AFJROTC Uniform Funding

[Afbrat52]

Why is it that the Air Force pays for all AFJROTC cadet uniforms (blues, ABUs, etc.) but doesn't pay for ours?
I don't mean to whine, but maybe the problem of cadets not having complete uniforms would be less if they didn't have to pay for them...

Also, please don't turn this into one of those dreaded "ABU threads."

[TheTravelingAirman]

The SASI (Senior Aerospace Science Instructor) and ASI (guess) are retired AF, who still answer to higher HQ for putting the Air Force in a bad light. Their inspections are carried out by other AF guys who know what they're looking for. They are still held to a semblance of a PT standard and are required to conform to it or lose their job. Ultimately, I think AETC realizes they have more control over how JROTC makes the Air Force look. And they have to compete with the other JROTCs.

CAP has no other cadet program to compete with (as far as they see it. ROTC doesn't count), and I've seen how a lot of senior members wear the uniform, and how that makes cadets wear it. AF doesn't like it, why would they enable it further?

Finally, we didn't have the USAF purchase our ROTC uniforms. They were loaned to us. We gave them back about 2 weeks prior to end of school, and got new ones within a month of start of next school year. No need to continually purchase new uniforms, just reissue them.

This is purely a guess, since I am not AETC, but it makes a bit of sense to me.

[abdsp51]

Traveling yes and no.  JROTC is more directly linked to the AF than we are.  The AF provides a good chunk of their budget.  And the AF was providing uniforms for cadets but there were snags with the program. 

[almostspaatz]

It is more likely for an AFJROTC cadet to go into the Air Force than a CAP cadet. Therefore the USAF sees that as a better use of funding.

My first DCoC was retired AF, we talked about this once.

[Mitchell 1969]

It is more likely for an AFJROTC cadet to go into the Air Force than a CAP cadet. Therefore the USAF sees that as a better use of funding.

My first DCoC was retired AF, we talked about this once.

More likely? That's a pretty big claim.

Years ago (1916 to maybe early 1980's or so, maybe later), JROTC (all of them, as they came into being), were considered to be recruitment paths. (In fact, from 1916 to the late 30's, JROTC was a path to a reserve commission). This has changed, to the point where JROTC programs flat out say that they are focused on leadership and character development, with military recruitment NOT being a program purpose.

Do you have any stats, studies, reports that support the "more likely to join the Air Force" claim?

[FW]

AFJROTC is directly administered by AETC thru the Holme Center. It's instructors are paid (in part) by big blue, and as stated, the uniforms are issued. CAP is a 501 C3 corporation administered by a Board of Governors, and is "watched over" by CAP-USAF; basically to insure we spend our "grant" as instructed by contract. JROTC students may get uniforms issued to them, however I'd rather pay for a uniform, and get all the other benefits that CAP provides for next to nothing.

[Offutteer]

AFJROTC is directly administered by AETC thru the Holme Center. It's instructors are paid (in part) by big blue, and as stated, the uniforms are issued. CAP is a 501 C3 corporation administered by a Board of Governors, and is "watched over" by CAP-USAF; basically to insure we spend our "grant" as instructed by contract. JROTC students may get uniforms issued to them, however I'd rather pay for a uniform, and get all the other benefits that CAP provides for next to nothing.

The Air Force allows CAP to spend money on cadet uniforms, but it's up to CAP to determine how much to spend, versus spending the money elsewhere. 

So, CAP get millions from the AF.  Now it's time to divide that up.  Missions (actual, training, counter drug) O-rides, paid employees, cadet uniforms, cadet books, etc.  Do we remove some funding from the O-Rides to get more into the uniform account, or do we cut training?  It's a limited amount, so in order to put more into one bucket, it has to come out of another one. (Aircraft and vehicle purchases are in a separate account from the O&M budget that I show being divided up.)

Yes, JROTC gets free uniforms (not always new), but they don't get O-Rides or other things that CAP cadets get. 


CAP's funding from the AF for this fiscal year is in the omnibus bill https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/83/text 

SEC. 8023. (a) Of the funds made available in this Act, not less than $39,500,000 shall be available for the Civil Air Patrol Corporation, of which—
(1) $27,400,000 shall be available from ''Operation and Maintenance, Air Force'' to support Civil Air Patrol Corporation operation and maintenance, readiness, counter-drug activities, and drug demand reduction activities involving youth programs;
(2) $10,400,000 shall be available from ''Aircraft Procurement, Air Force''; and
(3) $1,700,000 shall be available from ''Other Procurement, Air Force'' for vehicle procurement.
(b) The Secretary of the Air Force should waive reimbursement for any funds used by the Civil Air Patrol for counter-drug activities in support of Federal, State, and local government agencies.

How CAP can spend the money is listed in several documents, http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/other-publications-1709/  The Statement of Work is the most detailed, but others, such as AFI 10-2701, contain important information as well.

and what CAP spends its money on is listed in the financial report, http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAP_financial_report_web__PAGES_REO_5B15A8B93E58C.pdf

So, in the end, it's not about AF "paying for" JROTC's uniforms but not for CAP Cadets. 

(It was nice to be on a Region Finance Committee with a Finance Officer that was willing to explain a lot of this to me.)

[vorteks]

C/CMSgt = "almostspaatz"?  :clap:

[almostspaatz]

C/CMSgt = "almostspaatz"?  :clap:

Yeah-That's very much the point...

More likely? That's a pretty big claim.

Years ago (1916 to maybe early 1980's or so, maybe later), JROTC (all of them, as they came into being), were considered to be recruitment paths. (In fact, from 1916 to the late 30's, JROTC was a path to a reserve commission). This has changed, to the point where JROTC programs flat out say that they are focused on leadership and character development, with military recruitment NOT being a program purpose.

Do you have any stats, studies, reports that support the "more likely to join the Air Force" claim?

I don't personally-according to my last DCofC (retired AF, offered position as JROTC instructor, declined in order to work with CAP). According to him, the Air Force believes that it is more likely for AFJROTC cadets to join than CAP, part of that has to do with the fact that they are always supervised by former AF, whereas some squadrons in CAP have former AF. This was his explanation of why AFJROTC is provided with their uniforms (and ABUs). Anyway, that is the opinion of a Retired AF SNCO. I personally don't work with AF or JROTC personnel, so I personally don;t have any stats.

On another note, due to the (not so) recent changes of CAP structure, the AF isn't in direct control of CAP-which could have something to do with funding of uniforms.

[Luis R. Ramos]

If you do not have personal knowledge of something being true, do not offer it. Opinion of another person? Does not count as it may be biased and cannot be verified.

This is how rumors start.

[almostspaatz]

Which is why I made it clear that it is only an opinion

[Luis R. Ramos]

This was your first post, and nowhere does it say here it is an opinion.

Someone sees this and repeats it. They do not see your second post until two months later. Meanwhile they have spread your first post ad nauseaum, as proof of... nothing!

By Almost:

It is more likely for an AFJROTC cadet to go into the Air Force than a CAP cadet. Therefore the USAF sees that as a better use of funding.

My first DCoC was retired AF, we talked about this once.

If it was an opinion, you should have said so on this post. Not on the second.

[almostspaatz]

If it was an opinion, you should have said so on this post. Not on the second.

Fair enough. I did the best I could to clarify, after that mistake.

[Luis R. Ramos]

How many years you have been in CAP? Any thoughts about continuing as a senior member? It appears you want to make Spaatz...

[almostspaatz]

How many years you have been in CAP? Any thoughts about continuing as a senior member? It appears you want to make Spaatz...

2, yes (after turning 21) and yes

[Luis R. Ramos]

Wish you well... That you make all...

[almostspaatz]

I suppose I will start working on writing skills...

[Offutteer]

On another note, due to the (not so) recent changes of CAP structure, the AF isn't in direct control of CAP-which could have something to do with funding of uniforms.

I take the time to explain how it works, give you the references, and you STILL don't get it?  When the AF was in charge of CAP, they didn't give uniforms to every cadet. 

[almostspaatz]

The Air Force allows CAP to spend money on cadet uniforms, but it's up to CAP to determine how much to spend, versus spending the money elsewhere. 

So, CAP get millions from the AF.  Now it's time to divide that up.  Missions (actual, training, counter drug) O-rides, paid employees, cadet uniforms, cadet books, etc.  Do we remove some funding from the O-Rides to get more into the uniform account, or do we cut training?  It's a limited amount, so in order to put more into one bucket, it has to come out of another one. (Aircraft and vehicle purchases are in a separate account from the O&M budget that I show being divided up.)

Yes, JROTC gets free uniforms (not always new), but they don't get O-Rides or other things that CAP cadets get. 

I was agreeing with you...my contention was that since it is up to CAP, NHQ can divide their funding however they desire (to some extent of course).

Personally I would rather have the benefits of free O-flights over free uniforms....

[PHall]

The Air Force allows CAP to spend money on cadet uniforms, but it's up to CAP to determine how much to spend, versus spending the money elsewhere. 

So, CAP get millions from the AF.  Now it's time to divide that up.  Missions (actual, training, counter drug) O-rides, paid employees, cadet uniforms, cadet books, etc.  Do we remove some funding from the O-Rides to get more into the uniform account, or do we cut training?  It's a limited amount, so in order to put more into one bucket, it has to come out of another one. (Aircraft and vehicle purchases are in a separate account from the O&M budget that I show being divided up.)

Yes, JROTC gets free uniforms (not always new), but they don't get O-Rides or other things that CAP cadets get. 

I was agreeing with you...my contention was that since it is up to CAP, NHQ can divide their funding however they desire (to some extent of course).

Personally I would rather have the benefits of free O-flights over free uniforms....

No, NHQ can not divide their funding however they desire to.
They have a budget that says where the money goes and except for really exceptional circumstances, they can't change it.
Most of the money we get from the Air Force goes towards "Operations and Maintenance", i.e. flying those 550 airplanes we have.
Another big chunk buys us new airplanes and vehicles every year to replace the ones we retire.
The stuff that the Air Force doesn't pay for is paid for with membership dues.

[almostspaatz]

Sorry I was just going off of what Offuteer said...

So does NHQ actually create the budget?

[PHall]

Sorry I was just going off of what Offuteer said...

So does NHQ actually create the budget?

They're required by regulation to create one and to follow it.

[lordmonar]

Also to note....at the are various "colors" of money in the USAF and CAP.

One type can be spend on vehicles but not cadet uniforms and the other on aircraft but not vehicles....but some can be shift from one pot of money to the other.  It is very complicated.

Even on AD it is pretty strange.....fall out money at the end of the year may be spent on say furniture but not on parts and supplies.

For the records....the USAF does in fact pay for our cadets uniforms in the form of the the Free Uniform Program.

AFJROTC get uniforms from the more or less the same source.....but they are individually loaned to the cadets and replaced after a few years.

CAP probably could do something similar....but the over head of maintaining it would probably not be something we at the unit level would like to take on.

[Mitchell 1969]

Also to note....at the are various "colors" of money in the USAF and CAP.

One type can be spend on vehicles but not cadet uniforms and the other on aircraft but not vehicles....but some can be shift from one pot of money to the other.  It is very complicated.

Even on AD it is pretty strange.....fall out money at the end of the year may be spent on say furniture but not on parts and supplies.

For the records....the USAF does in fact pay for our cadets uniforms in the form of the the Free Uniform Program.

AFJROTC get uniforms from the more or less the same source.....but they are individually loaned to the cadets and replaced after a few years.

CAP probably could do something similar....but the over head of maintaining it would probably not be something we at the unit level would like to take on.

That last paragraph nails it. In high school, senior year, I was Batallion S-4 (supply) at my Army JROTC unit. Uniforms had to be turned in about 7-10 days before school ended. Stragglers had to be chased down. Then the uniforms had to be individually inspected for rips, loose seams, missing buttons, stains, general serviceability. After that, they were carted to a contract dry cleaner. Known rejects had to be tallied up, logged, replacements ordered. There was a matrix to determine sizes that had to be kept in stock, since nobody knew anyone's sizes for the next school year.

Once replacements arrived, each item had to receive laundry markings identifying the school and the size (because labels were either torn off or wore out during service life). Once the stuff came back from the cleaners, every item had to be individually re-measured and marked, as many of the items had received freelance alterations by "somebody's mom."

All of that ended up being pretty much a full time job for our retired Sergeant First Class for about a month of his summer break. (He got paid, but that was only right).

I think CAP would shed tears bigger than horse droppings if they had to do all of that, year round, at each squadron.

[arajca]

There's also the issue of many units not having the space to stock a lot uniforms.

[CAPAPRN]

I have a large stock of uniforms- we issue every cadet 1 BDU on joining, and a second before encampment. We usually end up outfitting our color guard members with blues until theirs arrive. While I have lots of cadets, it is a drain on the seniors, especially since the base we meet on put our storage shed 1 mile from the meeting facilities. I have always felt fairly supported by Big Blue when it comes to uniforms. We received tons of them after their woodland phase out, and tons of blues when they could still donate them, The problem now is regulations prohibit uniform donations- which was our big supplier. Oh well, lets see how the voucher works, we may end up directing new cadets to ebay when woodland cammo supplies run out in a couple of years.