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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: What CAP-Talk Was, And What Its Become
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Author Topic: What CAP-Talk Was, And What Its Become  (Read 5457 times)
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 10,922

« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2017, 03:41:42 PM »

As one of the historically (but now, not so much) frequent posters I suppose that I'm apt to get a little defensive when people complain about folks like me who have (or used to) comment so much.

We can't help it if the vast majority of CAPTalk users don't post very often.  Its like CAP itself -- 20% of the people do 80% of the work. 

And if you haven't noticed, us frequent users are the ones that start most of the threads.

Don't want half the posts coming from the same people?  Post something yourself and reduce the percentage that comes from us. 
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Nick
Seasoned Member

Posts: 473
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2017, 09:51:21 PM »

I take a great issue with the response to regulation-related questions being “go look it up”, “ask your chain of command”, or otherwise shooting down the question.

In nearly the same amount of time it takes someone to say “go ask your chain of command”, you can very easily point the person in the right direction to the reg, perhaps give a little context based on your experience, add a cautionary flag that “this or that may vary depending on your wing, unit, etc” and then guide the member to follow up with their chain of command for additional information.

As a commander, I want my members (particularly the cadets who are learning how to do this in school) to have done some research before coming and asking me to explain the rules to them. If they come armed with some knowledge, I will spend all day helping frame that knowledge for them. Their experience on CAPTalk should be part of the research, and being told “not here kid, go find it somewhere else” is not the right way to mentor these members.


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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,523

« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2017, 08:24:02 AM »

Quote
If they come armed with some knowledge... Their experience on CAPTalk should be part of the research, and being told “not here kid, go find it somewhere else” is not the right way to mentor these members.


If you provide the answer, how are they going to develop skills needed to "come armed with some knowledge?"

My experience as a library teacher is that the majority of young adults will not want to read or open documents. Among the questions I got was "I want a summary of the Cliffs Notes." For those of you that do not know what Cliffs Notes are, it is a summary of great works. So that student was asking for a summary of a summary!
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Squadron Administrative Officer
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AlphaSigOU
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Posts: 2,151
Unit: PCR-NV-069

The Kwaj Drafter!
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2017, 09:30:44 AM »

My experience as a library teacher is that the majority of young adults will not want to read or open documents. Among the questions I got was "I want a summary of the Cliffs Notes." For those of you that do not know what Cliffs Notes are, it is a summary of great works. So that student was asking for a summary of a summary!
It's pathetic what these kids today have become... unable and/or unwilling to crack open a book because they demand instant gratification.


And they ask me why I drink??!?!? :) ;) :D
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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
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Nick
Seasoned Member

Posts: 473
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2017, 09:43:58 AM »

I never said provide the answer. They come to CAPTalk and ask about a particular whatever, we should at least set them in the right direction to help them find the answer instead of just the default answer of shutting them down. Then when they come to their chain of command with the question, that person should ask them what have they found so far and work through reaching a conclusion.

Yes, kids these days (boy I never believed I would hear myself say that) want immediate, short answers. This is the generation of instant gratification. But the real world doesn’t work that way, and it is our responsibility to prepare these cadets for the real world even if it goes against what they are accustomed to.


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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
JoeTomasone
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,659

« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2017, 11:03:02 AM »


As a commander, I want my members (particularly the cadets who are learning how to do this in school) to have done some research before coming and asking me to explain the rules to them. If they come armed with some knowledge, I will spend all day helping frame that knowledge for them. Their experience on CAPTalk should be part of the research, and being told “not here kid, go find it somewhere else” is not the right way to mentor these members.

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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NIN
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« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2017, 11:59:54 AM »

Agree with Nick on this.

In my "other job," I instruct in a particular unforgiving aviation evironment that doesn't lend itself well to neglect or ignorance.  And it doesn't lend itself particularly well to short, "low information" answers to things. The environment is complex, ever changing, and the answer that way well save your life in Situation A and Situation B might actually kill you in Situation C, even though at first glance Situation C is just the same as Situation A & B.  In other words, it rewards the fully-informed and trained individual, versus the "surface diver."  And it particularly doesn't lend itself well to internet-based training or instruction. You can get a *little*  in terms of background and rationale from the Internet (YouTube, in particular, although more often as an example of what NOT to do) but nothing beats in person instruction and actual on-the-ground practice followed by perfoming in the air.

As such, for the last 20+ years thru Internet-based forums, participants in online discussions have been quick to point out "If you're a student, your instructor is your best source of information, no some random guy on the internet" and "Don't got into your instructor saying 'well, the internet says...' because you'll get laughed at." 

That said, you can learn a lot of the background behind the environment, why equipment and training is the way it is, etc, via the internet. The "book learning" and "classroom specific" aspects lend themselves *somewhat* to individualized reading or discussion on the internet, but every environment, situation, instructor, equipment, pilot, etc are different, so what might be true of how things are done in Place A (discovered via the Interwebz) ain't always exactly the case in Place B, where the differences of equipment or environment might conspire to actually kill you if you did what they do in Place A, even though Place A and Place B conform to the nationally mandated guidance on the subject.

This has a lot of parallels in CAP.  Newbie reads the regs or other online guidance (knowledgebase, pamphlets) and then comes to CAP-Talk and says "Hey, I have a question about XYZ" because what he read in the guidance he found doesn't match the ground truth where he is.  Then he's told "READ THE REGS!"   Maybe half the reason he's here is because he DID read the regs and the regs, being somewhat abstract and ineloquent, just didn't explain to him what was going on and he needed additional, concrete examples of what that means.

Its still OK for people to say "OK, your chain of command is really the final word on this, but..." and explain how the practicl application of whatever his question is might collide with what the reg says. It happens. Every day.

Or maybe they didn't read the reg cuz they're so new to the organization that they don't even know there is a reg on that subject yet.  Imagine 2 month SM Timmy walked into your office wearing ABUs and a beret he picked up at clothing sales cuz it looked cool (don't laugh.. we had a Captain years ago do *exactly* this, not understanding that just because you can buy it at clothing sales doesn't mean you can just wear it.. He learned, quickly...). Do you shout "Get out of here and read 39-1. NOW!" No. Thats not leadership. Thats not mentorship. Thats not how it works.

"Hey, uh, Tim, take that nasty chef's hat looking thing off your noggin' and sit down for a second.. lets talk. You have an ABU cap? Good.  Uh, so about this beret you bought..."  and 39-1 comes out and a discussion ensues about headgear and authorization and uniformity and Timmy walks out of your office more informed and knowledgable than when he walked in.

And that should really be the goal here.

C/Amn Timmy comes along and goes "Can I buy all the ribbons in the Vanguard catalog now? Cuz I know I'm gonna get them!"  the response should be along the lines of "Tim, hey, first don't waste your money like that. Not evenbody has every ribbon, not even the National Commander.  You'll get the ribbons you're authorized on your journey thru CAP. Now, you should probably talk to your element leader or flight sergeant about these kinds of things, but CAPM 39-3 is really the place where you can learn more about ribbons and medals and awards.."

You might create the worlds biggest barracks lawyer doing that, but at least you didn't send the kid away questioning why he even joined in the first place.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2017, 12:03:21 PM »

Quote
If they come armed with some knowledge... Their experience on CAPTalk should be part of the research, and being told “not here kid, go find it somewhere else” is not the right way to mentor these members.


If you provide the answer, how are they going to develop skills needed to "come armed with some knowledge?"

My experience as a library teacher is that the majority of young adults will not want to read or open documents. Among the questions I got was "I want a summary of the Cliffs Notes." For those of you that do not know what Cliffs Notes are, it is a summary of great works. So that student was asking for a summary of a summary!

It isn’t the answer that has to be, or even should be, provided. Just something more than “Look it up, kid.”

Even the library staff wouldn’t say that to anybody. They’d say something like “Biographies, third floor” or “Fiction, over there - those books are in order of author’s last name.”

So what’s wrong with people here saying something like “You’ll find that in CAPM 39-1. It’s online?”


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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Cicero
Forum Regular

Posts: 105

« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2017, 01:35:28 PM »

I am new here. Posted just a few times. Probably will not post much again. Too negative, too ego driven and I am getting (unofficial) blowback from others for posting here at all. Mild so far, but a clear "warning" that this site has become "toxic".

FWIW I do believe a better TOS and a more proactive moderation could benefit all.


### 30 ###
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SamFranklin
Forum Regular

Posts: 190

« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2017, 02:47:16 PM »

I am an inactive but long-time CAP member and a lurker who agrees that CAP-Talk has become toxic. The good news is that in the mid-90s, as an email reflector CAP-Talk was even more toxic than it is now, so I have some optimism that the regulars here can turn things around. I don’t claim to be a social media expert, but I suggest these six principles could be helpful:


1.  Welcome newcomers.  But, saying, “Hi, welcome” is insufficient. Being welcoming means making them feel as if they can contribute to conversations without being put-down, and being able to ask dumb questions.   

2.  When engaging others in threads, ask first to understand, and don’t get into evaluating someone’s point of view right away.  If this principle is present, we'll see people admit to having changed their minds from time to time. Right now, that almost never happens.

3.  With odd questions and perspectives, follow the principle of charity. That is, read the question / odd idea in the most charitable light possible and engage from there.   

4.  Frequent visitors, limit your posts. Even if they’re great posts, when a handful of voices dominate a forum, they discourage newcomers and alternative viewpoints.   

5.  Police your own. When someone, especially a long-time participant, falls short of the ideals above, call them on it.

6.  If you're the site owner, you're partly responsible for whatever good or ill comes from the site, so beef-up the moderation if you don't find #1 through 5 matching your ideals.




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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 853

« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2017, 03:36:30 PM »

"Toxic?"

I haven't seen anything I would describe that way. But I enjoy debate. I enjoy trying to see issues from all sides and evaluating them.

At a CAP seminar type event one time, I asked a question about why something was done that way, and the reply to me was ... "Those decisions are above your grade level."   Now THAT was toxic and didn't go well. He finally gave me a 20 second answer that was perfect, all I needed to know, and should have been given at the start. Never tell a 61 year old business owner that anything is above his grade level. Never demean anyone that way. I'm not a minion/sheep. ;)

Here in the forum, I see it as a place where I can ask those tough questions that I would not want to ask in a Squadron meeting that would get it quickly sidetracked or at a time with Cadets present.

IOW ... I hope this place never just becomes a bunch of CAP cheerleaders, with no place where I can still ask ... why?
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MS - MO - AP - MP
CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2017, 05:01:26 PM »

...or at least did at one time.

 :-X :(
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
JayT
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,322

« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2017, 11:46:22 AM »

What exactly was the last straw for Cadetstuff?
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
NIN
VIP

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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2017, 11:56:16 AM »

What exactly was the last straw for Cadetstuff?

Airspeed, altitude, ideas.. and the folks who ran it all grew up and ran out of time.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Shieldel
Member

Posts: 85
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2017, 06:34:02 PM »

I'll chime in here.

Right out of the gates I'll say I'm always afraid or nervous or scared or sometimes a mix of all three to post here. The big names in this board (you all know who I'm talking about) kind of have the run of the place. And if you don't like it you'll be dogpiled. I got into an argument a few months back with Eclipse that led to SARDragon sending me a PM. Now yes what I said was totally out of line but it's people like Eclipse (the big names) that I'm talking about. You will be outcasted if they have an issue with anything you say. I feel this board has truly become toxic and has strayed far from the intended purpose. Ergo why I said right out of the gates I said I'm nervous to post here, it's just toxic and I find an all not too friendly environment.

When you have people who say "ask your local chain" as their default answer it gets pretty annoying. I signed onto this board as a cadet. I wasn't even asking for answers I asked for which reg can I find my answer and I still got the "default answer". It's really gotten annoying. Now as a flight officer I fear people think I'm hotheaded (especially after the argument a few months ago I mentioned above) I personally try to chill out here but I find myself having issues fitting in (it's the outcast issue I mention above) so I just find myself not posting.

That's my experience,
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Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,061
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« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2017, 09:13:56 PM »

People get the "chain of command" response because that should be the primary source of information for all members. If someone comes on here and asks questions without having consulted that primary source, then you are doing them and yourself a disservice.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 881

« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2017, 09:34:48 AM »

People get the "chain of command" response because that should be the primary source of information for all members. If someone comes on here and asks questions without having consulted that primary source, then you are doing them and yourself a disservice.

Not to mention the possibility that someone's chain of command may have given them an answer they didn't like, so they came here to get convinced that they're still right

Or to the converse, the chain of command was clueless and didn't help them find the answer
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 466

« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2017, 10:59:38 AM »




...

Or to the converse, the chain of command was clueless and didn't help them find the answer

In which case a little push back (with courtesy, respect, and NO defensiveness) may be very helpful.
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stillamarine
400,000th Post Author
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« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2017, 11:13:51 AM »




...

Or to the converse, the chain of command was clueless and didn't help them find the answer

In which case a little push back (with courtesy, respect, and NO defensiveness) may be very helpful.

The problem is most of the time that courtesy and respect isn't there.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
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CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2017, 12:01:35 PM »

Right out of the gates I'll say I'm always afraid or nervous or scared or sometimes a mix of all three to post here. The big names in this board (you all know who I'm talking about) kind of have the run of the place. And if you don't like it you'll be dogpiled.  Now yes what I said was totally out of line but it's people like Eclipse (the big names) that I'm talking about. You will be outcasted if they have an issue with anything you say.

 :-X

I got into an argument a few months back with Eclipse that led to SARDragon sending me a PM.

I have got a couple of PM's too but have endeavoured to explain myself to the good Moderator in logical, reasoned (I think) replies and he has not banned/restricted me.

I suppose that one day I will get banned, just because former members of CAP who are critical of some of the more shady ways that CAP operates (though they still have respect for the organisation and hope that one day it can change, not for me - I know I'm a discommended Klingon in the eyes of CAP - but maybe for those who come after me) are not well-received here.  If it happens, it happens...I don't take it personally (it's just a bloody internet forum!).
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
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