Keeping element leaders in front of column while marching?

Started by CaptainQantas, November 20, 2016, 08:26:23 PM

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CaptainQantas

      Hi, so I just took my C/T/Sgt. drill test where I had to drill a flight in marching techniques. After the test was over I didn't pass due to not keeping the element leaders in front of the column while marching the whole time. I would really appreciate it if anyone could give me tips on how to keep them in front. Thanks!

RogueLeader

Well, depending on the command, the Element leaders won't be in the front, such as a right flank or left flank.  I checked the Tests, and keeping the Element Leaders in the front is not a criteria graded.  Ask them, politely where that criteria is located on the test.  [Hint: it's not there]
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

RogueLeader

I should also note that for the TSgt drill test, the only thing that they should be grading you on is how you call the commands, not the execution of the commands.  Perhaps your evaluator needs a re-read of CAPT 78-2.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

CaptainQantas

Ok thank you! Something did seem a little off during the test.

RogueLeader

One last thing. . . .for now. . .  one error is not enough to fail any CAP Test.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

Eclipse

+1 on RL's points - Ach 4 specifically indicates that non-proficient cadets should be used and I don't see anything about
Element leader position, it's call about the calls.

You might take page 9 of this: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPT_782_Drill_Test_FINAL_0D0A619D59581.pdf
and have a respectful conversation with the senior member who scored the test to insure the expectations
are understood by all parties.

"That Others May Zoom"

coudano

So was this the test to earn C/TSgt (the achievement 4 test)
Or was it the test you took AS a C/TSgt (the achievement 5 test)

Seems like it could go either way...

Achievement 4 test (the way it's written) has cadets take off in inverted line
(from line formation, about face, forward march)
...just one of the many lovely little intricacies of the drill tests...  that have been pointed out, but not corrected, over the years...

...why would you have them dress right dress immediately after falling in...   doesn't fall in imply dress right dress (?)



There is no prohibition in the test about adding a command, but there's no requirement either.



The Achievement 5 test ends an open ranks / close ranks (in line formation)
And then asks the cadet to do a column of files...
which would require the cadet to insert a "Right FACE" first, since you don't do a column of files from line.


So that said,

Quote from: cap 60-20 and afman 36-2203 infact have written4.2.6. Normally, the flight is marched with the element leaders and the guide at the head of
the column.


So yeah, that's "normal"

Of course we are "testing" here, so that's a little abnormal...

In the case of the achievement 4 test, it's already not "normal" because you are supposed to be drilling an element, not a flight.
--however, we are doing flanks here, which by definition are quick changes and by definition will cause your element leader[strike]s[/strike] to no longer be at the head of his element.


Normal might apply more to the achievement 5 test, but the commands in that test keep things aligned properly right up until the end when it asks for a column move while in line formation.

calebtornado12

#7
So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...

kwe1009

Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 21, 2016, 09:01:20 PM
So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)

For CAP Drill and Ceremony please refer to CAPP 60-20.  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/CAPP6020_5_AUG_16_7DBD8E8D46644.pdf .  That is the standard for CAP.

calebtornado12

Quote from: kwe1009 on November 21, 2016, 09:44:51 PM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 21, 2016, 09:01:20 PM
So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)

For CAP Drill and Ceremony please refer to CAPP 60-20.  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/CAPP6020_5_AUG_16_7DBD8E8D46644.pdf .  That is the standard for CAP.

Yes he would be correct, however, CAP has not done the best job with explaining or showing the movements, and they are all based and designed off of AFMAN36-2203, so thats why its my first go to when I have a question, then CAPP 60-20
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...

kwe1009

Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 22, 2016, 12:48:38 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on November 21, 2016, 09:44:51 PM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 21, 2016, 09:01:20 PM
So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)

For CAP Drill and Ceremony please refer to CAPP 60-20.  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/CAPP6020_5_AUG_16_7DBD8E8D46644.pdf .  That is the standard for CAP.

Yes he would be correct, however, CAP has not done the best job with explaining or showing the movements, and they are all based and designed off of AFMAN36-2203, so thats why its my first go to when I have a question, then CAPP 60-20

Have you looked at CAPP 60-20?  What areas are lacking?

CAPP 60-20 is now the CAP standard for D&C.  If you look at any other document first then you may be going down the wrong path.

calebtornado12

Quote from: kwe1009 on November 22, 2016, 01:43:49 PM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 22, 2016, 12:48:38 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on November 21, 2016, 09:44:51 PM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 21, 2016, 09:01:20 PM
So like all the others were already saying, your tester shouldn't have been grading you on where the cadets ended up, that in all honesty, could be the fault of the cadets in the flight, I don't know. However, if you would like some help as to knowing where the cadets should be located after each movement, I would HIGHLY recommend looking at AFMAN36-2203, which is  the Air Force's Drill and ceremony manual. It shows pictures and diagrams and helped me quite a lot, to the point where our squadron now has the best drill team simply because we know where to go and how to do movements at its core. Hope that helps, and good luck!  :)

For CAP Drill and Ceremony please refer to CAPP 60-20.  https://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/CAPP6020_5_AUG_16_7DBD8E8D46644.pdf .  That is the standard for CAP.

CAPP 60-20 was literally written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently   

Yes he would be correct, however, CAP has not done the best job with explaining or showing the movements, and they are all based and designed off of AFMAN36-2203, so thats why its my first go to when I have a question, then CAPP 60-20

Have you looked at CAPP 60-20?  What areas are lacking?

CAPP 60-20 is now the CAP standard for D&C.  If you look at any other document first then you may be going down the wrong path.


CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently  refined and changed in the areas that were previously lacking. Once again, don't get me wrong, yes, it is a good source and I would recommend using it, but it was created on the foundation of AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...

calebtornado12

And this is a stupid thing to be arguing about! CaptainQantas, use both of these resources to help you out, one could help you in a place that other other may not be able to help you.
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...

Eclipse

Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 22, 2016, 04:31:59 PM
CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently  refined and changed in the areas that were previously lacking. Once again, don't get me wrong, yes, it is a good source and I would recommend using it, but it was created on the foundation of AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Cadet,

CAPP 60-20 isn't a "good source" it is the only source from a CAP perspective, regardless of the
when, why, or how it was published.

Except for those vary rare cases where reference to the AFMAN is indicated, your best tactic
is to leave it at home and not mention it anymore, otherwise you risk confusing those in your charge,
or being confused yourself.

"That Others May Zoom"

calebtornado12

Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 22, 2016, 04:31:59 PM
CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently  refined and changed in the areas that were previously lacking. Once again, don't get me wrong, yes, it is a good source and I would recommend using it, but it was created on the foundation of AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Cadet,

CAPP 60-20 isn't a "good source" it is the only source from a CAP perspective, regardless of the
when, why, or how it was published.

Except for those vary rare cases where reference to the AFMAN is indicated, your best tactic
is to leave it at home and not mention it anymore, otherwise you risk confusing those in your charge,
or being confused yourself.

Will do, thank you sir. Case closed
C/2nd Lt. Caleb Bryant
Boise Composite Flight Commander
RMR-ID-073
Off we go, into the 'Wild Blue Yonder'...

Ned

Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 22, 2016, 04:31:59 PM
CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC.

I don't want to distract from the good advice being given here, but since the pamphlet was written and published on my watch, I did want to point out that the above is not correct.  The Pamphlet was written entirely by highly experienced CAP members who are Cadet Programs officers with special expertise in drill and ceremonies. 

Sorry for the tangent, but I felt I needed to make the correction.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager

kwe1009

Quote from: Ned on November 22, 2016, 05:18:11 PM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 22, 2016, 04:31:59 PM
CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC.

I don't want to distract from the good advice being given here, but since the pamphlet was written and published on my watch, I did want to point out that the above is not correct.  The Pamphlet was written entirely by highly experienced CAP members who are Cadet Programs officers with special expertise in drill and ceremonies. 

Sorry for the tangent, but I felt I needed to make the correction.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager

And as one of the authors of this document, I have over 30 years of experience with drill and color guards in the Air Force (including many years of Honor Guard).  I have also coached Region winning drill teams.  The other authors were also very knowledgeable and experienced.  I'm not sure where this cadet got his information from but it is very incorrect.

If something is lacking in CAPP 60-20, let us know and we can fix it.  Just throwing out blanket statements doesn't help anything.

NIN

Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 22, 2016, 04:31:59 PM
<snip>AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Don't be so quick to point to AFMAN 36-2203 as the end-all, be-all source document.

15+ years ago, one our staff guys from CadetStuff called the OPR at Lackland and pointed out the typographical error in para 3.18. 

They went "Whoa, we totally missed this in the last re-write. We'll get it fixed for the next edition!"

Its still wrong, after at least two iterations of the manual.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

jeders

Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 22, 2016, 04:31:59 PM
CAPP 60-20 was literally mostly written by people who aren't even members of CAP that have experience in Color Guards, Honor Guards, Drill Teams, ETC. CAPP 60-20 is a good source, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that is was only recently  refined and changed in the areas that were previously lacking. Once again, don't get me wrong, yes, it is a good source and I would recommend using it, but it was created on the foundation of AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Cadet,

CAPP 60-20 isn't a "good source" it is the only source from a CAP perspective, regardless of the
when, why, or how it was published.

Except it isn't the only source from a CAP perspective. It is just a guide which draws upon various other publications, including AFMAN 36-2203. So, based on that, and the fact that 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203, I would say that it is entirely proper to use the AFMAN first and the CAPP second.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

Quote from: jeders on November 22, 2016, 06:20:49 PM
Except it isn't the only source from a CAP perspective. It is just a guide which draws upon various other publications, including AFMAN 36-2203. So, based on that, and the fact that 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203, I would say that it is entirely proper to use the AFMAN first and the CAPP second.

AFMAN first?  No.  That is incorrect.  It's not even a CAP pub.

You use CAP publications first and foremost, and only go outside when necessary or referred specificly.

In this case, there are a couple of instances involving larger-scale activities such as CoC with parades where the AFMAN is referred to
only because CAP does them so rarely.

Otherwise CAPP 60-20 should be the first and only.

52-16 predates the hesitance of 60-20 and will undoubtedly be corrected in the next revision.

"That Others May Zoom"

jeders

Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2016, 06:43:48 PM
You use CAP publications first and foremost, and only go outside when necessary or referred specificly.

You mean like how 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203?

Quote
52-16 predates the hesitance of 60-20 and will undoubtedly be corrected in the next revision.

Yes it does and yes it probably will be changed. But that's the future, and we only go out of the time-space continuum when necessary or referred specificly (whatever that word is).
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

Quote from: jeders on November 22, 2016, 06:51:56 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2016, 06:43:48 PM
You use CAP publications first and foremost, and only go outside when necessary or referred specificly.

You mean like how 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203?

A knowledgeable CP staffer would say "Yes - 52-16 is out of date, CAP has a specific pamphlet now, use that..."

"That Others May Zoom"

jeders

Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2016, 06:55:22 PM
Quote from: jeders on November 22, 2016, 06:51:56 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2016, 06:43:48 PM
You use CAP publications first and foremost, and only go outside when necessary or referred specificly.

You mean like how 52-16 specifically calls out 36-2203?

A knowledgeable CP staffer would say "Yes - 52-16 is out of date, CAP has a specific pamphlet now, use that..."

A knowledgeable CP staffer would also say, "This new thing is based almost entirely on this old thing with just a few new examples and very special circumstances addressed. So since we already have the old thing, let's just use it until we come across a situation that requires us to use the new thing."
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

LATORRECA

#24
Quote from: CaptainQantas on November 20, 2016, 08:26:23 PM
      Hi, so I just took my C/T/Sgt. drill test where I had to drill a flight in marching techniques. After the test was over I didn't pass due to not keeping the element leaders in front of the column while marching the whole time. I would really appreciate it if anyone could give me tips on how to keep them in front. Thanks!

Motivator,

   Technically, if you marching the flight backwards the only commands you can provide is to te fear or halt. The front of the formation it towards your element leaders. The test you took was to evaluated you on your ability to lead a flight and knowledge about it. You can fail the drill test unless you have fail 5 movement or criterias. Depend on the test (more can be missed), however the test you took doesn't evaluate that, only evaluate the ability for you to call the command on the proper foot or follow on commands. 
     The only way you can keep the flight marching foward is using all the commands given to you. I said it again if you give the command "to the rear" then the only command you can provide while marching backwards is "to the rear" to change the direction of your flight to move forward then any command after that. If you give the command right/left flank then give another command to place them facing forward.  Towards the guide.
    I have teach my cadets that keeping the flights marching foward is the only way and the other commands are there to move the flight around obstacles. Flanks are to march sideways and change the direction of marching to the flanks however, you can't do to the rear March while you marching it to the sides, you can stop the flight by given halt or March time. All the time keep yourself to the left of the formation about 2/3 of it. Change the direction of the formation by using column right/left or obliques.
    Just practice to use all the commands available to you disposal and drive the bus foward next time. Good luck. If you going to teach drill you have to know all about it and rules. As cadet you can't take everything for granted you don't know if your seniors are teaching you the right thing. In CAP we have lots of people saying and doing things because they were taught that way and never bother to find out if it was right or wrong. Read the manuals inform yourself and as cadet become familiar with the 52-16, drill manual and 39-1, 3. ..  Tip. Use a cadet with a guidon or stick to give you a better understanding of the foward of the formation

AFMAN 36-2203 page 32, par. 4.2.6. Normally, the flight is marched with the element leaders and the guide at the head of the column.

V/R
Carlos A

coudano

Quote from: LATORRECA on November 22, 2016, 11:46:14 PM
Motivator,
Technically, if you marching the flight backwards the only commands you can provide is to te fear or halt.

to the fear???



Since you are being technical, please provide a cite from any publication anywhere that justifies the 'technical' assertion you just made.

LATORRECA

Quote from: coudano on November 23, 2016, 12:48:13 AM
Quote from: LATORRECA on November 22, 2016, 11:46:14 PM
Motivator,
Technically, if you marching the flight backwards the only commands you can provide is to te fear or halt.

to the fear???



Since you are being technical, please provide a cite from any publication anywhere that justifies the 'technical' assertion you just made.

Apologize I meant to said "to the rear" good catch.

kwe1009

Quote from: NIN on November 22, 2016, 06:00:58 PM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on November 22, 2016, 04:31:59 PM
<snip>AFMAN 36-2203, which I like to think has a little more thought put into it considering its the U.S.A.F.

Don't be so quick to point to AFMAN 36-2203 as the end-all, be-all source document.

15+ years ago, one our staff guys from CadetStuff called the OPR at Lackland and pointed out the typographical error in para 3.18. 

They went "Whoa, we totally missed this in the last re-write. We'll get it fixed for the next edition!"

Its still wrong, after at least two iterations of the manual.

Not surprising.  Outside of BMT and tech school there is no marching in the Air Force unless you are a member of the Honor Guard or you somehow get picked to march in a parade.  In my 30 years in the Air Force I have never had to march except when I was in the Honor Guard.

Drill is at best an afterthought for the Air Force.

Brad

I just checked the Achievement 4 C/TSgt test, as can be found here: https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPT_782_Drill_Test_FINAL_746403DBED6F4.pdf on page 9. (Not a secured item) and based off my going over the listed sequence in my head, the element(s) should start and end in line formation, not column formation, so the element leader should be on the formation's right, your left.

If the grader dinged you for "not keeping the element leaders in front of the formation"  when the only marching commands are - using the tested Cadet facing the formation in line normally as a starting reference - a forward march when the formation is in line after an about face (they're marching away from you in line), a left flank (now they're marching forward in column), a right flank (now they're marching in line away from you again), and finally a to the rear (now they're marching towards you in line), then that is definitely a fault on the tester.

1.) The test setup specifically calls for a single element of 2 cadets at minimum. Not a flight.

2.) How is it possible to keep the element leader(s) in front of the formation at all times and still execute the listed sequence? Impossible, period. It sounds to me like someone is misreading something somewhere in a drill manual about keeping element leaders in the front and applying that instruction somewhere to a condition where common sense says no. "Oh, you're marching in line? Well of course the element leaders are not suddenly going to break ranks and trot out to in front of the line formation!"

3.) These are the graded items of the test:

1. Knowledge
Calls commands on the correct foot (when the foot
corresponding to the direction of movement strikes the
ground)
2. Interval
Calls commands of execution two steps after calling the
preparatory commands
3. Voice
Calls commands loud enough for the element to hear
them
Calls commands clear enough for the element to
understand them
4. Bearing
Calls commands decisively, with snap and a sense of “Go!”
Maintains good military bearing
5. Overall Leadership
Calls cadence or halts and restarts the element, if the
cadets fall out of step or lose alignment
Completes all assigned commands


I certainly don't see anything on that list about where the element leader(s) is/are, aside from maybe the alignment item, but that's a big stretch.

Seriously, follow up - respectfully - with your Cadet chain of command, and possibly your Senior leadership too if needed, you got a bad deal.
Brad Lee
Maj, CAP
Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff, Communications
Mid-Atlantic Region
K4RMN