Initial Flight Training for SMs

[Psicorp]

CAP allowed to fly and train cadets for free because of our congressionally mandated AE mission.

Nothing in any federal law restricts our AE mission to cadets so there is no rational basis for prohibiting initial flight training of senior members while allowing it for cadets.

Very valid point.  Education shouldn't be restricted access.

[DNall]

My contention would not be that adults need to have access to flight training for AE purposes, but rather to train from scratch to mission pilots in conjunction with a contractual committment. That seems to be a mission essential item, where FAA is just giving into the poor flight school market worried about losing more business to a cheaper govt subsidized alternative.

[RiverAux]

Makes sense.  Have the contract say that CAP will let you take your initial flight training in a  CAP plane (with you paying for gas) provided that you obtain enough hours to become a mission pilot in a reasonable period of time and that you agree to stay a current mission pilot for another reasonable period of time and that if you don't you will have to pay the difference in the cost of your initial flight training between the CAP costs and that of local FBOs (FBO flight training cost - cost of gas spent in CAP training = what you owe CAP). 

[Tim Medeiros]

Makes sense.  Have the contract say that CAP will let you take your initial flight training in a  CAP plane (with you paying for gas) provided that you obtain enough hours to become a mission pilot in a reasonable period of time and that you agree to stay a current mission pilot for another reasonable period of time and that if you don't you will have to pay the difference in the cost of your initial flight training between the CAP costs and that of local FBOs (FBO flight training cost - cost of gas spent in CAP training = what you owe CAP). 

Dont forget the cost of the CAP aircraft as well, not just fuel

[DNall]

Flight training:
1) do the CFIs get paid? Cause they aren't going to fly adults for free. They only fly a handful of cadets for free each year, which honestly works to inspire many times more to pay their own way.

2) What about the maint hours? Those aren't going to be funded just as  areward to adult membership. The issue for a flight school is they invest in planes & get the return by putting hours on them in a given timeframe. If you reduce the bulk hours they do then those assets aren't as valuable.

You pay the dry rate, plus fuel, plus CFI... then you're right in the same range as a commercial flight school, and what have you gained?

I'd be more in favor of a funded flight training program. Set a target number & distribution of mission pilots nationally, and then provide subsidized training to meet that. It would require an application & medical with some upfront apptitude test & maybe a flight evaluation. Then it would come with a service contract. The terms of that contract would have to be stiff enough in length & mandatory participation (some kind of point system maybe like the guard/res) that it desincentivizes people coming to CAP just for that & equals out in work what you'd be paying for normal civilian flight training. And if you can't keep up your end of the contract then you owe a boat load of money.

That's a nice idea, but pie in the sky cause FAA is never going to relent to the flight school lobby. What's more realistic is partnering with someone like USAA, AFA, NOPA, etc to offer extremely low interest financing options for flight training leading to MP.

[floridacyclist]

AOPA has always been nice to us, and encouraging more folks to become pilots would be in their best interests.

[flyguy06]

Flight training:
1) do the CFIs get paid? Cause they aren't going to fly adults for free. They only fly a handful of cadets for free each year, which honestly works to inspire many times more to pay their own way.

2) What about the maint hours? Those aren't going to be funded just as  areward to adult membership. The issue for a flight school is they invest in planes & get the return by putting hours on them in a given timeframe. If you reduce the bulk hours they do then those assets aren't as valuable.

You pay the dry rate, plus fuel, plus CFI... then you're right in the same range as a commercial flight school, and what have you gained?

I'd be more in favor of a funded flight training program. Set a target number & distribution of mission pilots nationally, and then provide subsidized training to meet that. It would require an application & medical with some upfront apptitude test & maybe a flight evaluation. Then it would come with a service contract. The terms of that contract would have to be stiff enough in length & mandatory participation (some kind of point system maybe like the guard/res) that it desincentivizes people coming to CAP just for that & equals out in work what you'd be paying for normal civilian flight training. And if you can't keep up your end of the contract then you owe a boat load of money.

That's a nice idea, but pie in the sky cause FAA is never going to relent to the flight school lobby. What's more realistic is partnering with someone like USAA, AFA, NOPA, etc to offer extremely low interest financing options for flight training leading to MP.

If you start paying CFI's for flight training, then CAP ceases to be a non profit organization. I am agauinst Adults taking flying lessons to get their PPL in CAP. Many wil use it as a way to get to the airlines and not give back to CAP. We give flights to casets as a way to motivate them to pursue aviation as a career. This is made mainly through orientation flights. I have never taken a pol but I qwould guess that the percentage of cadets who actually get a private pilots licesnse solely through CAP is very low. CAP is a not a flight training school. Keep in mind everyone that fliwes in CAP is not interested in being a mission pilot. Some just want to fly o rides and some useit to stay proficient.

[DNall]

What about military pilots? How many of them are serving their obligation & then leaving for the airlines, heck not even that, how may come in the reserves & go straight to the airlines w/o even putting in their time.

I think it's fine if we picked people that prove they're qualified & earn a competititve slot to train from scratch to mission pilot, if they then have a contractual obligation for a number of years that includes regular participation as a MP & active involvement as a staff officer - pretty much a point system. You see what I'm saying here? If you just wanted a pilot's license, it'd be a lot quicker & easier to pay for it, but if you go thru this program you're gong to bust your butt & pay for it in long hard service that's going to absolutely suck if you don't really want to be in CAP & just see the flying as a way of serving.

[Capt Rivera]

Flight training:
1) do the CFIs get paid? Cause they aren't going to fly adults for free. They only fly a handful of cadets for free each year, which honestly works to inspire many times more to pay their own way.

Why speak like your an authority on a subject if your not an authority on it. Your statement doesn't even hold the backing of your personal experience. Just what you feel. Are you a CFI who wouldn't teach unless getting paid? Thanks for your "pure love of aviation."

As of now NO CFI can instruct for pay in a CAP plane. They probably should even pay the Pro-rata share of fuel, Oil and airport fees. [Don't quote me on the last statement to the FARs, I didn't research it specifically, so I could be wrong.

I have met no less then 10 CFI's who were willing to instruct any and everyone who met CAP Regs and FAR's. Their passion to teach or share their knowledge with other members of this great organization even causes them to do ground school lessons, not just cockpit experience.

Before you say something like, "they just want to build hours." Some want to be Airline pilots, or military aviators, some ARE. Both for whatever their personal reasons choose to do this. Whether it helps them in their personal/professional lives or not, they would still be performing a mission for America.

When you make blanket discouraging statements they reflect on not just you and your squadron, but on every member, every squadron, the CAP as a whole and the US Air Force. If you want to belittle yourself or the members in your squadron be specific, don't publicly or privately speak in that way for anyone else, concerning everyone else.

Oh yeah... The issue is not inspiration to fly or learn to fly, but rather that some or most who would love to can't afford to. Moreover then not affording to, they can barely afford to be in CAP as they take unpaid vacations from work to conduct SARs, go to Cadet activities etc. If you feel there is a lack of motivation as opposed to a lack of money, I want to see you offer a scholarship to pay for one officers flight experience leading to a private. After you get done researching how much that would cost you on average, take a guess at how many applications you would get. If you decide to do this give me a heads up, you will get my application first.

[Capt Rivera]

What about military pilots? How many of them are serving their obligation & then leaving for the airlines, heck not even that, how may come in the reserves & go straight to the airlines w/o even putting in their time.

How many? As a tax payer and actual member of the military I demand to know! You must have stats somewhere to make such a direct statement against the reserves. I really hope no USAF-CAP etc read these posts. You wonder why some people don't take our CAPabilities seriously.

In all honestly if I was a General who has never known anything about CAP and read things with so much disrespect from its most active members, I would NOT be inclined to give CAP anything more then what I was forced to do.

Statements like that make me ashamed.

[ddelaney103]

What about military pilots? How many of them are serving their obligation & then leaving for the airlines, heck not even that, how may come in the reserves & go straight to the airlines w/o even putting in their time.

How many? As a tax payer and actual member of the military I demand to know! You must have stats somewhere to make such a direct statement against the reserves. I really hope no USAF-CAP etc read these posts. You wonder why some people don't take our CAPabilities seriously.

In all honestly if I was a General who has never known anything about CAP and read things with so much disrespect from its most active members, I would NOT be inclined to give CAP anything more then what I was forced to do.

Statements like that make me ashamed.

Read in a very narrow way, his statement is correct.  An RC pilot would go to the various schools, get his seasoning training, then shift to reserve duty (for aviators, this works out to a few days a month - staying current means more than a weekend).  He would then be able to get an airline job a few yeas before his AC counterpart comes off his/her full time commitment.  This is not a bad deal for the gov't, as they are getting extra flying time for their pilot on someone else's nickel.

However, the RC aviator still has a commitment to serve: he can't just bail on the AF without getting hammered.  Frankly, the people I know who were getting two years of 60 days in, 60 days out probably don't feel as if they were cheating Uncle Sugar.

In the end there is an agreement: we'll train you and you owe us X amount of time.  Since the gov't sets the rules (and controls the loopholes) it's hard to feel that they are being taken advantage of.  You have to balance the cost for the soldier - too little and the gov't gets cheated, too much and you end up with an Army of One (two if you're lucky).

[DNall]

Flight training:
1) do the CFIs get paid? Cause they aren't going to fly adults for free. They only fly a handful of cadets for free each year, which honestly works to inspire many times more to pay their own way.

I have met no less then 10 CFI's who were willing to instruct any and everyone who met CAP Regs and FAR's. Their passion to teach or share their knowledge with other members of this great organization even causes them to do ground school lessons, not just cockpit experience.

There's a half dozen plus active CFIs on here that've stated it repeatedly, including some of those from flight encampments. I don't think you'll find many CFIs willing to take food off their family's table so fellow CAP members can have a free ride.

Before you say something like, "they just want to build hours." Some want to be Airline pilots, or military aviators, some ARE. Both for whatever their personal reasons choose to do this. Whether it helps them in their personal/professional lives or not, they would still be performing a mission for America.

Well first of all, that was not me that said that, it was a fellow Army officer & combat vet, but attention to detail is overrated I guess, I do however concur with him.

Everyone is fine with mil/airline pilots flying for CAP, the issue is joe blow off the street that wants to make a hundred grand a year & doesn't give hoot about CAP, but is perfectly willing to put on a show & dissapear right after he's got what he wanted. That's a legitimate concern that would have to be addressed in offering flight training. The military recognizes & addresses this concern with a significant service obligation. We could do soemthing similiar to get our money's worth via a service contract with financial penalties.

The rest of your statement is way off base & kind of rambling, so I'm not going to address it if you don't mind.

[DNall]

What about military pilots? How many of them are serving their obligation & then leaving for the airlines, heck not even that, how may come in the reserves & go straight to the airlines w/o even putting in their time.

How many? As a tax payer and actual member of the military I demand to know! You must have stats somewhere to make such a direct statement against the reserves.

Stats for how many reserve aviators have comercial flying jobs prior to serving 8 years after flight training? No I don't have any statistics on that, but I'll refer you to my local CAP-RAP reservist who is an IP in the AF  & Southwest Airlines pilot for a long time now & still hasn't completed his initial service obligation.

You want some more examples, come on down here. My unit is in Iraq right now, but when they get back in a few months I'll be happy to introduce you around. Most of them work for airlines or other comerical flying. The two that just got the DFC both do. Most of them had such jobs before completing their initial service obligation.

I got no problem with any of that. It is indeed a good deal for the govt, and a very good deal for the aviator. I would not howerver allow people to take that training at our expense & then dissappear with no further obligation. I'm willing to release them from our contract to enter the military, but otherwise, I think quid pro quo is very appropriate.

Other then that, I'd respectfully request that you tone down some of your statements, perhaps consider the edit button after you've re-read the statements you're all iffed about.

[Capt Rivera]

Flight training:
1) do the CFIs get paid? Cause they aren't going to fly adults for free. They only fly a handful of cadets for free each year, which honestly works to inspire many times more to pay their own way.

I have met no less then 10 CFI's who were willing to instruct any and everyone who met CAP Regs and FAR's. Their passion to teach or share their knowledge with other members of this great organization even causes them to do ground school lessons, not just cockpit experience.

There's a half dozen plus active CFIs on here that've stated it repeatedly, including some of those from flight encampments. I don't think you'll find many CFIs willing to take food off their family's table so fellow CAP members can have a free ride.

Before you say something like, "they just want to build hours." Some want to be Airline pilots, or military aviators, some ARE. Both for whatever their personal reasons choose to do this. Whether it helps them in their personal/professional lives or not, they would still be performing a mission for America.

Well first of all, that was not me that said that, it was a fellow Army officer & combat vet, but attention to detail is overrated I guess, I do however concur with him.

Everyone is fine with mil/airline pilots flying for CAP, the issue is joe blow off the street that wants to make a hundred grand a year & doesn't give hoot about CAP, but is perfectly willing to put on a show & dissapear right after he's got what he wanted. That's a legitimate concern that would have to be addressed in offering flight training. The military recognizes & addresses this concern with a significant service obligation. We could do soemthing similiar to get our money's worth via a service contract with financial penalties.

The rest of your statement is way off base & kind of rambling, so I'm not going to address it if you don't mind.

I know my statement to be on base and direct. i addressed statements you made and commented further to what I would guess you'd reply. [the point on not everyone doing it to log flight hours.] I made that statement not in response to what anyone has said in the past but to what I figured you would respond with. You agreed so I believe that makes my statement correct. 

I do however concur with him.

I love when people will take offence to being corrected when wrong by trying to belittle someone. Did saying I lack attention to detail make you feel better or like more of a man? Seriously, if your going to make a statement like that, reread what you post. Spell check and grammar check is your friend, well in your case it might not be. I know I am far from the best on those two points but some of your mistakes are just to obvious, especially if your speaking to attention to detail.

You wont respond because I believe you have nothing constructive to say.

Yes the military has good incentives and service commitments. A military aviator does more then just come home from training and sign up with an airline. For one they have a minimal active service time on station immediately following training. Length is dependant on airframe. They drill as mission dictates and are prepared to leave friends and family to put themselves in harms way so that you can come online from the safety of your house and talk negatively about them. They don't get paid well for the type of flying they do and if they choose to stay in past their initial 10 year commitment, they still wont be getting paid equal to their airline counterparts. Reserve and guard bases are not closed 24/7 except for drill weekends. Members are on station everyday ready to defend your freedom. You generalize an entire entity based on your limited "experience". You obviously have no real clue at all.

By assuming that Joe Blow off the street will only want to take and run you limit the possibility that Joe might have good intentions. You forget that people can have an effect on a persons attitude. It just so happens people's minds change and Joe might find value in this organization and want to continue to give back to it.

I think one of the major short comings of CAP is that too many people lack true vision.

Arthur Mendelson: You're focusing on the problem. If you focus on the problem, you can't see the solution. Never focus on the problem!

Arthur Mendelson: See what no one else sees. See what everyone chooses not to see... out of fear, conformity or laziness. See the whole world anew each day!

[Capt Rivera]

What about military pilots? How many of them are serving their obligation & then leaving for the airlines, heck not even that, how may come in the reserves & go straight to the airlines w/o even putting in their time.

How many? As a tax payer and actual member of the military I demand to know! You must have stats somewhere to make such a direct statement against the reserves.

Stats for how many reserve aviators have comercial flying jobs prior to serving 8 years after flight training? No I don't have any statistics on that, but I'll refer you to my local CAP-RAP reservist who is an IP in the AF  & Southwest Airlines pilot for a long time now & still hasn't completed his initial service obligation.

You want some more examples, come on down here. My unit is in Iraq right now, but when they get back in a few months I'll be happy to introduce you around. Most of them work for airlines or other comerical flying. The two that just got the DFC both do. Most of them had such jobs before completing their initial service obligation.

I got no problem with any of that. It is indeed a good deal for the govt, and a very good deal for the aviator. I would not howerver allow people to take that training at our expense & then dissappear with no further obligation. I'm willing to release them from our contract to enter the military, but otherwise, I think quid pro quo is very appropriate.

Other then that, I'd respectfully request that you tone down some of your statements, perhaps consider the edit button after you've re-read the statements you're all iffed about.

Your changing your statement. You started off saying they don't do what they committed to do. They take and leave. Now you saying that they gain something and concurrently while performing their duties they manage to do something else to further their life. I congratulate anyone who can balance those great responsibilities. If it helps this is what you said:

What about military pilots? How many of them are serving their obligation & then leaving for the airlines, heck not even that, how may come in the reserves & go straight to the airlines w/o even putting in their time.

Do you see the difference in what your saying now and what you said then? I bet you do... It's all in the details. 

[DNall]

Your sentences are jumping around somewhat & I'm having a hard time understanding what you're arguing about. I'd really like to understand though...

If you believe CFIs will volunteer to train a few hundred adults a year to fly for free, when that's taking off their plate, when those adults are or should be gainfully employed, and when there is no obligation incured in exchange for this free service... well, then please search out the many threads on the subject from the many CFIs on this forum, and do feel free to put that case to your 10 or so CFI friends to ask them if they'd really carry thru on it under those circumstances.

Are you really saying CAP should offer free flight training to anyone off the street that wants it... that our CFIs will volunteer to do that in mass production cause they just have a joy of teaching people to fly... that those students won't be using CAP to get flight training but cause they really want to stay on & serve us... and none of them would be getting flight training cause they think they can use it to move them part way to commercial aviation. Does that remotely make sense to you?

I know how the reserve component works & aviation units within it, I'm in such a unit. I know very well that we're open 365 days a year, even when it's a skeleton crew. I know when pilots come back from flight training that they still have to check out as combat ready with the chief IP. That is not a 40hr a week pursuit, it depends on the IP & operations for the budget & scheduling. It'll take several months, but between then they'll be back home trying to figure out how to pay the mortgage & they'll be real interested in paid flying jobs as soon as they can get one, which will be inside 6 or 8 or 10 years. And again, good for them, I got no problem with that. I'm sure some of them came in as pilots to get that training & they'll be gome after the initial obligation. Our retention past that point is horrible. I'd like ot think people aren't coming in just for the training, but frankly I don't care, the length of the initial obligation is timed to make it worth it to us, so anything past that is bonus to the service. That's a reasonable contract, and I think any reasonable person would tell you if we're going to offer free or extremely discounted adult flight training in CAP then it should come with a simliar contractual obligation to stick around & use those skills for CAP till we've gotten a sufficiant return out of you & then you're free to stay or go as you please.

Your changing your statement.

No, you're inferring information not present.

What about military pilots? How many of them are serving their obligation & then leaving for the airlines, heck not even that, how may come in the reserves & go straight to the airlines w/o even putting in their time.

See where I said case A) serves obligation & THEN leaves for airlines; case B) gets trained & gets paid by airlines before they've served out their obligation.

I'm sure I could have been more clear, I appologize for that, but the guy behind you had no trouble figuring it out. You chose to infer an alternative that was illogical & then attack on the basis of that assumption.

[Capt Rivera]

Your sentences are jumping around somewhat & I'm having a hard time understanding what you're arguing about. I'd really like to understand though...

If you believe CFIs will volunteer to train a few hundred adults a year to fly for free, when that's taking off their plate, when those adults are or should be gainfully employed, and when there is no obligation incured in exchange for this free service... well, then please search out the many threads on the subject from the many CFIs on this forum, and do feel free to put that case to your 10 or so CFI friends to ask them if they'd really carry thru on it under those circumstances.

Are you really saying CAP should offer free flight training to anyone off the street that wants it... that our CFIs will volunteer to do that in mass production cause they just have a joy of teaching people to fly... that those students won't be using CAP to get flight training but cause they really want to stay on & serve us... and none of them would be getting flight training cause they think they can use it to move them part way to commercial aviation. Does that remotely make sense to you?

I know how the reserve component works & aviation units within it, I'm in such a unit. I know very well that we're open 365 days a year, even when it's a skeleton crew. I know when pilots come back from flight training that they still have to check out as combat ready with the chief IP. That is not a 40hr a week pursuit, it depends on the IP & operations for the budget & scheduling. It'll take several months, but between then they'll be back home trying to figure out how to pay the mortgage & they'll be real interested in paid flying jobs as soon as they can get one, which will be inside 6 or 8 or 10 years. And again, good for them, I got no problem with that. I'm sure some of them came in as pilots to get that training & they'll be gome after the initial obligation. Our retention past that point is horrible. I'd like ot think people aren't coming in just for the training, but frankly I don't care, the length of the initial obligation is timed to make it worth it to us, so anything past that is bonus to the service. That's a reasonable contract, and I think any reasonable person would tell you if we're going to offer free or extremely discounted adult flight training in CAP then it should come with a simliar contractual obligation to stick around & use those skills for CAP till we've gotten a sufficiant return out of you & then you're free to stay or go as you please.

Your changing your statement.

No, you're inferring information not present.

What about military pilots? How many of them are serving their obligation & then leaving for the airlines, heck not even that, how may come in the reserves & go straight to the airlines w/o even putting in their time.

See where I said case A) serves obligation & THEN leaves for airlines; case B) gets trained & gets paid by airlines before they've served out their obligation.

I'm sure I could have been more clear, I appologize for that, but the guy behind you had no trouble figuring it out. You chose to infer an alternative that was illogical & then attack on the basis of that assumption.

your words are,-= go straight to the airlines without putting in their time...=- anyone else see the issue with that statement? WITHOUT PUTTING IN THEIR TIME!?! did i make it up? ASSUMPTION? Grow up! You bash an entire group of individuals openly and can't even have an intelligent debate about what you stated. This is almost too easy. Don't worry about me, concentrate on what YOU said and how to fix it. I'm just the guy tired of listening to crap like this.

As you try to take your foot out of your mouth, try harder not to speak for me. Don't worry about what I believe but if you ask ill tell you. I believe the CFI should have the option to teach whomever they please and currently they don't have that option. Your focusing on the many possible problems instead of the possible benefit of saying, if you have a CFI and want to teach someone in furtherance of a private you can if you choose and if the SQ. Commander aproves. it is different from saying that they have to. No pilot would give up their day job if they couldn't afford to and it wouldn't be expected. But I know for sure there are pilots who would teach private and beyond in a CAP plane if they could. What is being asked is the ability to do it, not to force it onto a volunteer force.

My argument with you and anyone else who makes statements that discredit the Air force is that how can you expect them to take our volunteer non deployable force seriously if we cant even give them the respect they deserve at all times.

If you feel so confident in your position in the military and stand behind everything you've said on this board. Print it off and show it to the commander of whatever element you happen to be in and ask him to pass it up to the commander of the flying squadron and base commander. Get back to us then and let us know how your military carrier is doing.

[arajca]

What about military pilots? How many of them are serving their obligation & then leaving for the airlines, heck not even that, how may come in the reserves & go straight to the airlines w/o even putting in their time.

your words are,-= go straight to the airlines without putting in their time...=- anyone else see the issue with that statement? WITHOUT PUTTING IN THEIR TIME!?! did i make it up? ASSUMPTION? Grow up! You bash an entire group of individuals openly and can't even have an intelligent debate about what you stated. This is almost too easy. Don't worry about me, concentrate on what YOU said and how to fix it. I'm just the guy tired of listening to crap like this.

Scenario:
Jow Blow joins AF Res and gets trained as a C-17 pilot. In doing so, he incurs a service committment of, say, 10 years. Those ten years are his obligation. While not doing drill or two week annual training, Joe Blow signs on with ABC Airlines. ABC hires him because of his military training. Now, he has not completed his obligation (ten years, remember), but he has benefitted from his military training. So, Jow Blow has come into the reserves and straight into commercial fliying without putting in his time.

DNall is not talking about AD pilots leaving the service early to fly for United or someone else. The point being made is that some pilots join the reserves to gain the training and experience to sign on with an airline. The key word here is RESERVES. Skipping that word changes the entire point of the statement.

[JC004]

 

[DNall]

No one insulted the Air Force, reserve or otherwise. I stated that military aviators go out & get airline jobs, and reservists can do that before they've served their obligation out. That's fact, not insult!!!

I made that statement to demonstrate that it IS okay for people to get personal gain out of govt provided flight training, it's even okay if they come in with that motive, BUT we need a service contract to obligate them to a period of service to the org so we get a sufficient return out of our investment. Do you understand?

Whatever else you're talking about I don't know... you want CFI's to be able to teach who they want, FAA to lift the restiction? Okay great, so does everyone else. That was stipulated from the start. This is a discussion of under what circumstances is that a sound decision that we can sell to FAA & get funded by what options.

Other then that, step back & get some perspective.... Mod's please don't lock this. The earlier conversation is good. We're all professionals here. I 'm sure we can carry on from here in an upstanding manner.