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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
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Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2017, 09:11:54 PM »

CAP is essentially a private organization that tries to be military.

CAP is a paramilitary organization, just like FDs, & LEAs, there's a distinct difference. Some of the
trappings are there, but there is no organizational attempt to "wannabe military", and those individuals who do are an issue.

As far as the person in the "Golf Shirt", well, if they want to do it right then I can help them.  If they don't, and CAP doesn't care, probably not much I can do. 
They are already doing it "right", and that some might view that they aren't, is a problem, not an opportunity.

In the end, does it matter whats on my sleeve or shoulder?

No...and yet...

I ask honestly because I am interested in the expectation of a new member.  Assertions are made all the time that
military NCOs are better at training cadets, despite any particular skill or experience herding 12 year olds, or that somehow
their innate NCO super powers will "save" CAP, despite no particular experience or skill in a non-profit / volunteer environment,
no particular hands on with ES, AE, or even aviation, staffed mostly by adults with more age and experience, and further the (presumably) thousands of prior service NCOs who are wearing CAP officer grade to no detriment of their capabilities.

I'm also very curious what the reaction to this latest recruiting internal transition plan is by prior-service NCOs.
NCOs have historically stood on moral high ground about CAP officers (you did yourself here to some extent) - "too many",
"not qualified", "don't understand", etc., etc.

Well now that an E5 can rise to SMSgt in the same way (and even an E4 to MSgt), how is that any different?
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abdsp51
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2017, 09:28:34 PM »

I had the pleasure of serving with a CAP Chief and ask him some of the very same questions.  I received a much better answer from him than anyone else. 

As follows it was basically broken down that one of the ideas behind the NCO corp is to try and keep the military aspect within CAP.  It has been seen by too many that the officer corp is way to corporate. 

The NCO corp allows for a basis of and maintaining a military concept within the org. 

There is current nothing that a NCO in CAP can do that is currently not being fulfilled by CAP officers.  Especially CAP officers who are either current active duty or retired military NCOs. 

The program is still being worked on but long story short the basis is to keep and maintain a form of military culture residing within the NCO Corp.

Now I may have misunderstood and possible misquote the fine Chief as I had many sidebars with him over the course of the activity.  But the explanation he gave was far more in depth than anything received here or from NHQ. 

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.
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PHall
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2017, 10:00:31 PM »

To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2017, 10:06:58 PM »

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.

Second that.

I joined CAP as a cadet, and then joined the Navy five years later. I had to unlearn AF/CAPisms then, and then try to get rid of the Navyisms when I retired from the Navy. I had concurrent participation for about six years of the twenty I spent in the Navy. Showing up at Navy places in a CAP officer uniform as a Navy enlisted made for some interesting encounters. It all worked out, though.

Regarding the OP, I considered being a CAP NCO a couple of times, but couldn't find any specific advantage for doing so.

Chief, you make some good points, but I think your efforts are a little off the mark. The cadet program, for the most part, is run by the cadets, with SM oversight as needed. If the SMs in your unit are running the show, there's something amiss.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2017, 10:16:24 PM »

My intention was not to ruffle any feathers here. If I did, I do apologize.  Just simply trying to answer a question the best I can.  As I said, I am not very good at expressing my thoughts on paper, er screen. 
To date I have had the pleasure of meeting many great folks in CAP, all officers and I have much respect for them all.  I never intended to make it appear that I feel I am better then anyone else, Just the opposite,  I think I have a lot to offer,  And yes, I have a lot the learn.

I will just leave this here and be done since its not really going anywhere useful.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2017, 10:57:30 PM »

I think you're taking the desire for a legit discussion as stepping on toes, you're not, at least with me.

We're in a bubble here and pretty much have our individual camps - I am honestly interested in the
expectations of a new member with no preconceived notions.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 11:06:29 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Flying Pig
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2017, 05:46:49 AM »

As a CAP NCO, when you interact with outside agencies, be prepared to be asked "Where can I find the person in charge?"   Sorta like when someone comes to the door and asks my kids if their parents are home.    And no, Im not being a smart----.   Fire, Police and EMS may not know what all those stripes are called... but they know leaves and bars out rank stripes.  The fact that you were an E8 in whatever branch you were in means little to nothing when dealing with Public Safety organizations.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 05:50:14 AM by Flying Pig » Logged
FW
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2017, 09:10:34 AM »

As a CAP NCO, when you interact with outside agencies, be prepared to be asked "Where can I find the person in charge?"   Sorta like when someone comes to the door and asks my kids if their parents are home.    And no, Im not being a smart----.   Fire, Police and EMS may not know what all those stripes are called... but they know leaves and bars out rank stripes.  The fact that you were an E8 in whatever branch you were in means little to nothing when dealing with Public Safety organizations.

I had two senior military NCOs on my staff "back in the day".  Both decided to take the "officer" route, however acted like NCOs in their dealing with cadets, with senior members, the military, and ES agencies.  Both got into trouble, and I had to deal with the mess; especially with one that was a command sergeant major with the PaNG...  IMHO, stripes, bars, oak leaves don't make the member.  Training, and commitment to core values do.
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MSG Mac
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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2017, 11:13:22 AM »

When this was first publically announced in 2013/14, I was all for it. But after constantly being told "Full details should be out in 90 days or so (still waiting after three years), I am convinced that CAP doesn't have a plan, but an idea, (fantasy?, dream? hallucination?), without much behind it. National HQ's delaying all new publications, including R20-1, a new R50-17, etc. didn't help in elaborating the duties of the NCO or the training differences between the NCO and Officer programs. Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander, and the insignia costs 2-3 times more than the Officers.   Otherwise the duties are the same.
Questions I would like to have answered"

1. When will the applicable regulations and manuals be published?
2. Is there a plan for eventually requiring all new members to start as Enlisted and go through an Officer course for Commissioning? (had that until the early 60's)
3. Will the Air Force allow NCO's to take the online PD courses for NCO's?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 11:22:26 AM by MSG Mac » Logged
Michael P. McEleney
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Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2017, 01:25:54 PM »

...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5
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lordmonar
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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2017, 01:42:47 PM »

1. When will the applicable regulations and manuals be published?
Your guess is as good as mine.

Quote
2. Is there a plan for eventually requiring all new members to start as Enlisted and go through an Officer course for Commissioning? (had that until the early 60's)
As of right now.  No.
Quote
3. Will the Air Force allow NCO's to take the online PD courses for NCO's?
Yes.  The USAF has said that they would allow our NCO's to take the PD courses.   This is tied into the NCO centric CAP PD that is.....still in development.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2017, 01:53:25 PM »

1. When will the applicable regulations and manuals be published?
Your guess is as good as mine.

Quote
2. Is there a plan for eventually requiring all new members to start as Enlisted and go through an Officer course for Commissioning? (had that until the early 60's)
As of right now.  No.
Quote
3. Will the Air Force allow NCO's to take the online PD courses for NCO's?
Yes.  The USAF has said that they would allow our NCO's to take the PD courses.   This is tied into the NCO centric CAP PD that is.....still in development.

Thanks for the info!
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Strup
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2017, 02:06:19 PM »

...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5

Closest thing I see is in 35-5, paragraph 6.4
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Strup
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Eclipse
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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2017, 04:35:25 PM »

...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5

Closest thing I see is in 35-5, paragraph 6.4

That's the weird thing - I know at some point there was a specific prohibition, but now all I can find is that verbiage about
NCOs coming in and out of the officer grades, which implies the prohibition, but doesn't explicitly say it.
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PHall
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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2017, 09:28:54 PM »

...Currently the only difference I can see is that the NCO can't be in a Commander...

For a number of years this was included in a reg somewhere, however I can't find it nor can I find an
old version of a reg that was revised.

Was this prohibition removed?  If not, where does it live?  I was all over and 20-1, 20-3, 35-1,35-3 & 35-5

Closest thing I see is in 35-5, paragraph 6.4

That's the weird thing - I know at some point there was a specific prohibition, but now all I can find is that verbiage about
NCOs coming in and out of the officer grades, which implies the prohibition, but doesn't explicitly say it.

Well like I said above, the current Commander of Sq 6750 in CAWG is a CMSgt. So I guess they can imply it all they want, but they're not acting to stop an NCO from being a Unit Commander.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2017, 10:38:40 PM »

Well like I said above, the current Commander of Sq 6750 in CAWG is a CMSgt. So I guess they can imply it all they want, but they're not acting to stop an NCO from being a Unit Commander.

It was not "implied", it was a direct statement in a regulation a number of us quoted here and elsewhere, I
just can't find it now.

It's not like it was a secret, your post indicates it was common knowledge since you felt it necessary to
show it was possible.  Expedient operations despite regulations to the contrary isn't exactly anything "new".
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2017, 11:39:46 AM »

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?nco_corps_to_gain_prominence_under_new_cap_plan&show=news&newsID=17657

Quote
In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels squadron, group, wing, region or national except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander.


Good read on the first page and on here too: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18078.0


3.5 years later, and people were right.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2017, 11:42:29 AM »

Fair enough, but where in an actual regulation is command reserved for Officers?

I know it was in there somewhere, I can't believe no one has dug it out yet from either a current or
revised document.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2017, 11:59:12 AM »

Fair enough, but where in an actual regulation is command reserved for Officers?

I know it was in there somewhere, I can't believe no one has dug it out yet from either a current or
revised document.


I can't find it, but it was in the "white paper" as well: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19311.msg356416#msg356416


Bottom of page 2
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SarDragon
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« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2017, 03:37:39 PM »

Fair enough, but where in an actual regulation is command reserved for Officers?

I know it was in there somewhere, I can't believe no one has dug it out yet from either a current or
revised document.

The 35-5 back to Mar 2010 has nothing, and my archives before that are unavailable right now. I'll try to dig them up later today.
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Dave Bowles
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