Hawk Mountain Ranger School 2014

[ilovecap]

Official thread for Hawk Mountain Ranger School 2014 attendees. I got accepted as a basic student. Anyone else got accepted either as medic advanced ranger students etc.? This thread is the specific place for questions on this years HMRS also past graduates can comment to and help us out with any questions we may have.

I'm very excited! See you all at the mountains of Pennsylvania! 

[Pulsar]

We don't have mountains,...just hills.     

  good luck

[sarmed1]

its all realative....
when I lived in Texas it was in the "Hill Country"; there are bigger hills in my neighborhood in Pennsylvania, and its suburbia.

...and for some (especially those flat landers coming to visit) it can feel like Everest when you are hiking a 72 hour pack from 500 some feet up to 1500 some feet after living a life of couching, xboxing and munching potato chips all day.....

mk

[sarmed1]

....So........ any comments regarding the experience(s) of anyone who went?

MK

[Garibaldi]

My one cadet who went came to the meeting last night with her orange shirt, orange hat and orange (literally, the mud up there must have something in it) boots. Exhausted, but proud. She said she wanted to quit the first day, but kept with it, and now has a serious taste for oatmeal. She can't sleep in her bed, she has to sleep in her bag.

[Storm Chaser]

I had a cadet wear his orange t-shirt once to a meeting. He quickly learned his lesson and never did again.

[Archer]

[...]She can't sleep in her bed, she has to sleep in her bag.

UGHHHHHHHHHHH

[sarmed1]

I had a cadet wear his orange t-shirt once to a meeting. He quickly learned his lesson and never did again.

I wonder if that wont ever be an issue after next year......

mk

[Storm Chaser]

What's happening next year?

[sarmed1]

For starters, new reg, a new PAWG supplement would have to come out re-authorizing orange shirts for the school and ES activities.  Also the new reg stipulates black as the only authorized color for wear with BDU's starting 2015. 


mk

[lordmonar]

The old red.....back to the OD days.....stipulated only Green, Brown and Black as the only authorized T-shirt colors.

A new reg will not necessarily change anything.

[Eclipse]

The old red.....back to the OD days.....stipulated only Green, Brown and Black as the only authorized T-shirt colors.

A new reg will not necessarily change anything.

It certainly didn't this year.  It would appear no directive is too clear to be ignored.

They are still wearing their hats looking like they got stuck in the dryer door with metal grade despite
very clear instructions specific to HMRS to the contrary.

[LSThiker]

I think what he is also referring to is the fact that cadets can only wear black T-shirts with BDUs.  At Hawk, black T-shirts signified "expert" ranger.  Thus, now all cadets showing to Hawk will be wearing black T-shirts instead of the previous brown T-shirt rule.

[Spaceman3750]

Why do you need a T shirt to show ranger grade? They already have tabs...

[lordmonar]

Why do you need a T shirt to show ranger grade? They already have tabs...

And different patches on their hat, and pistol belts, and ascots, and ...............HMRS may be a great program.....but I really wish they'd get their bling under control.......and that's coming form someone is is a bling fan!

[PHall]

Why do you need a T shirt to show ranger grade? They already have tabs...

And different patches on their hat, and pistol belts, and ascots, and ...............HMRS may be a great program.....but I really wish they'd get their bling under control.......and that's coming form someone is is a bling fan!

But they're RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaangers Sir!

[sarmed1]

Why do you need a T shirt to show ranger grade? They already have tabs...

Due to the heat category index, most of the day time is blouses off; the different color t-shirts help differentiate between staff and students (so the theory goes)  Black for expert rangers, Red for medical personnel, orange for staff members and brown for students.  All students are given a school orange shirt on graduation. They receive and orange hat upon check in.

the current wing supplement restricts shirt wear to within the wing  and only for ES activities, the hat as well unless authorized by additional wings.  I would say that pin on rank is a hold over from the last wing supplement (technically the current one, though new reg should mean new supp) which specifically authorized pin on for senior or cadets with the BDU uniform.

If it is a thought out there there is no such thing as a "ranger roll" for HMRS, that reference in the 39-1 is direct carry over from the AFI, specific to military wear/jargon referring to the patrol style hat.   Nothing specifies how you will or wont wear a baseball style hat.

MK

[Eclipse]

I would say that pin on rank is a hold over from the last wing supplement (technically the current one, though new reg should mean new supp) which specifically authorized pin on for senior or cadets with the BDU uniform.

Just so I have this straight...

HMRS is "special" enough that it is called out in several places in 39-1, which means that was either do to lobbying by, or lobbying against
the current state of the HMRS uniform, but after publication, which was several months before HMRS 2014, no one bothered to actually see if changes had to be made?
Recognizing of course, that you are not an apologist for all things HMRS.

One would think that an activity which gets as much self-induced attention regarding their uniform would at least take the time to insure everyone is current.

"9.2.4. Hawk Mountain Ranger Training. Graduates of this program may wear one Ranger tab
awarded in accordance with that activity's procedures on the USAF-style BDU and Corporate Field
Uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in Chapter 5. Graduates of this program may wear
the orange baseball cap in one of two versions with the USAF-style BDU and Corporate Field Uniforms:
worn with the squadron number or worn with keystone device with senior member or cadet officer rank
insignia. Cloth rank insignia must be worn on the orange baseball cap when wearing the AF-style BDU
uniform. Metal or cloth rank insignia may be worn on the orange baseball cap when wearing the CAP
distinctive field uniform."

Please do not tell us that PAWG is going to try and supplement a reg to circumvent verbiage directed square at them.

If it is a thought out there there is no such thing as a "ranger roll" for HMRS, that reference in the 39-1 is direct carry over from the AFI, specific to military wear/jargon referring to the patrol style hat.   Nothing specifies how you will or wont wear a baseball style hat.

39-1 disagrees, and where the verbiage came from is irrelevant.

It clearly includes the "baseball cap style" as one of the approved types of headgear for the BDU, and then calls
out Ranger Rolls as prohibited.  This is not ambiguous, and if HMRS is going to assert that it is, well then
it's just more of the unnecessary same.  The intention is clear.

6.2.8.1. The BDU cap will be composed of a cloth woodland camouflage print either in a
"patrol style" or in a baseball cap style where the back half of the baseball style cap may be plastic mesh. 86 CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014
The BDU cap will rest squarely on the head with the bottom of the cap parallel with the ground. The brim
of the cap will face forward. Cap may not be pushed, rolled, folded or tucked in (e.g. ranger fold).

The above says "You can wear either a patrol or baseball style hat with the BDU, but neither can be rolled (etc.)"
Further definition of color, insignia, etc., is elsewhere in the document.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Disregard - pressed the wrong button.

[Spaceman3750]

Why do you need a T shirt to show ranger grade? They already have tabs...

Due to the heat category index, most of the day time is blouses off; the different color t-shirts help differentiate between staff and students (so the theory goes)  Black for expert rangers, Red for medical personnel, orange for staff members and brown for students.  All students are given a school orange shirt on graduation. They receive and orange hat upon check in.

We deblouse at NESA too, but we don't have issues identifying staff members.

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I figured that would be the point of the shirts, but if staff identification is truly an issue then I would find another way.

[Eclipse]

In a paramilitary environment, it's not hard to know who's in charge, and your chain should be
pretty short, regardless.

I got that request every year for encampment.

"How will the basics students know who we are?"

"Introduce yourself?"

A cadet in the cadre only needs to know who >his< flight staff are, not all of them, and if they are too
far off, there's a break down somewhere.  If things are handed off temporarily, then they need to be
told specifically, not left to guess based on shirt color.

And its not like this is a "seconds count, no time for backup, shoulder roll in" where "if you ask the wrong guy
people die"  this is a (presumably) controlled training environment where the staff are clearly known by all.

[Panzerbjorn]

I had a cadet wear his orange t-shirt once to a meeting. He quickly learned his lesson and never did again.

We let them wear their orange t-shirts and orange hats on the second BDU night of the month.  They earned them, nothing wrong with letting them show their pride.

[Storm Chaser]

I had a cadet wear his orange t-shirt once to a meeting. He quickly learned his lesson and never did again.

We let them wear their orange t-shirts and orange hats on the second BDU night of the month.  They earned them, nothing wrong with letting them show their pride.

No, they haven't. Not according to CAPM 39-1, away.

I can care less if they wear orange tutus at HMRS, but when members return to their home units, they need to leave those behind.

[Eclipse]

^ Well, that's kind of a fine point.  They have earned them, whether they mean anything locally is another conversation.

I could see allowing the stuff for wear once, right after Hawk, but I agree, on a regular basis they shouldn't, because
it really does set up an undeserved "special", and even if you like the idea, it's not supported or allowed by the regs,
and this is the kind of thing that starts them showing up elsewhere in those duds, which begins the "my Unit CC
says it's OK and this is all I brought" conversations.

Allowing them to show off their accomplishment once is fine, letting them break 39-1 every month because they
went to an NCSA 2 years ago isn't a good idea.

Unless you're going to let the NESA MAS guys wear shorts as a uniform, etc., etc., because at the end of the day it's
exactly the same thing.

[Storm Chaser]

CAPM 39-1 already allows HMRS graduates to wear their NCSA patch, a "Ranger" tab indicating their rating/level and an orange baseball cap. Why would anyone insist in wearing an orange t-shirt that's clearly not authorized?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Can I act as a curmudgeon?

The problem of interpretation of CAPM 39-1 or changing what it says is to be worn locally... This actually starts when commanders request recruit cadets wear black and whites until their applications are processed.

CAPM 39-1 does not requires this Black and White as uniform, this is more a "tradition."

And the dictum that "Commanders can request members wear one uniform to achieve a uniform appearance?" may not apply as these are recruits but not actually members yet...

By the way, I am not advocating a "right or wrong" side. As a squadron commander I will ask my new recruits to come in Black and Whites...

Or if an administrator believes this actually belongs in a different thread by itself, please let me know...

[sarmed1]

Please do not tell us that PAWG is going to try and supplement a reg to circumvent verbiage directed square at them.

I dont know, they have a supplement that is "current" that appears to do just that.
Ranger Fold is not directed at them.  Its a military term, in this case the whole paragraph is "stolen" from the AFI, with the exception of BDU or BBDu replacing the word ABU.  In the military doing things to the patrol style hat is a common issue, thats why it is addressed; if the concern was with the way HMRS wears their hats I am sure it would have been addressed in the section on HMRS's hat.

I would argue that hats are discussed in multiple sections, but the info about "Ranger Folds" is only discussed in reference to patrol style hats.  (BDU and BBDU)  in the BDU case you can have a baseball style hat of a BDU color, that follows the same rules as a patrol style or you can choose a CAP baseball hat of a color specified by the wing or region commander.  A entirely different numbered section under head gear.   HMRS's hat is falls under this section (as it is directed by the wing CC in regards to mandatory wear and specified color, and the wing CC issued a supplement with the details)

I would not disagree that they should have switched to cloth rank as directed by the new 39-1, however lets not be that dramatic.  The pub date was 26 June, the school started 11 July, thats not " several months"..... ( tit-for-tat i am sure the day that the change letter came out re-authorizing ranger tabs, most everyone who was authorized one, sewed it on)

and from what I have heard, it was more of a lobbying by rather than against.....but only then NUC really knows that one.

MK

[sarmed1]

I had a cadet wear his orange t-shirt once to a meeting. He quickly learned his lesson and never did again.

We let them wear their orange t-shirts and orange hats on the second BDU night of the month.  They earned them, nothing wrong with letting them show their pride.

No, they haven't. Not according to CAPM 39-1, away.


I can care less if they wear orange tutus at HMRS, but when members return to their home units, they need to leave those behind.

Shirt no, (not addressed in 39-1, only in PA by wing supplement) hat yes (has a specific mention in the 39-1...Chap 9)  Commanders can of course specify uniform, but 39-1 does say it is allowed, it makes no limiting restriction on where or when.....

MK

[sarmed1]

Back to one of the original comments that off shot into a uniform discussion (as if it wouldnt go that way) I have no idea how the mud was also orange..... that was not part of the plan.... One can only assume that after years of extensive orange shirts and rain the dye has somehow leached into the very rocks and soil

MK