2017 Conference Registration

Started by MSG Mac, April 21, 2017, 06:16:28 AM

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Eclipse

This discussion has to be viewed in the context of an organizaiton which, rather then trying to reduce the
cost of encampments across the board (through, I dunno, leveraging TotalF rce relationships?) is suggesting
encampments charge more then actual cost to provide gift cards, and fees and travel expenses for speakers.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

#41
Quote from: SarDragon on April 28, 2017, 03:16:10 AM
The fundamental purpose of the event is company business. The people required to attend get the free ride. Everyone else pays their own way. Both companies I worked for after leaving the Navy, and both of the companies my wife worked for had similar policies.

Were both of those companies not-for-profits with all-volunteer staff?

You literally cannot compare this to a corporate situation in regards to the optics, the goals, or the the financials.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

"If you don't like it / them, don't go..."

Fair enough, except these parties take resources from the organization, which all but shuts down during the time before, during, and after.

Add in the myriad wing and region conferences, and you have hundreds of thousands of dollars, and hundreds if nor thousands
of man hours,  >wasted< on banquets and "meetings", yet the organizaiton is struggling with mission, and purpose, and even viability.

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

Of the four, one was a non-profit (different from a not-for-profit), with a paid staff making about 75% of prevailing private enterprise wages/salaries. The others were private enterprise companies. I don't see how that makes any difference. The corporation has operating expenses, and a budget. Part of those expenses is the annual board meeting, just as it is for most corporations.

My other volunteer organization has similar issues, similar discussions and, thinking about it, a similar number of members. We pay dues, there's a headquarters with a paid staff, and we get a limited amount of funding from sponsors (our national sponsor is USAF). Bucks in, bucks out, all hopefully within the budget.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Ned

Quote from: Eclipse on April 28, 2017, 03:34:41 AM
"If you don't like it / them, don't go..."

Fair enough, except these parties take resources from the organization, which all but shuts down during the time before, during, and after.

Add in the myriad wing and region conferences, and you have hundreds of thousands of dollars, and hundreds if nor thousands
of man hours,  >wasted< on banquets and "meetings", yet the organizaiton is struggling with mission, and purpose, and even viability.

Careful, Bob, your bias is showing.   8)

As I pointed out before, conferences -- including the national conference -- are "self funded" and do not take resources from the organization.

Perhaps more importantly, I can't think of many national-level organizations that do not have conferences and meetings.  I suppose there could be some out there somewhere, but they have got to be rare.  I work in government, and we certainly have multiple conferences, meetings, and trainings every year.  Heck, I am mandated to attend a certain number of training hours per year or I am subject to discipline.  The military certainly has no shortage of meetings, conferences, and training events.  Off the top of my head, the Red Cross, Scouts, and even my church has national-level meetings every year.  I suspect that most members of the respective organizations don't go, but obviously the overwhelming number of national organizations find value in meetings and conferences.

Kinda like CAP.

Eclipse

Private enterprise has to maintain an image of success, and compete for workers, so perks and
privileges are part of the game.

As someone who is in the bidniss of tradshoows and corporate meetings, I can tell you a lot
of them are just bandcamp for the sales guys and the whales under the pretext of a "board meeting",
cut off Las Vegas once or twice a year and your competitors start getting a lot of resumes.

But so be it, private companies can do whatever they want with their profits as long as the stake or share-holders
don't mind (or get to come, too).

That is absolutely not what CAP is about, and stuff like this is what gets charities in trouble,
either in real court, or more importantly in the court of public opinion, which includes the rank and file.

"That Others May Zoom"

Alaric

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:19:16 AM
Let me see how my cut and paste skills hold out.

Quote from: Alaric[A]re you implying that all National Region and Wing command staff are paying for their own hotel, registration and travel?
Of course not.  We have enough trouble finding qualified members to serve as region and wing commanders.  Imagine what would happen if they had to pay several thousand dollars a year out of their own pocket to attend mandatory meetings, commanders calls, and conferences.  Only rich folks need apply.  Average members, like you and me, could never aspire to serve as wing or region commanders.  Wing and region commanders receive a modest travel budget in order to perform their duties.  As it is, most wing and region commanders spend thousands of dollars a year for the "privilege" of command.  We need to lessen that burden to allow average members to serve; not increase it.

Quote from: AlaricThere is no reason to have conferences in fancy hotels.

Well, I suppose it comes down to what you mean by a "fancy hotel."  I don't think there are any Motel 6's that can accommodate a conference with roughly 1,000 folks.  Same for military bases. (Plus add access problems for non-members like vendors, stakeholders, relatives of members receiving awards, etc.)  Obviously it needs to be a large enough venue to accommodate the members who choose to attend.  And I don't know about your personal definitions, but $132 a night for our hotel in San Antonio doesn't sound like a particularly "fancy" hotel.  Again, feel free to volunteer to serve on one of the committees that plan and put on one of our any terrific wing, region, and national conferences and share your views about what constitutes a "fancy hotel."

Quote from: AlaricThere is no reason for a yearly boondoggle.
Strong statement of personal opinion noted.  Obviously, hundreds of members every year disagree with you and invest the time and treasure for the conference.  It appears to work for them.  If you don't want to go, you certainly don't have to.  Is there some reason that the 650-700 members that choose to participate each year should be deprived of their ability to attend?


Did I get everyone?

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Staff Guy

My cut and paste skills are not up to snuff so I'll answer below:

It is my belief that if the membership was not subsidizing the conferences for command then they would be a little more conscious of costs.  If you are going to run for a command position, you should plan for the outlay.  If NHQ wants to lessen the burden, embrace technology and require less face to face meetings

I have been on the planning committees for several wing and one region conference

I have no problem with how 650 - 700 people (<3% of the senior membership) want to spend their money.  I do have a problem if approximately 10 percent of those people (52 Wing Commanders, 8 Region Commanders, National Commander and Vice Commander = 62  Presuming Vice Commanders at Region and Wing level are also not subsidized) are spending the organization's money to go to the event.




Alaric

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 28, 2017, 03:34:41 AM
"If you don't like it / them, don't go..."

Fair enough, except these parties take resources from the organization, which all but shuts down during the time before, during, and after.

Add in the myriad wing and region conferences, and you have hundreds of thousands of dollars, and hundreds if nor thousands
of man hours,  >wasted< on banquets and "meetings", yet the organizaiton is struggling with mission, and purpose, and even viability.

Careful, Bob, your bias is showing.   8)

As I pointed out before, conferences -- including the national conference -- are "self funded" and do not take resources from the organization.


Kinda like CAP.

I'm confused, if CAP money is being used to pay for Wing/Region/National Command staff to go to the conferences, how is this not taking resources from the organization?  Obviously if the money wasn't being spent on this, it would be being spent on something else

Eclipse

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:51:13 AM
Careful, Bob, your bias is showing.   8)

It's rarely hidden

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:51:13 AM
As I pointed out before, conferences -- including the national conference -- are "self funded" and do not take resources from the organization.
The most important resources they sap are TIME and ATTENTION. Wings, Regions, and NHQ all but shut down before, during and after their
respective soirees.

But since you brought it up, again, you are saying that not a single dollar of member funds is spent on any conferences, ever? Nothing for travel?
No expense reimbursement?  Nothing? 

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 03:53:09 AM

It is my belief that if the membership was not subsidizing the conferences for command then they would be a little more conscious of costs. 
Wait, what?
Quote

If you are going to run for a command position, you should plan for the outlay.  If NHQ wants to lessen the burden, embrace technology and require less face to face meetings

So, you are OK with only rich people running the organization?  OK, position noted.  Personally, I prefer a broader, more diverse leadership.  But that's just me.

And BTW, as a member of the BoG, I can reassure you that we had plenty of teleconferences; just like the CSAG. 

Like any group with more than 50 members, Command Council meetings are somewhat more difficult to conduct via teleconference, but they do happen on occasion.  And they meet in person a couple of times a year.

But the leadership is extremely conscious about costs, and fully embraces electronic meetings whenever feasible.

Ned Lee




Alaric

#50
Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 04:02:13 AM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 03:53:09 AM

It is my belief that if the membership was not subsidizing the conferences for command then they would be a little more conscious of costs. 
Wait, what?
Quote

Let me rephrase, if conferences were not subsidized for the command staff I believe that the command staff would be a little more conscious of the costs

If you are going to run for a command position, you should plan for the outlay.  If NHQ wants to lessen the burden, embrace technology and require less face to face meetings

So, you are OK with only rich people running the organization?  OK, position noted.  Personally, I prefer a broader, more diverse leadership.  But that's just me.

And BTW, as a member of the BoG, I can reassure you that we had plenty of teleconferences; just like the CSAG. 

Like any group with more than 50 members, Command Council meetings are somewhat more difficult to conduct via teleconference, but they do happen on occasion.  And they meet in person a couple of times a year.

But the leadership is extremely conscious about costs, and fully embraces electronic meetings whenever feasible.

Ned Lee
I didn't say anything about only rich people leading the organization, I said that if you want to run for command, do your research and save your money. 


Once again if they used more technology less costs.  Or in lieu of having a conference, with all the additional costs (including having to have them at expensive hotels that can handle 700+ people) just have the Command Council meet in the summer as they do in the winter. 

A.Member

#51
Quote from: Ned
Quote from: A.MemberHow do you (National) make the assessment above? 
I dunno exactly, but I think each attendee is sent a link to a survey instrument.

Quote from: A.MemberWhat is the survey response rate from attendees?   How many of those are the same core that always attend or are required to attend?
There is certainly a certain level of folks like me that show up every year, please others who come somewhat less often.  I don't know what percentage of the attendees respond to the survey, but I am told it is comparable to most surveys and is statistically significant.
So, likely between 40 - 60% response rate?

Quote from: Ned
Quote from: A.MemberKeep in mind that even if 700 attend and all respond, that is .01% of the membership.
God knows I am certainly not a math guy, but I think your assertion is off by a factor of 100 or so.   The last time I looked, we had something like 57,000 members.  1% of that would be something like 570.  (Which is less than the % that voluntarily pay to attend the conference.) .01% of the members is something like 6 members. But I'm a lawyer.  If I was any good at math, I'd be something else.
Haha, well, clearly math isn't my strong suit either...never could move those decimals correctly.  Point is, that it's not necessarily a representative group but rather a more exclusive group, especially among repeat crowd. 

I have to imagine large population states, such as Texas, typically have 400 (possibly more) attendees at an average Wing conference.  If the host Wing and Region cancel their annual conferences when the National conference is held in their AOR, then it's safe to assume National is simply benefiting from those would be attendee.  That's fair enough but it perhaps somewhat artificially increases interest/attendance in National conference?

Quote from: NedDid I get everyone?
Seems you may've overlooked my question in re: NHQs goals, objectives, and metrics for conferences. 
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Eclipse

Here's an idea - remove National and Region conferences and only hold Wing conferences.

"Training" and "Meetings" which for some reason need to be held in a hotel conference room
can be done at those events in conjunction with them, which would expand there scope
and contact, while also eliminating bandcamp.

Members who feel the need to "network" can attend these wing conferences, which are always
open to anyone, anyway.

That makes the wings better, and eliminates as many as 8 or 9 expensive activities from the calendar.

Done.

"That Others May Zoom"

THRAWN

Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 10:02:01 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on April 27, 2017, 08:50:22 PM
Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:45:07 PM
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on April 27, 2017, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:42:08 PM
If we took a step back and did a cost/benefit analysis on National or Region conferences, it be pretty apparent the value just isn't there.


Unless it's in your backyard, and you can just drive in for the event, and sleep at home.
Even then.  What is really gained from them?  Consider how our "conferences" operate as opposed to actual professional conferences.  I'd never pay or take time from my real job to attend a National or Region conference.  Even Wing level conferences are generally of marginal value.

Then bring something to the table. What is it that you want to have done at a wing conference that isn't being done? Write something up, run it up the chain, and make it happen.
Ah, the old why don't you suggest/do something argument...  ::) 

A fundamental problem is what we (CAP) view a conference to be.  A conference is not and should not be a giant training session. Not even close.  I've never been to a professional conference where the outcome was a certification, etc.  That's not the purpose.

A conference should be an opportunity for us share ideas/discuss best practices, not just among ourselves but with every potential partner agency and customer.  Make ourselves and our capabilities known.  That's what conferences do. 

How does that viewpoint compare to the CAP conferences you've attended?!

The two goals are not mutually exclusive. I've been to a number of conferences that offered CE/certification programs. While it is not the sole purpose of the conference, it is one of them. Having conversations with industry, other youth orgs, state EMAs, airport authorities, STEM educators,etc is ideal. I've been to about 50 conferences, between wing and region, and with very few exceptions, this hs happened. If it's not happening in your wing, is it because the conference planners are stuck in the rubber chicken mode nd don't cre, or is it because the planners are unaware that this is something that membership wants. Some wings do a great job of defining what they view as a conference and putting that into action. Make yours one of them.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

EMT-83

Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

Alaric

Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

A.Member

#56
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?
Guess what?  I will....just like 56,000 or 99% of our members.  The "you don't like it, then stay at home" rebuttal is lame.

This may seem like a foreign concept but I want my organization focused on issues/events that bring value and growth as opposed to an exclusive event where members simply stand in a circle to pat themselves on the back - the dog and pony show; that's an award ceremony not a conference. 

The organization faces serious challenges.  Getting together to find solutions to those problems is a reasonable approach.  But that's not typically what happens at our "conferences". 
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

jeders

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

THRAWN

Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.

Same can be said for the staffers and planners of these events. They sometimes give the impression that it is the very first time they have heard the word "conference" let alone planned one...
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Alaric

Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.

What do you think makes up the budget from which their travel allowances come?, member dues that's where, so indeed the money is coming from the broader budget because if the travel allowances didn't exist that money would be allocated elsewhere