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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: For Safety Sake @ Work and CAP
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Author Topic: For Safety Sake @ Work and CAP  (Read 4972 times)
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 879

« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2017, 04:33:05 PM »

We had a safety meeting at work the other day and the Boss asked me what steps I would take if the shop was on fire.  Obviously "[darn] big ones" was not the answer he wanted....

Our Director of Safety always brings up a great philosophy: You put 5 people into a meeting, and there are 7 different opinions. Everyone walks in with either an opinion or no opinion. As the discussion progresses, some people change their opinion; some people become more confused, probably angry.

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capsafety
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,257

« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2017, 06:04:48 PM »

We had a safety meeting at work the other day and the Boss asked me what steps I would take if the shop was on fire.  Obviously "[darn] big ones" was not the answer he wanted....

Our Director of Safety always brings up a great philosophy: You put 5 people into a meeting, and there are 7 different opinions. Everyone walks in with either an opinion or no opinion. As the discussion progresses, some people change their opinion; some people become more confused, probably angry.

Happens quite a bit. I have fellow managers that will agree with me during one discussion and then when we approach it again have a different opinion.

But it generally works out in the end.

Thanks for the input folks.

The next one is coming soon.
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James L. Shaw Jr.
Lt Col., CAP
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,520

« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2017, 06:06:04 PM »

Who brings the extra two opinions?

 >:D

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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,058
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2017, 07:54:31 PM »

Usually, the pedants.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 879

« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2017, 08:05:00 PM »

Who brings the extra two opinions?

 >:D

Usually, the pedants.

This.

Or the person who is completely confused....or the person who votes twice just so they can get out of the meeting...

A major point with any safety program, though, is that communication is key and dissension is welcome. It doesn't mean that person will leave getting their way, and there comes a point when they need to realize they're outnumbered, but you don't want a safety culture where the head of your safety program makes all of the decisions for everyone. You need to have those other opinions so you don't get narrow-minded and locked in to your own ideas.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2017, 04:41:25 PM »

http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pointing-and-calling-japan-trains

An interesting article about the Safety culture in Japan on their rail system.



"Known in Japanese as shisa kanko, pointing-and-calling works on the principle of associating one’s tasks with physical movements and vocalizations to prevent errors by “raising the consciousness levels of workers”—according to the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health, Japan. Rather than rely on a worker’s eyes or habit alone, each step in a given task is reinforced physically and audibly to ensure the step is both complete and accurate."

This requires at least some modicum of positive attention to complete, moving the act from "habit" to " action".
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

capsafety
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,257

« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2017, 08:53:18 AM »

http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pointing-and-calling-japan-trains

An interesting article about the Safety culture in Japan on their rail system.



"Known in Japanese as shisa kanko, pointing-and-calling works on the principle of associating one’s tasks with physical movements and vocalizations to prevent errors by “raising the consciousness levels of workers”—according to the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health, Japan. Rather than rely on a worker’s eyes or habit alone, each step in a given task is reinforced physically and audibly to ensure the step is both complete and accurate."

This requires at least some modicum of positive attention to complete, moving the act from "habit" to " action".

This was an excellent article even for as short as it was. I personally would like to learn more about it. It is a shame that something like this could not be accepted more within the US. If it has the potential to reduce incidents that much according to the article then feeling "silly" should be something easy to get over.

To me you are taking individual ownership in every part of the task.

It incorporates:

Visual
Auditory
Physical

Great read I have shared it on FB as well. Thanks
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James L. Shaw Jr.
Lt Col., CAP
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2017, 10:10:14 AM »

Pointing and Calling works with the Japanese culture, doesn't translate very well to Western Cultures though.
It doesn't even translate to other Asian cultures very well either.
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NIN
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« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2017, 03:02:55 PM »

Watch the JMs on an airborne operation.  Everything they do when the door is open is essentially "pointing and calling."

In my other job,  we use visual cues backing up an audible cadence/checklist.  Put your finger on,  or point to everything, as you are doing it when you call it out.   

I'll be standing in the boarding area with my student and I'll verbalize the inspection sequence as I put my hand on everything in the sequence. Is in a specific order (head to toe, front then back) and if I am interrupted/distracted,  my hand is the last place I verbalized so I can resume without missing anything. Even after that is the mnemonic "SHAGG-R" (shoes, helmet, altimeter, goggles, gloves, radio). Go all the way thru gear inspection twice on the ground, once in the plane.  Again,  I touch and verbalize it all,  partly for me,  partly for my student to learn it.





Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2017, 03:48:56 PM »

Watch the JMs on an airborne operation.  Everything they do when the door is open is essentially "pointing and calling."

In my other job,  we use visual cues backing up an audible cadence/checklist.  Put your finger on,  or point to everything, as you are doing it when you call it out.   

I'll be standing in the boarding area with my student and I'll verbalize the inspection sequence as I put my hand on everything in the sequence. Is in a specific order (head to toe, front then back) and if I am interrupted/distracted,  my hand is the last place I verbalized so I can resume without missing anything. Even after that is the mnemonic "SHAGG-R" (shoes, helmet, altimeter, goggles, gloves, radio). Go all the way thru gear inspection twice on the ground, once in the plane.  Again,  I touch and verbalize it all,  partly for me,  partly for my student to learn it.





Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

The procedures used by the JM's when the door is open were developed because of the high noise levels inside the aircraft.
And parachute procedures are pretty much doing it by Rote memorization.
Pretty good idea when you're in a very noisy, high stress environment and mistakes can be deadly.
So Rote memorization and lots and lots of reps to make it second nature.
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Anthony@CAP
Recruit

Posts: 40

« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2017, 03:52:08 PM »

It's an interesting article, and while I agree it is a culture shift, I think it has less to with "culture" in the western vs eastern sense, and more to do just with the fact that it isn't already part of our safety practices; it's all about our established procedures. Case in Point, the New York City Subway system, they have been utilizing a similar point methodology to ensure the trains are stopped at the correct place on the platform since WWI. There's a stripped board at every station the train conductor has to align the train with, and they have to point at it before opening the doors. Here's the NYC MTA's explanation of the practice: http://www.mta.info/news/2013/11/12/subway-conductors-point-way-safety

And here is a way more fun explanation courtesy of YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9jIsxQNz0M

Do I think it's easy to institute such a wholesale change? No, but I do think we could do it and ingrain it in safety culture with a few years if we tried. The real question is how would we go about doing that as Civil Air Patrol, and which of our operations would be best suited for it?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2017, 05:17:48 PM »

The real question is how would we go about doing that as Civil Air Patrol, and which of our operations would be best suited for it?

Flight operations seem the natural starting point, with aircraft movement by human power being the place to start.

It might be a way to actually reduce hangar rash, or flying with the map pointer tow bar attached.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2017, 08:40:58 PM »

When I was in the Navy, I learned to do pre-flights that way - read it out loud from the checklist, then point to it on the plane and do the item.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2017, 09:55:34 PM »

When I was in the Navy, I learned to do pre-flights that way - read it out loud from the checklist, then point to it on the plane and do the item.

The only time I had to point out stuff during a pre-flight was when I was getting a check ride from a lazy evaluator.
The good ones could tell what you were doing by just watching what you were doing.
Of course on stuff like the exterior and interior checks you talked your way through it by saying what you were looking for.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 10:00:40 PM by PHall » Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 879

« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2017, 10:01:29 AM »

When I was in the Navy, I learned to do pre-flights that way - read it out loud from the checklist, then point to it on the plane and do the item.

The only time I had to point out stuff during a pre-flight was when I was getting a check ride from a lazy evaluator.
The good ones could tell what you were doing by just watching what you were doing.
Of course on stuff like the exterior and interior checks you talked your way through it by saying what you were looking for.

For training purposes, students should always read the checklists out loud and execute their flows out loud. With any two-man+ crew, checklists should be read aloud. Flows can be done in silence, but still encouraged to be out loud---whether walking around the airplane or inside the cockpit.

I get that most people don't do that out of habit and ease, but it's still good practice and keeps you fresh. Saying checklist items out loud is also a good way to get yourself to focus on an item and not stumble through the checklist because of the "read-glance-read-glance" process.

Couldn't hurt.

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NIN
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« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2017, 02:11:57 PM »

The procedures used by the JM's when the door is open were developed because of the high noise levels inside the aircraft.
And parachute procedures are pretty much doing it by Rote memorization.
Pretty good idea when you're in a very noisy, high stress environment and mistakes can be deadly.
So Rote memorization and lots and lots of reps to make it second nature.

Certainly, thats part of it (ie. "airborne hand-and-arm signals") for communication.

But when the load toad turns the doors over to the JMs, there's a whole series of things the JM does to ensure that the aircraft is properly configured for safe exits: they literally point at the pip pin in the door to confirm its there and installed.  After confirming the jump step is down, they check the entirety of the door perimeter for sharp edges or protrusions by pointing and following their hand around. It is  definitely a "point-and-call" kind of thing. They're not doing it for communications, they're doing it to ensure that everything along the linear area (i.e the door frame) is looked at and nothing is missed.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 465

« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2017, 04:15:36 PM »

...But when the load toad turns the doors over to the JMs, there's a whole series of things the JM does to ensure that the aircraft is properly configured for safe exits: they literally point at the pip pin in the door to confirm its there and installed.  After confirming the jump step is down, they check the entirety of the door perimeter for sharp edges or protrusions by pointing and following their hand around. It is  definitely a "point-and-call" kind of thing. They're not doing it for communications, they're doing it to ensure that everything along the linear area (i.e the door frame) is looked at and nothing is missed.

It's interesting how often unintentionally (or otherwise) abbreviated checklists show up in mishap/accident/fatality reports.  For example, some pilots have skipped through the "controls free and correct" checklist item with fatal consequences, confirming "fuel on both" detent by glancing (but not seeing) has resulted in more than one off airport landing, and flaps deployed/not deployed/not deployed as needed is failure with lotsa potential.  I think there's a lot of evidence that speak-look-touch-do is an effective antidote for checklist errors of omission (and commission).  Regardless, focusing on a checklist in a demonstrable way discourages passengers from interrupting... which in itself reduces errors caused by distraction and side trips.   Having a second person in the cockpit is helpful too - at least it is usually helpful :) .
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 04:21:45 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
NIN
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« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2017, 04:36:37 PM »

Having a second person [...] is helpful too - at least it is usually helpful :) .



Sometimes the 2nd person isn't helpful at all :)
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 465

« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2017, 05:27:19 PM »

Having a second person [...] is helpful too - at least it is usually helpful :) .



Sometimes the 2nd person isn't helpful at all :)

like when person no. 2 unintentionally (or otherwise) unlatches the chute crotch strap.   :o
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: For Safety Sake @ Work and CAP
 


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