let new members participate in the past, however as PT night are usually a lot less formal, and for us they don't even
take place where the unit meets otherwise, I usually discourage a "first-nighter" from a PT meeting, though by the 3rd meeting,
it's hard to keep them, if only because of the calendar.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 01:41:33 PM »

When I took over as CDC, I initially had them run CPFTs as diagnostics.  Then the insurance and possible liabilities were brought up, and when I found the quote that has already been posted, I decided against continuing this practice.  My reasoning:

- The reg is far too vague, and I don't trust CAP not to hang me out to dry if something happens.

- If you wait until they've done the membership application, you have a parent vouching for that cadet's physical capabilities with specific tasks (run a mile, calisthenics, etc).
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,120

« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2017, 01:41:59 PM »

Let me see if I can help.

Initially, I'm not sure if your are asking about the CPFT specifically or Physical Fitness activities in general.  And I think that is an important distinction.

As you correctly note, prospective cadets are welcome to participate in almost all of the weeknight activities, with the exception of "physically rigorous" activities. 

The CPFT itself is --essentially by definition -- a physically rigorous activity in the sense that cadets individually perform to their personal maximums on each of the events.  It is hard to imagine how a prospective cadet could run their best mile and not have it be physically rigorous.  Not to mention pushups or curl ups.  I suppose the sit and reach is not particularly rigorous. 

But the unit is encourage to have a variety of physical fitness activities besides the CPFT itself.  Things like sports, calisthenics, nutritional briefings, etc.  See CAPP 52-18 for ideas and guidance.  And some of those activities may not be physically rigorous and accordingly a prospective cadet is welcome to participate.  We count on experienced CP officers at each unit to provide the necessary guidance on what is physically rigorous or not.  As you might imagine, it would be difficult to write a regulation that listed all the possible physical fitness activities known to man and provide guidance as to which are "physically rigorous."  I have faith in our local leaders.

I suspect the idea behind the guidance is to take extra precautions to ensure that prospective cadets are not injured.  Members, including cadets, are covered by CAP's accident, life, and medical benefits are described in CAPR 900-5, while non-members like prospective cadets are not.

Anyway, that's my take.  Feel free to contact me directly if I can answer any questions.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,996

« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2017, 01:42:16 PM »

- If you wait until they've done the membership application, you have a parent vouching for that cadet's physical capabilities with specific tasks (run a mile, calisthenics, etc).

A good point.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2017, 02:51:10 PM »

- If you wait until they've done the membership application, you have a parent vouching for that cadet's physical capabilities with specific tasks (run a mile, calisthenics, etc).

A good point.

That happens.  Rarely, but sometimes.
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68w20
Forum Regular

Posts: 163

« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2017, 10:10:44 AM »

Awesome, thanks everybody.  We've decided that we'll keep the practice going of not having prospective members participate in CPFT, or in "physically rigorous" fitness activities during PT nights.  It seems like the best way to balance potential member interest while also covering us in case someone were to get injured prior to becoming a member.  Thanks again.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2017, 10:14:48 AM »

If you have a cohort, we've used Learn to Lead activities and icebreakers while cadets do PT. 
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 884

« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2017, 01:46:56 PM »

Our cadets do not participate in the CPFT, effectively just the mile run, due to the fact that we do not have their medical "sign-off" on their application listing any conditions. The run is generally considered, for us, a physical intense exercise because it is usually the most challenging and causes/contributes to the most medical issues for cadets (asthma, lack of training, chest pains, sprains, etc). But we run on an open road (side road, but road nonetheless) and I'm not taking that risk without the forms.

We encourage the push-ups and curl-ups, but leave it up to the prospect if they want to participate.

Depending on the field training we may do, there are times where I will have our Recruiting Officer make sure he tells prospects not to attend that particular meeting, or if they show up, try to find a way to have them pair alongside a member of the staff and not the training group in some cases. I have enough problems trying not to lose my own cadets, let alone someone else's kid.  :P
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 949
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2017, 02:13:19 PM »

You take nonmember recruits into the field, regularly? I have known members to bring their dependent "pre-cadets" with them, under their personal supervision, but... recruits off the street with no parental supervision? Are any of these overnight FTXs?

V/r
Spam

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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 884

« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2017, 04:45:13 PM »

You take nonmember recruits into the field, regularly? I have known members to bring their dependent "pre-cadets" with them, under their personal supervision, but... recruits off the street with no parental supervision? Are any of these overnight FTXs?

V/r
Spam

If this was in response to me...

I think my definition of "field training" may differ from some people. Basically, anything conducted outdoors that isn't drill, PT, or aerospace in a wider area of terrain (e.g., compass course around the airport, ELT search, etc.)---training in "the field," operations-based. No, we do not take recruits off the street over the river and through the woods. That's irresponsibility of liability.

And our FTXs are unit-only.
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Prospective Cadet Member Participation in CPFT/Physical Fitness Training
 


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