Wear of Uniforms Optional?

[davedove]

I'm sure we're all aware that CAPM 39-1 seems to say that a uniform must be worn at all CAP activities.  Yet, this paragraph from the Great Start publication has this:

Do members have to wear a uniform?

Cadets must wear the Air Force-style blue uniform
with special CAP patches. The cadet membership
application contains a voucher for one free uniform per
cadet. As long as they are available, the USAF provides
a uniform for the cadets at no charge. Call (334) 953-
1501 for more information.

Senior members may wear the USAF style blue
uniform or one of the distinctive CAP uniforms.  Some
members choose to serve without wearing a uniform,
although one of the CAP uniforms are required in
certain instances such as flying in a CAP aircraft.


This seems to say that senior members do not HAVE to wear a uniform except in certain circumstances.  I seem to recall reading this somewhere else as well.

Now, I enjoy wearing a uniform, and I feel it seems more professional, but this seems to say that it's not required.

[Dragoon]

As pointed out in a different thread, table 1-1 in 39-1 mandate uniform wear for almost everything we do. 

It didn't used to be this way - uniforms were required only for flying and working with cadets.

[RogueLeader]

When one says "May chose not too" and another says "Must"  The MUST passes, There are some like the Patron Membership works with cadets- driving, chaperoning, etc. but they do not get uniforms.  Actives are required to be in uniform.

[Dragoon]

It's likely that this disconnect is because even folks at National haven't all realized that 39-1 changed.

[Hawk200]

When one says "May chose not too" and another says "Must"  The MUST passes, There are some like the Patron Membership works with cadets- driving, chaperoning, etc. but they do not get uniforms.  Actives are required to be in uniform.

I believe you're thinking of the Cadet Sponsor Member program. A parent or guardian does those things, but I do know they get a nametag with name and "Cadet Sponsor Member" on it. Patron members, for the most part, do not participate except upon invitation of the commander.

[IceNine]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

[RogueLeader]

Now See. . .
It's called preparedness.  I work until 5:30, my meeting is at 6:30.  Oh, I've been working an extra 45 min all this/last week.  I don't have time, wait, let me put a uniform in a garment bag, then I can change when I get there. . .

A little forethought goes a long way.

[Eclipse]

What they said.

We're supposed to be a cut above the average citizen. 

Take 5 minutes to get a uniform together and show up looking good.  Changing in your office, or the bathroom at work might actually get you a little attention and act as subliminal (or overt) recruiting.

I'm sure when all the "busy" people get home from work tonight, this thread will fill up with the myriad
excuses why "my personal life is so much more dramatic than yours...and I couldn't possibly find the time to get in a uniform...and you just don't understand...and you're lucky I show up at all.

I'll save you some time:

Its not.
You can.
I do.
We're not.

  And I literally just laughed out loud, which made the people on this train a bit nervous...

[RogueLeader]

Yeah, I want people to have 18 hr credit load of 300-400 level college classes, 35+ hrs at work, CAP and maintaining a 3.8 GPA for the Semester.

[Murph]

I have to agree with Bob (mostly because he's my boss) - however - it takes 5 minutes, tops, to slap on the polo and gray slacks.

Blues - maybe 10 minutes if you prep them before bed.

BDU's - also about 10 minutes with boots etc.

[RogueLeader]

Yeah, I want people to have 18 hr credit load of 300-400 level college classes, 35+ hrs at work, CAP and maintaining a 3.8 GPA for the Semester.

It is not as easy as it might seem,  also have to toss in extreme emotional distress.

[mikeylikey]

^??  Did I miss your point?  Responding to your comment about school and stuff......Congrats on finding the time for CAP I guess!

[Pumbaa]

I have a bag with my flightsuit in my truck, with boots, socks, etc.. ready for a call at any time.

Usually on work days I wear my grey pants, and then just keep the polo on a hanger in my truck...

There is no excuse to not having at least a basic uniform ready.

Right now I have grey pants and aviator on a hanger in my truck.. Well those are still left over from NER SARCOMP and the shirt is really rank, so never mind on that one

[mdickinson]

CAPM 39-1 seems to say that a uniform must be worn at all CAP activities.  Yet the "Great Start" publication has this: [...]

Some members choose to serve without wearing a uniform,
     although one of the CAP uniforms are required in certain instances such as flying in a CAP aircraft.

This seems to say that senior members do not HAVE to wear a uniform except in certain circumstances.  I seem to recall reading this somewhere else as well.

In answer to the original question, I believe CAP requires uniform wear in two cases:

1. when working with cadets
2. when flying in CAP aircraft.

If I remember correctly, uniform wear is optional in all other circumstances. (Depending on what parts of CAP you participate in, those two cases could translate to "98% of the time" or "just about never.")

Technically this means that seniors attending a composite squadron meeting must come in uniform, since cadets are present, but those attending meetings of a senior squadron can come-as-they-are.

I agree with those posters who have pointed out that it takes very little effort for someone to wear the golf-shirt uniform or the aviator-shirt uniform. Both are extremely useful/convenient. When I was commuting into NYC for work, I kept my aviator shirt and gray slacks in a garment bag in the squadron office. That way I could walk from work to the armory, grab my garment bag, change my shirt & pants, and attend the rest of the meeting "in uniform." A side bonus of this method was that the shirt & pants take forever to get dirty when you only wear them for 90 minutes a week!

When a new senior is considering joining the organization, I suggest downplaying the uniform. I simply say "you'll need to wear a uniform at squadron meetings, at SAREXs, and when you're flying, but it's very simple, just a golf shirt or a white aviator shirt with a few items on it. Do you have a pair of gray slacks, a black leather belt, and a pair of black shoes? Great, then you already own most of it. Order a golf shirt, an aviator shirt, a nametag, and a pair of epaulette slides from www.thehock.com, and in a few days you'll be all set."

My experience is that this low-key approach ("just get a golf shirt for flying, and an aviator shirt for meetings/conferences") pays off by making the new member comfortable, reducing their (natural) concern about how much $ they're going to have to lay out, and the risk of wearing the uniform wrong. It makes it easier to join and fit in. But I have noticed that those who attend meetings regularly or fly regularly often naturally ask on their own after a few months "how do I get a flight suit" or "where can I obtain a BDU?" :-)

[1LtNurseOfficer]

If I may, let me throw a small wrench in here.....  I'd love to wear the uniform, but I don't have the extra money to buy one.  Does this mean I can't work with cadets?  Or be the squadron medical officer?   

[Dragoon]

In answer to the original question, I believe CAP requires uniform wear in two cases:

1. when working with cadets
2. when flying in CAP aircraft.

If I remember correctly, uniform wear is optional in all other circumstances. (Depending on what parts of CAP you participate in, those two cases could translate to "98% of the time" or "just about never.")

Technically this means that seniors attending a composite squadron meeting must come in uniform, since cadets are present, but those attending meetings of a senior squadron can come-as-they-are.

Things have changed.  The latest 39-1, in table 1-1, states CAP members will wear uniforms "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions."

[ddelaney103]

If I may, let me throw a small wrench in here.....  I'd love to wear the uniform, but I don't have the extra money to buy one.  Does this mean I can't work with cadets?  Or be the squadron medical officer?   

Pretty much.

Frankly, if you can't spring the $60 for the golf shirt uniform, you may not have the resources to be in CAP.

[Eclipse]

If I may, let me throw a small wrench in here.....  I'd love to wear the uniform, but I don't have the extra money to buy one.  Does this mean I can't work with cadets? 

You can't work with cadets if you can't find some way to put together a uniform.

>> HARSH ALERT <<

Between Squadron uniform stashes, eBay, benevolent members, and the fact that a gold shirt costs about $17, if you are able to find some way to put together some kind of uniform, you probably do not have the resources to be an asset to the organization, and should focus your time and efforts elsewhere.

>> END HARSH ALERT <<

Or be the squadron medical officer?   

Since you are a Nurse, you cannot be a Squadron Medical Officer, anyway.  You >could< be a Health Service Officer, however you could have no contact with cadets.

[jimmydeanno]

If I may, let me throw a small wrench in here.....  I'd love to wear the uniform, but I don't have the extra money to buy one.  Does this mean I can't work with cadets?  Or be the squadron medical officer?   

If you already own a pair of grey or gray slacks, black belt, and black shoes, you can have a CAP uniform for under $20.

The silk-screened golf shirt is the cheapest way to get into uniform on your own. 
CAP Golf Shirt Linky

Of course, if your squadron has a fairly decent supply room, you could get into BDUs cheaper if all the major items were issued (blouse, trousers, cap, boots) you can get all the rest of the stuff for under $15

[capchiro]

Actually, she wouldn't be a health service officer, she would be a nurse officer.  And as interesting as it has always been, the only mandatory uniform for cadets is the minimum basic uniform, blue shirt, blue pants, etc., and all other uniforms are optional, unless provided by the squadron or if the wear is voluntary.  In other words, unless the squadron provides the cadet with BDU's, they can not be required to wear them.  I have always found this to be intersting and of great debate value as some squadrons apparently have access to great stores of BDU's and others don't. Oh, and by the way, Roxan, if you will move from Kansas to Georgia and be in my squadron, I will buy you a uniform..

[Eclipse]

Actually, she wouldn't be a health service officer, she would be a nurse officer.  And as interesting as it has always been, the only mandatory uniform for cadets is the minimum basic uniform, blue shirt, blue pants, etc., and all other uniforms are optional, unless provided by the squadron or if the wear is voluntary.  In other words, unless the squadron provides the cadet with BDU's, they can not be required to wear them.  I have always found this to be intersting and of great debate value as some squadrons apparently have access to great stores of BDU's and others don't. Oh, and by the way, Roxan, if you will move from Kansas to Georgia and be in my squadron, I will buy you a uniform..

True enough for cadets, to a point.  They can't be mandated to wear a non-issued uniform for standard unit activities, but they are also not granted a pass on supplemental equipment or uniform requirements for ES.

So, want to be a GTM?  BDU required.  First thing on the 101 is "proper uniform".

[capchiro]

Bob, true enough, but fortunately ES is not part of the mandated cadet program and would therefore be voluntary.  On the other hand, to progress satisfactorily in the cadet program, one must attend basic encampment and the powers that be always require 2 sets of BDU's in spite of the Reg's.  I wish we could put more pressure on the Air Force to help us out with this.  I think maybe some Wings have better personnel, policies, or relationships with the DRMO or whatever it is called where old uniforms go to die.   

[ddelaney103]

Bob, true enough, but fortunately ES is not part of the mandated cadet program and would therefore be voluntary.  On the other hand, to progress satisfactorily in the cadet program, one must attend basic encampment and the powers that be always require 2 sets of BDU's in spite of the Reg's. 

You also have to pay to go to encampment.  Sorry, but the CP isn't a free ride.

[Dragoon]

I kind of wish we'd change the mandatory uniform to BDUs.  Cadets can do the vast majority of the program in those.  Encampments can certainly be done in BDUs, as can squadron meetings.

Blues are very nice, but not anywhere near as needed.  In todays world, there are few times you can't get away with BDUs.

[capchiro]

That still doesn't make the price of oranges different.  We were discussing the fact that cadets can't be mandated to wear anything other than the basic blue uniform to participate in the cadet program unless the uniform is supplied by the squadron or the wear of it is voluntary.  To progress, a cadet must go to basic encampment.  Encampment commanders require BDU's and this is a violation of the Reg's.  This is a fact, not an opinion.  The Reg's either should be changed or enforced.  Considering that we have 20,000 cadets total, I think the Air Force could supply us with old BDU's especially as they have made so many changes in theirs.  Why should my cadets have to go to the Army-Navy Store and buy used BDU's that should have been given to them instead of being sold for next to nothing to the Army-Navy Supply store?  There is a break down in supply and need somewhere and I think we could/should use the Reg's to assist us in putting pressure on the Air Force to help us out.  I am not arguing that there are not any expenses to be a cadet, I am only arguing that we as commanders are in violation of the Reg's if we require the wear of BDU's for participation in the Cadet program.

[capchiro]

On the other hand, in the ancient times, when we wore Khaki's as cadets, we didn't have BDU's or fatigues  We wore Khaki's all the time and took gym shorts and T-shirts to encampment and that was it.  Since ES is not an official part of the cadet program, a good argument could be made that the Basic Blue uniform could be worn all of the time and our little Rambo's could learn to conduct themselves as Officers and Gentlemen/Ladies during the meetings.  Just a thought of course as all cadets are perfectly behaved at all times..

[Dragoon]

That still doesn't make the price of oranges different.  We were discussing the fact that cadets can't be mandated to wear anything other than the basic blue uniform to participate in the cadet program unless the uniform is supplied by the squadron or the wear of it is voluntary.  To progress, a cadet must go to basic encampment.  Encampment commanders require BDU's and this is a violation of the Reg's.  This is a fact, not an opinion.  The Reg's either should be changed or enforced.  Considering that we have 20,000 cadets total, I think the Air Force could supply us with old BDU's especially as they have made so many changes in theirs.  Why should my cadets have to go to the Army-Navy Store and buy used BDU's that should have been given to them instead of being sold for next to nothing to the Army-Navy Supply store?  There is a break down in supply and need somewhere and I think we could/should use the Reg's to assist us in putting pressure on the Air Force to help us out.  I am not arguing that there are not any expenses to be a cadet, I am only arguing that we as commanders are in violation of the Reg's if we require the wear of BDU's for participation in the Cadet program.

First, if the required uniform was BDUs, then the cadet uniform program would give the vast majority of cadets a set of free BDUs instead of free blues, so that would help.

Around here we DO get old BDUs from USAF and the Guard.

But you are right we are in violation of the regs if we require BDUS for the cadets.  I think the current dodge is "we let you participate in the program, but you will not be able to attend all the activities (like encampment) if you don't buy BDUs."

Not a great answer, but my guess is that is the mindset.

[Dragoon]

On the other hand, in the ancient times, when we wore Khaki's as cadets, we didn't have BDU's or fatigues  We wore Khaki's all the time and took gym shorts and T-shirts to encampment and that was it.  Since ES is not an official part of the cadet program, a good argument could be made that the Basic Blue uniform could be worn all of the time and our little Rambo's could learn to conduct themselves as Officers and Gentlemen/Ladies during the meetings.  Just a thought of course as all cadets are perfectly behaved at all times..

I love Khakis.

But the Khakis were a bit more durable than our blues (as evidenced by the fact that they were a battle uniform in the early 40s).  Today's "service dress" is definitely office and parade attire. Note that today's real airmen wear BDUS to work pretty much all the time.   Anything involving even a little sweat or the potential of grime would be better in BDUs. 

[1LtNurseOfficer]

Actually, she wouldn't be a health service officer, she would be a nurse officer.  And as interesting as it has always been, the only mandatory uniform for cadets is the minimum basic uniform, blue shirt, blue pants, etc., and all other uniforms are optional, unless provided by the squadron or if the wear is voluntary.  In other words, unless the squadron provides the cadet with BDU's, they can not be required to wear them.  I have always found this to be intersting and of great debate value as some squadrons apparently have access to great stores of BDU's and others don't. Oh, and by the way, Roxan, if you will move from Kansas to Georgia and be in my squadron, I will buy you a uniform..

Thanks for the offer.....   

But, let me clarify.... I threw that thought out as a theoritical possibility.  I, personally, have my uniforms and the financial ability to participate (and I'm up to my elbows!).  I was just thinking about 'those less fortunate' who are great youth leaders and mentors.  Talk about a huge dis.........

[RiverAux]

Uh, I'd like to see a CAP regulation quote where it says that cadets can't be required to wear anything but the blues.  Yes, it is the free uniform that we provide them, but I'm not aware of anything that says that other uniforms can't be required for other activities.  I'm not closely hooked into the cadet program, so could be wrong, but I'd like to see it in print. 

[Hawk200]

Uh, I'd like to see a CAP regulation quote where it says that cadets can't be required to wear anything but the blues.  Yes, it is the free uniform that we provide them, but I'm not aware of anything that says that other uniforms can't be required for other activities.  I'm not closely hooked into the cadet program, so could be wrong, but I'd like to see it in print. 

CAPM 39-1, para 1-5, "Uniform combinations", Line 4: "The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below."

Para 1-5 a., "Minimum Basic Service Uniform"  : "Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem."

And then:

Para 1-5, Lines 10 through 12: "Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet."

Basically, you can't require it if it's not the minimum basic uniform, you don't issue, or they choose not to purchase themselves.

[RiverAux]

Thanks.  Seems to me that this needs to be changed since BDUs are absolutely necessary for ground SAR and is primarily a cadet activity anyway.   

[MIKE]

... But ES is not a requirement of the Cadet Program.

[RiverAux]

So??  According to the cited regulation you couldn't require a cadet who is participating in the ES program to wear BDUs UNLESS you interpret the regulation as saying that if the cadet has volunteered to particiapte in the ES program then their purchase of the BDUs voluntary, which would be ok according to the regulation.

Basically, that clause needs some clarification.

[Hawk200]

So??  According to the cited regulation you couldn't require a cadet who is participating in the ES program to wear BDUs UNLESS you interpret the regulation as saying that if the cadet has volunteered to particiapte in the ES program then their purchase of the BDUs voluntary, which would be ok according to the regulation.

Basically, that clause needs some clarification.

Your reasoning is backwards. The appropriate uniform is a necessity of the function, not vice versa. If a cadet shows up in blues for a ground team sortie, I'm fairly certain that he/she won't be going. He can sign off on MSA or something, but a blue uniform is inappropriate for the field.

And the uniform manual doesn't give the option of roundabout reasoning to justify the requirement. A cadet is required to have the minimum basic uniform. The minimum basic uniform is short sleeve blues, not short sleeve blues unless....Uniforms appropriate to other events goes a long way to participating in those events. Any unit commander I know (and myself being a former commander) would not take very kindly to a cadet saying they wanted to do ground team, but they wouldn't buy a utility uniform of some kind. It would be far different if they expressed interest but couldn't afford it. Any member is not entitled to do anything they want, and then impose their own limitations.

I know that in the Air Force if I showed up in blues in the morning, I better have a board or something, or I would be told to go and change. If I didn't, Hades would be sending me a bill. When I spent a year in customer service, even as a maintenance troop, I wore blues. It was appropriate uniform. Or more simply put, I used the right tool for the right job.

[RiverAux]

Hey, I'm on your side here.   Obviously whoever wrote the uniform manual lacked commonsense or else they wouldn't have put in such a dumb statement in the first place. 

[Hawk200]

Hey, I'm on your side here.   Obviously whoever wrote the uniform manual lacked commonsense or else they wouldn't have put in such a dumb statement in the first place. 

I wasn't trying to be harsh, just point out the logic of it. I apologize for giving you a negative impression.

I don't know who wrote the uniform manual, and whether they were military or not doesn't matter. It leaves out a number of items that should be explained, or else leaves it to the reader to interpret it, which it should not be doing (and an explanation of "that's how we've been doing it, even though it's not in the manual anymore" doesn't cut it). A well written manual doesn't leave any leeway on whether something is authorized or not, or leave the reader wondering. Sometimes the obvious is ridiculous, the not so obvious is intelligent (which could be an accident for all I know.)

Of course, it has to be read in its entirety as well. There are some things buried in it that should be far more easily accessible for that reason.

[Tubacap]

Has anyone ever approached USAF about just adding USAF style CAP uniforms to the AFI?

[Hawk200]

Has anyone ever approached USAF about just adding USAF style CAP uniforms to the AFI?

It's an idea that's been bandied about, but never really been done. Right now, the AF uniform instruction is almost as bad. It wouldn't really solve anything. Not to mention, the AF probably doesn't really care to assume the responsibility.

[RiverAux]

Frankly, this is about the one pessimistic view I have about CAP -- I don't think our leaders would go for that since it would make it more difficult for them to change things on a whim as is done now. 

[Tubacap]

Maybe it's my naivity, but I don't think there is a power struggle on the uniform front in the realm of USAF style, quite frankly, what they say goes, so why not just let them say it.  On the flip side, we have a whole set of coporates to deal with.

Now... if someone would just come up with a uniform that used shorts, I'd be set this summer

[flyerthom]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

Ok, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not accecptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes accross town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

[jimmydeanno]

I think this line answers some questions:

"Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform." - It doesn't say the squadron will equip members with the basic uniform.  So it is definitely required that each member aquires "the basic uniform" on their own.

then it say's:

"However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements." (page 7 note 2) - What is considered an "unreasonable uniform requirement" or what is a "minimum or personal expense?"

[Dragoon]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

Ok, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not accecptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes accross town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

Dude, put the uniform in the car, let the commander that you're showing up late and need 5 extra minutes in the bathroom to change. Why is this such a big deal?  We've got a least 5 seniors doing this every week.

[Chaplaindon]

In light of what I have seen in my 2-decades+ in CAP (and what I expect to see in the future), I have trouble with the semantics of this (and similar) threads concerning official "clothing."

CAP is NOT uniform, especially (but certainly NOT uniquely) in its prescribed spectrum of clothing.

It hasn't been for --at least-- as long as I have been a member. Although I'd like to see it one day, I don't expect it ... frankly ... ever.

Uniformity in appearance would, IMHO, promote uniformity operationally and therein --almost certainly-- enhance professionalism (maybe even save a few more lives?). But, it won't happen.

Instead, we have dizzying (and costly $$$) combinations of "combinations" which range from the military, to the board room, to the golf course and everything in between.  It's spectrum is nearly "daylight to D.C."

Doubtless, more --not fewer-- "combinations" lurk in CAP's future.

As a result, any discussion of uniforms is disingenuous and misleading.

CAP has "MULTI-forms" or "POLY-forms".

Let's use the language as intended.

[Dragoon]

So very true.  Dressing alike seems to be the cardinal sin 'round these parts.  Many see no real value to uniformity.

[Pumbaa]

So is uniform Optional like the clothing optional bar at key west?

THat could become really ugly!

I know, I know.. Cadet Protection..

[IceNine]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

OK, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not acceptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes across town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

NICE TRY!!!  Once again go ahead with the excuses.  PUT THEM IN YOUR CAR!!!!  CHANGE WHEN YOU GET THERE!!!  Not sure what is hard about that.  OK so you don't drive to work you ride the subway.  Take a backpack and throw a set of boots and a utility uniform (jumpsuit) in it.

Quality people are voting with their feet not because they are being asked to follow standards, but because they are not feeling welcome or useful.  There is no misconception by anyone walking in the door that we have a uniform.  If you are a VOLUNTEER Firefighter you are not forgiven if you don't wear turnout gear.  If you are a volunteer EMT the cop is not going to Forgive you if you are speeding and you don't turn on your light.  Equally so you are not Forgiven if you don't wear a uniform to VOLUNTEER at CAP.  Its standard practice.

Duc, Sequere vel Abi Lead, Follow, Or get out of the way.  OR   Be the standard for uniform wear, follow the standard for uniform wear, or be left behind when you are not allowed to participate

[flyerthom]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

OK, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not acceptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes across town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

NICE TRY!!!  Once again go ahead with the excuses.  PUT THEM IN YOUR CAR!!!!  CHANGE WHEN YOU GET THERE!!!  Not sure what is hard about that.  OK so you don't drive to work you ride the subway.  Take a backpack and throw a set of boots and a utility uniform (jumpsuit) in it.

Quality people are voting with their feet not because they are being asked to follow standards, but because they are not feeling welcome or useful.  There is no misconception by anyone walking in the door that we have a uniform.  If you are a VOLUNTEER Firefighter you are not forgiven if you don't wear turnout gear.  If you are a volunteer EMT the cop is not going to Forgive you if you are speeding and you don't turn on your light.  Equally so you are not Forgiven if you don't wear a uniform to VOLUNTEER at CAP.  Its standard practice.

Duc, Sequere vel Abi Lead, Follow, Or get out of the way.  OR   Be the standard for uniform wear, follow the standard for uniform wear, or be left behind when you are not allowed to participate

No, people are leaving because other people need the fulfill their need to control people through petty things, like tossing them out of meetings because they had the audacity to show up real instead of pretty. After 12 hours in a busy ER/trauma center, doing prolonged CPR, dealing with tragedy then rushing to get to a meeting  late then having some petty tyrant giving me grief I'd just say see ya, and walk. Fortunately I have a commander who values what I can do and give, not what's on my back. When I'm off I go in uniform, when I work he's glad I made the effort to be there. If you're in CAP just so you can "order" people around you need a serious mirror check.  And as for leading, I am. I'm showing that the misson comes first, the show and strut comes second.

[shorning]

If you're in CAP just so you can "order" people around you need a serious mirror check.

[Eclipse]

No, people are leaving because other people need the fulfill their need to control people through petty things, like tossing them out of meetings because they had the audacity to show up real instead of pretty. After 12 hours in a busy ER/trauma center, doing prolonged CPR, dealing with tragedy then rushing to get to a meeting  late then having some petty tyrant giving me grief I'd just say see ya, and walk. Fortunately I have a commander who values what I can do and give, not what's on my back. When I'm off I go in uniform, when I work he's glad I made the effort to be there. If you're in CAP just so you can "order" people around you need a serious mirror check.  And as for leading, I am. I'm showing that the misson comes first, the show and strut comes second.

What you are showing is a flagrant disregard for an an organization you VOLUNTARILY agreed to participate in.

Your day job has absolutely no relevance to this issue.  Stop trying to play the martyr card about how dramatic your profession is.

Whether you spent the day arm deep in someone's chest, hip deep in a sewer, or knee deep in TPS reports is irrelevant.   

The average 8-year old little leaguer is sent home if they show up out of uniform, yet we can't seem to get some adults to be bothered to put on a golf shirt.

[MajorChuck]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

Ok, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not accecptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes accross town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

I work 0600-1800 on My job. My Unit Meeting starts at 1900,I work 40 minutes from the Unit. My Members know I'm going to be late.(thats what Unit Vice Commanders are for )
when I arrive,its freshly showered and in uniform,usually golf shirt/grey pants.If I didnt, Id arrive in Smelly Civies and that does'nt set a good example to My members or any visitors who may be interested in Joining.

IMHO if wearing a basic CAP uniform is cause for any member thinking of resigning. then they need to  redetermin if CAP is the right way to invest their time and skills.

[MajorChuck]

After posting, I went thru the 39-1. the Mandatory wearing of a uniform to normal activity's isn't  clear.. so I went to CAP knowledge base .......






Requirements for senior members to wear a uniform

  Question
  Do I have to wear a CAP uniform to be a senior member?

  Answer
  Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used CAP flight activity), but not necessarily the AF style service uniform. Members equip themselves with the basic uniform, either the Minimum Basic Service Uniform or the CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. See Paragraph 1-5, and Tables 1-1 and 1-2 of CAPM 39-1 CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM MANUAL . Note: For the latest edition of CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual see Answer 1133: CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual

1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its wear.

Table 1-1. Wearing the Uniform
When participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used CAP flight activity).

Table 1-2. Uniforms
Uniform Combinations
Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. See note 1.


So, as a Unit Commander, I will highly encourage My Officers to wear a Uniform,but I will not bar them from attending if they Don't. Except for whats prescribed above.

[RiverAux]

looks like the knowledgebase doesn't quite match up with 39-1.

[IceNine]

I'm Shocked...knowledgebase doesn't jive?