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jfkspotting
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« on: July 13, 2017, 04:50:54 PM »

One packing list sent by my flight sergeant says Sunglasses are only for staff and not for cadets, list named "North Dakota Wing 2013"

The one they mailed home says sunglasses are optional

Which one do I trust
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 04:51:57 PM »

Don't take sunglasses unless you have a documented medical issue that requires them.
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NIN
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 04:52:20 PM »

Don't take sunglasses unless you have a documented medical issue that requires them.

So, squint?

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2017, 04:57:30 PM »

The one mailed home. But please don't bring an expensive pair, as they could get lost, and keep them within CAPM 39-1, Chapter 6:

Quote
6.3.1.2.  Eyeglasses/Sunglasses/Contact Lenses.
Will be worn in the manner for which they are made. Eyeglasses and sunglasses will not be worn around the neck or on top/back of head or exposed hanging on the uniform.

6.3.1.2.1.  Eyeglasses and sunglasses may have conservative ornamentation on nonprescription sunglasses or eyeglasses, frames may be black or brown material or gold or silver wire. Brand name glasses may be worn with small logo on frames or lenses. Logo must be same color as frames or lenses. Conservative wrap-around sunglasses may be worn. Conservative, clear, slightly tinted or photosensitive lenses are authorized.

6.3.1.2.2.  Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

You also might not be able to wear them all of the time but the determination will be done there. And yes, there will be a contraband search upon arrival.
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
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Ravenwings
Recruit

Posts: 14

« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 05:09:02 PM »

At the risk of being on the receiving end of 39-1 dog pile, I really think we need to look at this regulation. Ultra violet rays cause cataracts and other vision issues,  fact. Almost all doctors recommend the use of sunglasses,  fact. Cadets and parent sign and agree that if Cadet Precious Snowflake loses his/her shade, the Encampment and CAP as a whole are not responsible.  Also if an M.D. has written an order or advice that a Cadet needs sunglasses CAP, and the POC,  should not go against medical advice.  8)
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 05:13:36 PM »



You can't go wrong with AOs.
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jfkspotting
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 05:55:11 PM »

The one mailed home. But please don't bring an expensive pair, as they could get lost, and keep them within CAPM 39-1, Chapter 6:

Quote
6.3.1.2.  Eyeglasses/Sunglasses/Contact Lenses.
Will be worn in the manner for which they are made. Eyeglasses and sunglasses will not be worn around the neck or on top/back of head or exposed hanging on the uniform.

6.3.1.2.1.  Eyeglasses and sunglasses may have conservative ornamentation on nonprescription sunglasses or eyeglasses, frames may be black or brown material or gold or silver wire. Brand name glasses may be worn with small logo on frames or lenses. Logo must be same color as frames or lenses. Conservative wrap-around sunglasses may be worn. Conservative, clear, slightly tinted or photosensitive lenses are authorized.

6.3.1.2.2.  Faddish styles and mirrored lenses are prohibited. Sunglasses (to include darkened photosensitive lenses) are not authorized in formation. Exception: Sunglasses are not authorized in formation, unless for medical reasons, e.g., PRK/Lasik surgery.

You also might not be able to wear them all of the time but the determination will be done there. And yes, there will be a contraband search upon arrival.


Thanks Ozzy for clearing this up. Are you the same Ozzy that is in the guidebook with a cheesy smile?

Also, How many rides are we taking? Just Cessnas and the luck of the drawer for the heavies?

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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2017, 06:00:19 PM »

Nope. And 182s for those without O-flight, C-130, Maybe more.
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
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NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, (17)
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2017, 08:45:59 PM »



You can't go wrong with AOs.

Actually yes you can. They are NOT cheap. And when Cadet Bagadonuts loses their pair, Mom and Dad will NOT be happy. >:D
Ask me how I know this...
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:12:41 PM by PHall » Logged
Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2017, 09:01:42 PM »

Heh - yeah, I paid $30 ish for mine 1MM years ago on base, looks like they go about $50ish now,
though you can get knocks offs on eBay for under $10. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Classic-Retro-Mens-Fashion-Metal-PILOTs-Vintage-Designer-Silver-Sunglasses-h/252596066267


My AOs are still in pretty good shape, but the !@#$% polarization is in the wrong orientation and just gives me a black display on everything,
even my olde-school Navihawk.

The ones that drive me nuts are the Elvis-looking Oakleys.

Pro-Tip:  When assembling your flight / unit / encampment - check the direction of the sun and
don't face them INTO it!  That negates 99% of the medical argument.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:08:30 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2017, 10:22:57 PM »

Don't take sunglasses unless you have a documented medical issue that requires them.

So, squint?

Sure. I hear enough time wasted on debating if everyone needs to roll their sleeves or not when they should be training. I can only imagine the endless debates on this.

There's only so many hours from Saturday to Saturday.
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jfkspotting
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2017, 10:45:20 AM »

Don't take sunglasses unless you have a documented medical issue that requires them.

but that's not 39-1. Is it up to the wing?
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2017, 11:29:08 AM »

The one from the activity is the one you go by, your flight sergeant may be passing outdated information. Check their website to see if the most up to date one is available.

Honestly, it's just one more thing to keep up with and get heartbroken over if they're lost or broken.

Just take the easiest option and go train. This isn't that difficult.  Quibbling over something like this isn't the battle a basic student needs to be fighting.

EDIT: also, it's up to the encampment commander.
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 64
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2017, 12:55:53 PM »

Just look at the best/worst case scenario for bringing a ten dollar pair of sunglasses.

If you do bring them, best case is you're able to see better in the sun, protected from cataracts, etc. Worst is that you lose them and are out ten bucks. If you're not supposed to have them, you'll lose them in inprocessing and get them back at the end of the week.

If you don't bring them, best case is you're without sunglasses the whole week. Worst is... you're without sunglasses the whole week.

I'm not you, but I'd take the chance on bringing a pair.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
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NIN
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2017, 01:02:45 PM »

Sure. I hear enough time wasted on debating if everyone needs to roll their sleeves or not when they should be training. I can only imagine the endless debates on this.

There's only so many hours from Saturday to Saturday.

That said same argument could be made for saying "Why waste time making our bunks or doing inspections? We could be training!"

"Man, this marching everywhere is a pain. It sure detracts from our training..."

People having sunglasses on while in the sun is not a novel concept.

"Hey, there, cadet, we don't have time for you to put on sunscreen.. We have training to do! So what? A little skin cancer just tells everybody how hardcore you are. And I'm sorry you're a ginger who crisps up in 5 minutes, but thems the breaks.."
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2017, 03:24:41 PM »

Sure. I hear enough time wasted on debating if everyone needs to roll their sleeves or not when they should be training. I can only imagine the endless debates on this.

There's only so many hours from Saturday to Saturday.

That said same argument could be made for saying "Why waste time making our bunks or doing inspections? We could be training!"

"Man, this marching everywhere is a pain. It sure detracts from our training..."

People having sunglasses on while in the sun is not a novel concept.

"Hey, there, cadet, we don't have time for you to put on sunscreen.. We have training to do! So what? A little skin cancer just tells everybody how hardcore you are. And I'm sorry you're a ginger who crisps up in 5 minutes, but thems the breaks.."

Bunks, inspections, and marching are the training for the encampment environment.  A large part of it anyway.

The bill of a cap provides eye protection.  Sunscreen provides protection to skin otherwise unprotected by the uniform.  I fail to see the connection in your analogy. 

I'm the most anti-uniform Nazi around, and on the odd occasion I can't avoid standing in formation outdoors, even I take my sunglasses off.  Cadets outdoors at encampment (students anyway) are almost always in a formation.  The times they aren't amount to such a small amount that there's no use even telling them it's ok to have them.  Streamline your packing list and leave them off.
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Ravenwings
Recruit

Posts: 14

« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2017, 03:43:59 PM »

Jester, with great respect, are you a board certified opthamologist, or at the very least an optometrist? If not, may I respectfully advise you that you are in no position to make a medical decision.  The bill of a cap provides no to little protection to a person's eyes. The same this goes for standing in the shade. If you deny a medical opinion/ order written busy an M.D.,  you could be considered practicing medicine with out a license. Sunglasses are, and should be considered,  standard PPE. 

Every ophthalmologist,  optometrist,  and Gerald practitioner, that I have spoken to, have advocated the use of sunglasses ANYTIME YOU ARE OUT OF DOORS. But I am sure that a jester knows best.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2017, 03:55:27 PM »

aaaaand the bubblewrapping of America continues. 

If they're such a serious requirement, apparently on the level of oxygen, then I assume that you are currently pursuing a requirement for all wings to require sunglasses and mandate their use at encampment, backed up with all this evidence of the Gerald practitioners you know and whatnot?  After all, a ravenwings obviously knows best.

And where in the everloving hades did you ever see me advocating denying a medical order?  Good grief.  I even said don't bring them unless you have a documented medical issue that requires them. 

Reading is fundamental.  Spend less time on the sunglasses train and more on the reading glasses one.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2017, 03:56:14 PM »

Jester, with great respect, are you a board certified opthamologist, or at the very least an optometrist? If not, may I respectfully advise you that you are in no position to make a medical decision.  The bill of a cap provides no to little protection to a person's eyes. The same this goes for standing in the shade. If you deny a medical opinion/ order written busy an M.D.,  you could be considered practicing medicine with out a license. Sunglasses are, and should be considered,  standard PPE. 

Every ophthalmologist,  optometrist,  and Gerald practitioner, that I have spoken to, have advocated the use of sunglasses ANYTIME YOU ARE OUT OF DOORS. But I am sure that a jester knows best.

I don't see anywhere that Jester indicated he would deny a medical order, but I agree, we should all listen to Gerald...

With that said, the cumulative time a CAP member of any category spends outside in the sun during CAP activities (LIFETIME TOTAL), is
such a small percentage of their life as to be completely irrelevant to any medical argument*.

*The Goobers who are going to stare directly into the upcoming apocalyptic night-day notwithstanding.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2017, 04:07:16 PM »

This guy, among others, disagrees with Gerald:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/09/16/sunglasses-myths.aspx

"On an average sunny day, however, wearing sunglasses is the last thing you want to do for your vision health, because you will be blocking potentially beneficial wavelengths of light from reaching your eyes. There are actually more than 1,500 wavelengths of light that you need to nourish your eyes. So I avoid using sunglasses, because I believe your eyes need to receive the full spectrum of light to function optimally, and sunglasses block out some essential waves of the light spectrum.

Instead of sunglasses, I wear a lightweight cap with a visor like this one to protect my face and eyes from direct sunlight. This is typically all that is needed and will still allow your eyes to benefit from the full spectrum of light. My team liked the cap that I wear so much that we even offer it for sale in our store."


"Generally speaking, I think you can effectively use your body as a guide to tell you when sunglasses are truly necessary. If the light is uncomfortable to your eyes or causes you to squint, put on a hat, get in the shade or use sunglasses – temporarily. But I believe it's best to avoid wearing sunglasses automatically during virtually all daylight hours."

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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2017, 04:09:45 PM »

Poor Gerald, ahead of his time and surrounded by naysayers.
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KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2017, 04:17:38 PM »

f you deny a medical opinion/ order written busy an M.D.,  you could be considered practicing medicine with out a license.

Could is the operative word there. No prosecutor in his right mind is going to waste time prosecuting some random schmuck for that anymore than you're likely to get cited for practicing law without a license.  It is at most a matter for civil litigation and even then...it's far from a slam dunk thing (give me a ten page report on intersection of the legal concept of 'a preponderance of the evidence" and the difficulty of scientifically assigning a condition associated with years of ultraviolet exposure to a single weekend or incident. Start with the Daubert standard and work back from there.

It is stupid to not follow a medical order.  Trust me, i loved medical restrictions when I was in the military.  But please try to keep the hyperbole to a minimum or, at least, try to make it hilarious.
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KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2017, 04:20:12 PM »

This guy, among others, disagrees with Gerald:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/09/16/sunglasses-myths.aspx

"On an average sunny day, however, wearing sunglasses is the last thing you want to do for your vision health, because you will be blocking potentially beneficial wavelengths of light from reaching your eyes. There are actually more than 1,500 wavelengths of light that you need to nourish your eyes. So I avoid using sunglasses, because I believe your eyes need to receive the full spectrum of light to function optimally, and sunglasses block out some essential waves of the light spectrum.

Instead of sunglasses, I wear a lightweight cap with a visor like this one to protect my face and eyes from direct sunlight. This is typically all that is needed and will still allow your eyes to benefit from the full spectrum of light. My team liked the cap that I wear so much that we even offer it for sale in our store."


"Generally speaking, I think you can effectively use your body as a guide to tell you when sunglasses are truly necessary. If the light is uncomfortable to your eyes or causes you to squint, put on a hat, get in the shade or use sunglasses – temporarily. But I believe it's best to avoid wearing sunglasses automatically during virtually all daylight hours."


Just a friendly heads up: Mercola is also regarded as a quack by almost everyone with a scientific or medical education.  He's the last person- despite technically being a physician- you should be listening too.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2017, 04:55:20 PM »

Just a friendly heads up: Mercola is also regarded as a quack by almost everyone with a scientific or medical education.  He's the last person- despite technically being a physician- you should be listening too.

Maybe, maybe not - Googling around provides plenty more places with the same or similar information.

More an example that the internet will provide any opinion you need, and that generally speaking, for the majority
of people, blanket statements like "always" or "every" in regards to medical issues.

Since man walked with the dinosaurs 1,600 years ago there were no sunglasses, yet put an otherwise healthy
cadet outside for an hour a day without them and their eyeballs will literally explode.
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PA Guy
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Posts: 709

« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2017, 05:22:40 PM »

Didn't we have a long thread about this very same topic about 2 yrs ago? It went nowhere and this one is following the same path. Can we close this one?
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 64
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2017, 05:26:20 PM »

Please.

We really shouldn't dive into a medical discussion about eye health without Gerald here.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
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KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2017, 05:27:31 PM »

Quote
Maybe, maybe not

I'm just saying that quoting Mercola is just this side of going "Well, after I edited it, Wikipedia says X" for helping the credibility of one's argument.  It was meant more as a "heads up" about Mercola being a bottom feeding snake oil salesman than anything else.  He's a con artist.  Nothing more, nothing less.

By the way, "finding similar statements" isn't much better.  For the actual consensus:
www.aao.org/eye-health/glasses-contacts/sunglasses-3
www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/sun
https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/summer-sun-eye-safety
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KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2017, 05:28:15 PM »

Quote
Since man walked with the dinosaurs 1,600 years ago there were no sunglasses,

You're joking right?  LOL
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Eclipse
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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2017, 05:32:59 PM »

Quote
Maybe, maybe not

I'm just saying that quoting Mercola is just this side of going "Well, after I edited it, Wikipedia says X" for helping the credibility of one's argument.  It was meant more as a "heads up" about Mercola being a bottom feeding snake oil salesman than anything else.  He's a con artist.  Nothing more, nothing less.

By the way, "finding similar statements" isn't much better.  For the actual consensus:
www.aao.org/eye-health/glasses-contacts/sunglasses-3
www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/sun
https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/summer-sun-eye-safety

Meh...just shills for Luxottica.
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KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2017, 05:46:34 PM »

Quote
Maybe, maybe not

I'm just saying that quoting Mercola is just this side of going "Well, after I edited it, Wikipedia says X" for helping the credibility of one's argument.  It was meant more as a "heads up" about Mercola being a bottom feeding snake oil salesman than anything else.  He's a con artist.  Nothing more, nothing less.

By the way, "finding similar statements" isn't much better.  For the actual consensus:
www.aao.org/eye-health/glasses-contacts/sunglasses-3
www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/sun
https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/summer-sun-eye-safety

Meh...just shills for Luxottica.
*raises glass* Well played. 
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 879

« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2017, 06:14:32 PM »

I got lost in the world of arguing over the "necessity of sunglasses," which doesn't exist (and as a cadet in formation most of the time, they won't be worn). So forgive me if I've missed someone else making this point---

Why is your Flight Sergeant sending you an Encampment packing list from North Dakota when you're in New York? Further more, why are you being sent a packing list from 2013?

For someone who's 15-years-old, you really need to step up into the world of personal responsibility here. Start asking these questions at your unit/within your chain of command/within your Wing. Most of these questions can/should be answered by persons who are more aware and knowledgeable about the state of affairs in NYWG. You're turning into one of those "but so-and-so told me" cadets who heard something completely false by someone who was in no position to be asked/give answers on the subject matter you are questioning.

Read the manual. Ask your superiors. Email the proper persons-in-charge/points of contact of these activities. Their answers will be the more accurate.
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CAPLTC
Member

Posts: 63
Unit: MER

« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2017, 11:30:07 PM »

Every ophthalmologist,  optometrist,  and Gerald practitioner, that I have spoken to, have advocated the use of sunglasses ANYTIME YOU ARE OUT OF DOORS. But I am sure that a jester knows best.

Agree.
Eye protection should be part of the uniform.
It's common sense.
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Sapper168
Seasoned Member

Posts: 328
Unit: GLR-IL-036

« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2017, 09:27:27 AM »

Jester, with great respect, are you a board certified opthamologist, or at the very least an optometrist? If not, may I respectfully advise you that you are in no position to make a medical decision.  The bill of a cap provides no to little protection to a person's eyes. The same this goes for standing in the shade. If you deny a medical opinion/ order written busy an M.D.,  you could be considered practicing medicine with out a license. Sunglasses are, and should be considered,  standard PPE. 

Every ophthalmologist,  optometrist,  and Gerald practitioner, that I have spoken to, have advocated the use of sunglasses ANYTIME YOU ARE OUT OF DOORS. But I am sure that a jester knows best.

I have been part of a summer encampment for the last 7 years and have literally never had a cadet with a sunglasses prescription.  One had darkening lenses in his regular prescription glasses but no aviator or tacti-kewl shades.   Sounds like something for the people with nothing else to do to have something to argue about.
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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2017, 10:23:16 AM »

Why is your Flight Sergeant sending you an Encampment packing list from North Dakota when you're in New York? Further more, why are you being sent a packing list from 2013?

Probably the same thing most cadets try to do when there is a lack for information from the top, they look for it. Most likely it was one of the first ones that came up during a google search and he took a glance at it and said "Close enough to get them started packing". Then again, I don't believe North Dakota has had a stand-alone encampment in years, it is usually called the Joint Dakota Encampment so I wonder where the North Dakota Wing 2013 packing list came from...

Anyways, all cadets should have received the official packing list by now and we are 3 days out for staff, 6 for inflights students
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
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NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, (17)
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
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