One Choice

[WildWeasel]

I've made you National Commander of CAP for the day. But you can make only ONE frivolous uniform change. I'll be nice and let it be as big or small of a change as you want. What is your biggest OCD issue with the uniforms CAPTalk.

[Alaric]

Make one uniform.  Polos and khakis just like most of the Emergency Service organizations we work with

[LSThiker]

Redesign of the specialtry track badges.

[Eclipse]

I would create a Troll badge and award one to you.

[HGjunkie]

Switch out the blue beret for a pink one.

[WildWeasel]

I would create a Troll badge and award one to you.

Good effort. But I'm not sure it would be a good result to encourage such behavior.

[SarDragon]

Frivolous, he says. Hmmm...

Mandatory wear for all commanders - orange sash, sword, and plumed hat.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Return the AF-style uniform to pre-1990s configuration (blue rank slides, metal grade, CAP on collar lapels, blue nameplate for all).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Make one uniform.  Polos and khakis just like most of the Emergency Service organizations we work with

That would assume ES is our only mission.

[Alaric]

No it implies that the polo and khaki uniform is relatively inexpensive, easy to acquire, wearable by everyone, and does not require constant updating for new ribbons, rank, etch

[sarmed1]

Make one uniform.  Polos and khakis just like most of the Emergency Service organizations we work with

I would tweak that a bit.
Only cadets and seniors directly assigned to cadet programs wear AF style.  Everyone else is in polo and blue bdu style pants.  (they can be the same as your field uniform pants)

mk

[ol'fido]

OD Jungle Fatigues, OD Jungle Boots, and OD Fatigue Hat.

[Panache]

Decree that the AF-blue and G/Ws are being replaced by the "Monster Maroon" uniform from the Star Trek movies.

[Rick-DEL]

Return the AF-style uniform to pre-1990s configuration (blue rank slides, metal grade, CAP on collar lapels, blue nameplate for all).

Works for me...

[ColonelJack]

No it implies that the polo and khaki uniform is relatively inexpensive, easy to acquire, wearable by everyone, and does not require constant updating for new ribbons, rank, etch

So ... what I hear you saying is ... we don't need military-style uniforms at all.  Is that right?  Because if so, we wouldn't need to worry about ribbons, rank, etc., since - in this scenario - we wouldn't ever have a need for them.  Do I have that right?

Jack

[UH60guy]

Just to stir the pot, but what does it say about us as an organization that the question assumes uniforms are the first thing someone would change as a National Commander for a day, rather than contributing meaningfully to our core missions of Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education, and Emergency Services? Not that I have anything useful to contribute to the thread, but I have to have hope that what we wear would be secondary to what we do.

[Eclipse]

It doesn't say anything - the OP is a suspended troll.

[Alaric]

No it implies that the polo and khaki uniform is relatively inexpensive, easy to acquire, wearable by everyone, and does not require constant updating for new ribbons, rank, etch

So ... what I hear you saying is ... we don't need military-style uniforms at all.  Is that right?  Because if so, we wouldn't need to worry about ribbons, rank, etc., since - in this scenario - we wouldn't ever have a need for them.  Do I have that right?

Jack

You do.  Don't have to like my opinion, but its my opinion and I'm entitled to it.  I think there is way too much emphasis on rank and ribbons in this organization and way too little on getting the job done.

[Alaric]

Just to stir the pot, but what does it say about us as an organization that the question assumes uniforms are the first thing someone would change as a National Commander for a day, rather than contributing meaningfully to our core missions of Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education, and Emergency Services? Not that I have anything useful to contribute to the thread, but I have to have hope that what we wear would be secondary to what we do.

Agreed

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

You do.  Don't have to like my opinion, but its my opinion and I'm entitled to it.  I think there is way too much emphasis on rank and ribbons in this organization and way too little on getting the job done.

Which "job?"

We have three Congressionally-mandated missions: AE, ES and CP.  No one is more or less important than the others.

And we have worn uniforms nearly since our inception, from the USAAF "pinks and greens" to the combos of today.





I still think that something loosely modelled on the "Air America" wouldn't be too bad.









It really is not much different to what we already have.

[ColonelJack]

No it implies that the polo and khaki uniform is relatively inexpensive, easy to acquire, wearable by everyone, and does not require constant updating for new ribbons, rank, etch

So ... what I hear you saying is ... we don't need military-style uniforms at all.  Is that right?  Because if so, we wouldn't need to worry about ribbons, rank, etc., since - in this scenario - we wouldn't ever have a need for them.  Do I have that right?

Jack

You do.  Don't have to like my opinion, but its my opinion and I'm entitled to it.  I think there is way too much emphasis on rank and ribbons in this organization and way too little on getting the job done.

And I have no difficulty with you having an opinion and expressing it.  But it makes me wonder ... why did you join an organization that has rank and ribbons and all that jazz in the first place?  I'm not in the least belittling your contribution to CAP - and I want to be clear that I am very glad you're a member.  That being said, however, the question remains:  If you knew going in that this was an organization based on a military model, with rank and ribbons and all that stuff ... and you don't like any of that ... why did you become a member?

Jack

[ColonelJack]

Just to stir the pot, but what does it say about us as an organization that the question assumes uniforms are the first thing someone would change as a National Commander for a day, rather than contributing meaningfully to our core missions of Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education, and Emergency Services? Not that I have anything useful to contribute to the thread, but I have to have hope that what we wear would be secondary to what we do.

Agreed

You may be surprised to find that I agree also.  What we wear is not as important as what we do.

However, the uniform is a part of what we do.  Our parent service says so.  Our regulations say so.  So if you don't want to wear a uniform and all that ... why be here at all?

Jack

[Alaric]

Just to stir the pot, but what does it say about us as an organization that the question assumes uniforms are the first thing someone would change as a National Commander for a day, rather than contributing meaningfully to our core missions of Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education, and Emergency Services? Not that I have anything useful to contribute to the thread, but I have to have hope that what we wear would be secondary to what we do.

Agreed

You may be surprised to find that I agree also.  What we wear is not as important as what we do.

However, the uniform is a part of what we do.  Our parent service says so.  Our regulations say so.  So if you don't want to wear a uniform and all that ... why be here at all?

Jack

I was asked what change I would make, I stated what change I would make.  Also a polo shirt and khakis is a uniform as everyone would be wearing it.  It just may not be the uniform you think we should wear.

[UH60guy]

Just to stir the pot, but what does it say about us as an organization that the question assumes uniforms are the first thing someone would change as a National Commander for a day, rather than contributing meaningfully to our core missions of Cadet Programs, Aerospace Education, and Emergency Services? Not that I have anything useful to contribute to the thread, but I have to have hope that what we wear would be secondary to what we do.

Agreed

You may be surprised to find that I agree also.  What we wear is not as important as what we do.

However, the uniform is a part of what we do.  Our parent service says so.  Our regulations say so.  So if you don't want to wear a uniform and all that ... why be here at all?

Jack

I'm not saying I don't want to wear the uniform. I wear it proudly, just as I wear the Army uniform proudly in my day job. However, my thought is that... well... forgive me but I don't know how to express what I'm trying to say. Maybe some is lost in translation from spoken word to text, others in that I'm just not a good... word.. using... guy.

But, here goes. It seems like we place so much emphasis on what we wear, rather than just wearing it and getting the job done. I know, and I agree, that the uniform is a source of pride and a way to show off our accomplishments, as well as to demonstrate our close ties with the parent Service. I just feel (maybe that's the word, "feel") that many, or even most, of us tend to put the uniform front and center, above all else.

In my view, even CAP publications put too much emphasis on it. Have you looked at the pamphlets we send to new senior members? It seems like 50% is dedicated to uniforms and bling, rather than focusing on getting them situated and on a path to contribute meaningfully.

If I just wanted to wear a uniform, I could walk down the street to Ranger Joe's and buy one. Heck, you can see plenty of clowns around the web who do just that. To me the uniform has to mean something- in this case it represents my service to CAP, and what CAP represents to the Nation. However, that's as far as it goes. The uniform's a tool of the trade, not THE trade itself. That's probably getting closer to the point I'm trying to make, I just fear I'm not articulating what I mean to say well.

[Alaric]

No it implies that the polo and khaki uniform is relatively inexpensive, easy to acquire, wearable by everyone, and does not require constant updating for new ribbons, rank, etch

So ... what I hear you saying is ... we don't need military-style uniforms at all.  Is that right?  Because if so, we wouldn't need to worry about ribbons, rank, etc., since - in this scenario - we wouldn't ever have a need for them.  Do I have that right?

Jack

You do.  Don't have to like my opinion, but its my opinion and I'm entitled to it.  I think there is way too much emphasis on rank and ribbons in this organization and way too little on getting the job done.

And I have no difficulty with you having an opinion and expressing it.  But it makes me wonder ... why did you join an organization that has rank and ribbons and all that jazz in the first place?  I'm not in the least belittling your contribution to CAP - and I want to be clear that I am very glad you're a member.  That being said, however, the question remains:  If you knew going in that this was an organization based on a military model, with rank and ribbons and all that stuff ... and you don't like any of that ... why did you become a member?

Jack

As the lawyers say, you presume facts not in evidence. 

Whether I like rank and ribbons or not; I feel they cause more divisiveness than contribution to the organization as a whole.  Too many senior members are far too preoccupied with rank and ribbons.  That being the case, given the opportunity I would do away with them, perhaps then we could get our members to focus on AE, CP, and ES and not themselves.

[Eclipse]

Well, I guess the OP gets a Troll with V-Device.

Seriously, you guys walked right into a drive-by and started the same tired discussion.

[UH60guy]

^Oh, you're right. But which uniform would he put it on? 

[pascocap2002]

I've made you National Commander of CAP for the day. But you can make only ONE frivolous uniform change. I'll be nice and let it be as big or small of a change as you want. What is your biggest OCD issue with the uniforms CAPTalk.

I would make 1 uniform for ES, AE, and CP but I would have different badges that a member would wear that would show what they do in the organization. If your in AE, then you would wear the AE badge. If your in AE and ES, then you get to wear both badges. Then, I would create a regulation that would govern the use and the wear of the uniform and mimic AF standards and just for grins, I would name it the 39-1.

Here is where my idea for a uniform would get interesting:

I would form a panel of people (Not national board or anyone from NHQ, Region, or Wing staff but at least 2 members of the USAF) and that panel will listen to the general members ideas for uniforms and then make changes based upon members suggestions.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would form a panel of people (Not national board or anyone from NHQ, Region, or Wing staff but at least 2 members of the USAF) and that panel will listen to the general members ideas for uniforms and then make changes based upon members suggestions.

HORROR OF HORRORS!!!!

[abdsp51]

I would can the polo shirt right away.

[ol'fido]

/quote]I see from your waffenfarbe that you are in the artillery. I didn't realize that CAP had field artillery. Maybe in PAWG.

[ol'fido]

^^^^^^^
I have no idea what I did.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

/quote]


Das ist beβer, nicht wahr?

For those unfamiliar...the graphic is of a Stabshauptmann, an officer in the Bundesheer and Luftwaffe who is a "senior captain" and unlikely to be promoted beyond such.

[VNY]

I would can the polo shirt right away.

Just relegate it to what it is - a field/working uniform not suitable for regular meetings.  The new 39-1 actually seems to have addressed this - and corrected the problem.

[abdsp51]

I would can the polo shirt right away.

Just relegate it to what it is - a field/working uniform not suitable for regular meetings.  The new 39-1 actually seems to have addressed this - and corrected the problem.

I would get rid of it for good....

[pascocap2002]

I would form a panel of people (Not national board or anyone from NHQ, Region, or Wing staff but at least 2 members of the USAF) and that panel will listen to the general members ideas for uniforms and then make changes based upon members suggestions.

HORROR OF HORRORS!!!!

Finally, someone who sees my sarcasm. +1 to you sir.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would form a panel of people (Not national board or anyone from NHQ, Region, or Wing staff but at least 2 members of the USAF) and that panel will listen to the general members ideas for uniforms and then make changes based upon members suggestions.

HORROR OF HORRORS!!!!

Finally, someone who sees my sarcasm. +1 to you sir.

How can any posting saying that CAP leadership listening to members on uniform issues be anything but sarcasm?

As for the polo shirt, even though I have never worn one and do not plan to own one, I would not completely get rid of it.  It has its place - as a casual duty uniform; i.e., for squadron meetings in the summer.

It should never be the only uniform a member owns, which is contrary to regulations anyway.

[VNY]

As for the polo shirt, even though I have never worn one and do not plan to own one, I would not completely get rid of it.  It has its place - as a casual duty uniform; i.e., for squadron meetings in the summer.

It should never be the only uniform a member owns, which is contrary to regulations anyway.

The new regulation puts the polo shirt in the same uniform class as BDU and Flight Suits.  It isn't a service (AKA Class B) uniform anymore - and really never should have been.  I'm guessing that may be a holdover from the fact the polo shirt replaced the Guyaberra shirt and went in the same category by default.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The new regulation puts the polo shirt in the same uniform class as BDU and Flight Suits.  It isn't a service (AKA Class B) uniform anymore - and really never should have been.  I'm guessing that may be a holdover from the fact the polo shirt replaced the Guyaberra shirt and went in the same category by default.

I came in during the last of the era of the Guyaberra shirt.  I remember seeing them in the Bookstore catalogue, but I do not remember actually seeing a CAP member wearing one.  However, I do remember seeing a fair amount of "Smurf suits," though I never had one.

There were a few different styles of polo shirt when I came in.  I remember (and my memory is dodgy on this one, so please bear with me) an ultramarine blue one with white stencilled CAP crest, a white one with blue stencilled CAP crest, and something like the present-day one with the sewn-on CAP crest.  However I do not remember if the name/wings embroidery were available back then.

No doubt the regulations did not intend it this way, but the polo shirt back then was looked at largely as a "recreational" uniform, or even could be worn off-duty if one felt like it.  In other words...not really a "uniform" at all.

My unit CC wore the ultramarine blue one to one meeting because he had sent in his yearly dues but had not received his updated ID card (the old horrible flimsy blue and white ones with writing that easily smeared) back yet and did not believe he should wear our "normal" duty uniform (AF blue) until he had got it.

Again, probably not what regulations intended.

[Storm Chaser]

As for the polo shirt, even though I have never worn one and do not plan to own one, I would not completely get rid of it.  It has its place - as a casual duty uniform; i.e., for squadron meetings in the summer.

It should never be the only uniform a member owns, which is contrary to regulations anyway.

The new regulation puts the polo shirt in the same uniform class as BDU and Flight Suits.  It isn't a service (AKA Class B) uniform anymore - and really never should have been.  I'm guessing that may be a holdover from the fact the polo shirt replaced the Guyaberra shirt and went in the same category by default.

That's true to an extend. The polo shirt with gray pants is a work uniform, but not a field uniform. It should not be worn in field conditions, such as doing ground search and rescue in the wilderness.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That's true to an extend. The polo shirt with gray pants is a work uniform, but not a field uniform. It should not be worn in field conditions, such as doing ground search and rescue in the wilderness.

For safety reasons if nothing else.

[VNY]

That's true to an extend. The polo shirt with gray pants is a work uniform, but not a field uniform. It should not be worn in field conditions, such as doing ground search and rescue in the wilderness.

You wouldn't wear a flight suit for that either.  In no way did I mean to say the polo could be the ONLY work uniform, though a lot of people match it up with grey tac pants and use it that way.

[Private Investigator]

OD Jungle Fatigues, OD Jungle Boots, and OD Fatigue Hat.

Now that is a squared away Cadet at his encampment   :clap:

[Private Investigator]

I've made you National Commander of CAP for the day. But you can make only ONE frivolous uniform change. I'll be nice and let it be as big or small of a change as you want. What is your biggest OCD issue with the uniforms CAPTalk.

my #1 KHAKIS   

[ol'fido]

OD Jungle Fatigues, OD Jungle Boots, and OD Fatigue Hat.

Now that is a squared away Cadet at his encampment   :clap:

Yes, but standing fire watch is a little dodgy.

[sarmed1]

That's true to an extend. The polo shirt with gray pants is a work uniform, but not a field uniform. It should not be worn in field conditions, such as doing ground search and rescue in the wilderness.

For safety reasons if nothing else.

We did mention the tac/5.11 pant type option, but what makes it otherwise unsafe?

mk

[Camas]

Bring back the 1505's and the silver tans (1193's). Great looking uniforms!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We did mention the tac/5.11 pant type option, but what makes it otherwise unsafe?
mk

The fabric of the polo shirt itself is very thin.  I do not think that it is suited for "wilderness" operations, what with all the branches, thorns, thistles, etc. one can find in such a setting.

[tribalelder]

2 comments-

Polo shirt fabric is thin. But, likely to be covered by climate and conditions-appropriate civilian outerwear in any 'field' situation--after all, most polo shirts are short sleeve.

My uniform change - besides the upcoming weigh-ins, some measure of fitness to wear AF uniforms. Mile run at slowest cadet time ? Other suggestions ? 

The fitness requirement could be waived for ceremonial events--like awards nights, conferences and termination appeals.

[Eclipse]

My uniform change - besides the upcoming weigh-ins, some measure of fitness to wear AF uniforms. Mile run at slowest cadet time ? Other suggestions ? 

The proposed weigh-ins are a suggestion, and while it's something I would do, 99.9% of the unit CC's aren't going to want
to have those conversations.

A fitness test for the USAF-style uniforms would never fly.  That pre-supposes there's a fitness need for most CAP activities (there isn't)
and would also cause issues with older members who are well within specs but not able to run, etc.

[Panache]

Is there a mile run for active-duty USAF?  Just curious.

[Eclipse]

Also, I can't believe this drive-by troll generated 3 pages of comments on the same, tired, dusty road.
(Myself included).

[a2capt]

That's why I just sat there and watched.

[Private Investigator]

OD Jungle Fatigues, OD Jungle Boots, and OD Fatigue Hat.

Now that is a squared away Cadet at his encampment   :clap:

Yes, but standing fire watch is a little dodgy.

Well, actually quite 'sporty', IMHO   

[sarmed1]

Is there a mile run for active-duty USAF?  Just curious.

1.5 run actually.....

mk

[sarmed1]

My uniform change - besides the upcoming weigh-ins, some measure of fitness to wear AF uniforms. Mile run at slowest cadet time ? Other suggestions ? 

The proposed weigh-ins are a suggestion, and while it's something I would do, 99.9% of the unit CC's aren't going to want
to have those conversations.

A fitness test for the USAF-style uniforms would never fly.  That pre-supposes there's a fitness need for most CAP activities (there isn't)
and would also cause issues with older members who are well within specs but not able to run, etc.

In the reality of the USAF there isnt much of a need for fitness either.  Only a small precent perform duties with either a frequency or likelyhood of comabt or survival that being "super fit" is a necesity. 

I still say that CAP would benefit from a reasonable appearance in uniform (similar to the USAF) standard for USAF style wear.  Alternatively I would accept a weigh vs demonstrated physical fitness test.  If you are outside the weight limit you can do the physical fitness test, pass and you are good to go (I would consider the BMI/ % body fat measurement plan also)

mk

[Shuman 14]

I've made you National Commander of CAP for the day. But you can make only ONE frivolous uniform change. I'll be nice and let it be as big or small of a change as you want. What is your biggest OCD issue with the uniforms CAPTalk.

my #1 KHAKIS   

I was waiting for someone to say the "K" word.  :clap:

[Shuman 14]

Bring back the 1505's and the silver tans (1193's). Great looking uniforms!

Concur except then need to be in a more modern fabric (i.e. poly/rayon or poly/cotton blends). it would make them much easier to maintain and clean. They would also need less ironing.

[Shuman 14]

Also, I can't believe this drive-by troll generated 3 pages of comments on the same, tired, dusty road.
(Myself included).

The road may be tired and dusty but I'm guessing CAP members are still willing to travel on it do to their discontent with the current uniform situation.

[Eclipse]

Clearly and pointless.

[Shuman 14]

Return the AF-style uniform to pre-1990s configuration (blue rank slides, metal grade, CAP on collar lapels, blue nameplate for all).

May I offer a small caveat to that suggestion my good Staff Captain?

Do Like the USCGAux does with their superimposed "A" on all pin-on metal grade insignia; add a superimposed "CAP" in red/maroon enamel (same as the "Berry Board" color) on all metal pin on grades and on the shoulder boards embroider a "CAP" on the rank and/or outline/border the rank in the same red/maroon color.

Here's a picture as an example.



The top one is a collar pin and the the bottom one is for an outer coat's shoulder strap. Plenty of room to add a "C" and a "P" on either side of the "A".

Hopefully that would be enough of a difference to make Ma Blue happy.

Also the concept of a different color nameplate is  a somewhat common practice to differentiate between the actual military and their auxiliaries and adjunct forces (i.e. State Guards, State Defense Forces, State and Territorial Militias).

CAP currently uses Grey, USCGAux uses White, most SDFs use Bright Red, so I can't see Ma Blue signing off on a Blue nameplate.

I say keep the Grey one or adopt a red/maroon colored one that would match the the superimposed "CAP" and/or border color I outlined above.   

[Shuman 14]

Clearly and pointless.

Maybe, but until the rank-and-file of CAP get a real say in what they want their uniform to look like... it is what it is.

At least CAPTalk offers a forum to vent their frustrations and expound on their ideas.

[Storm Chaser]

Clearly and pointless.

Haven't you been commenting as well.

That's true to an extend. The polo shirt with gray pants is a work uniform, but not a field uniform. It should not be worn in field conditions, such as doing ground search and rescue in the wilderness.

You wouldn't wear a flight suit for that either.  In no way did I mean to say the polo could be the ONLY work uniform, though a lot of people match it up with grey tac pants and use it that way.

I never said you did. But many members DO believe these uniforms are equivalent and want to do field work wearing the polo uniform. In fact, I've personally seen members go to the field wearing polos and/or get qualified as GTM3, without owning a set of BDUs or BBDUs. The Task Guide is clear that one of these field uniforms IS required (O-0001).

[Eclipse]

Clearly and pointless.

Haven't you been commenting as well.

Yes, and I said as much.

A drive-by troll crops the same nonsense, then the same tired discussions start until it's locked or runs out of gas, again.

[VNY]

The Task Guide is clear that one of these field uniforms IS required (O-0001).

Unless you live in California, where you CAN'T use either one.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Maybe, but until the rank-and-file of CAP get a real say in what they want their uniform to look like... it is what it is.

Which, realistically, will not happen.  If the rank-and-file of CAP were listened to on uniform matters, chances are we would still have the CSU, but that is water over the dam unfortunately.

At least CAPTalk offers a forum to vent their frustrations and expound on their ideas.

And when it comes down to it, really, that is all CT is - a forum provided for us by someone else's generosity.

As to your idea...something broadly similar was trialled back when we lost metal grade.  A maroon epaulette "ring" with "CAP" embroidered on it was worn above the grade insignia.  It did not last long, and, by most accounts I have heard (I never saw one) looked goofy.

http://incountry.us/cappatches/RANK-OFC/history/circlets.pdf



Your suggestions are imaginative, but no way are we ever going to get metal grade back again.

My squadron CC back then, who later became a Wing CC and was good friends with Brigadier General Richard Anderson (then-CAP CC) told me that he and General Anderson had a conversation on the subject (just before we got the grey epaulette sleeves).  He said the General told him "CAP will never get metal grade back."

[Shuman 14]

^^^^^

CyBorg, I hear you and feel you, but it always begs the question, what did CAP do to lose that privilege?

"Someone" here told me that the whole trolling for salutes thing was an urban legend, so what was it that lost CAP it's metal rank, blue rank slides and blue nameplate? 

[Eclipse]

100 miles of bad road on Vimeo

[Shuman 14]

^^^^^

[Panache]

"Someone" here told me that the whole trolling for salutes thing was an urban legend, so what was it that lost CAP it's metal rank, blue rank slides and blue nameplate? 

Sometimes all it takes is urban legend if it reaches the right ears and they believe it.

Either that, or there was one bad apple who was at the wrong place at the wrong time and caught the attention of somebody high up, who decided to punish everybody for the misdeeds of one.

[SarDragon]

FWIW, the polo shirt comes in a long sleeve version, and the fabric is a little heavier (and warmer).

[Panache]

Is there a mile run for active-duty USAF?  Just curious.

1.5 run actually.....

Aaah.  Thank you.

[Garibaldi]

"Someone" here told me that the whole trolling for salutes thing was an urban legend, so what was it that lost CAP it's metal rank, blue rank slides and blue nameplate? 

Sometimes all it takes is urban legend if it reaches the right ears and they believe it.

Either that, or there was one bad apple who was at the wrong place at the wrong time and caught the attention of somebody high up, who decided to punish everybody for the misdeeds of one.

Everybody has their "factual" case of why we lost our metal and blue. I still don't know beyond the urban legends, half-truths, and suppositions.

[Eclipse]

The fact is that the USAF told CAP to change.

Anything else is irrelevant.

[SARDOC]

The Blue BDU Cap is still authorized metal grade insignia.  Both in the Current and the Draft uniform regulations.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^^^^

CyBorg, I hear you and feel you, but it always begs the question, what did CAP do to lose that privilege?

"Someone" here told me that the whole trolling for salutes thing was an urban legend, so what was it that lost CAP it's metal rank, blue rank slides and blue nameplate? 

I will tell you, as briefly as possible (for the benefit of others here who know the story/rumour/innuendo innumerable times).

1.  I joined CAP in September 1993.
2.  My squadron was wearing the maroon rank slides but we still had some of the blue ones in our inventory.
3.  I asked why.
4. The then-CC referenced above told me this, and these are as close a distillation of his words as I remember after 20 years:

"There have been a few incidents where people in CAP tried to exercise authority they did not have.  A former National Commander 'promoted' himself to two-star rank without Air Force approval.  A few CAP people have tried to dress down senior Air Force NCO's for not rendering proper military courtesy to them, which they are not obligated to do.  The Air Force decided its Auxiliary needed to be 'put in its place' and made to look different to them."

My then-deputy CC, who had been an active duty Air Force officer, corroborated the story.  She also offered some delightful suggestions as to what she would like to happen to the CAP personnel whose misbehaviour prompted the Air Force to act as they did.

This is an old CT thread on the topic.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11081.0

I was not there; however, virtually everyone I know who was in CAP at that time corroborates this story.

As I said earlier, my former CC went on to become a wing commander and held a regional position for a long time.  Almost his entire life was spent in CAP (he had been in since he was a cadet, and I do not think he had any breaks in service).  I have never had any reason to doubt him.

That is all I know.

The Blue BDU Cap is still authorized metal grade insignia.  Both in the Current and the Draft uniform regulations.

Which is something I do not understand.  Metal grade is forbidden in all cases but one.

[SARDOC]

The Blue BDU Cap is still authorized metal grade insignia.  Both in the Current and the Draft uniform regulations.

Which is something I do not understand.  Metal grade is forbidden in all cases but one.

I don't understand it either.   The fact that this still survives through multiple iterations of the Regulation, makes me wonder if the Air Force isn't completely opposed to the Metal grade?!? 

I would have thought that when the Air Force took issue with it that they would have barred it completely.  It makes me think, that what we know to be the allegations mentioned, aren't real at all.

[Storm Chaser]

I remember the blue slides and metal insignias, although I never wore them as a senior member. When I became a senior member, I wore the maroon slides briefly, before converting to the gray ones. While I do prefer the blue ones, I have no problems with the gray ones. They look good enough in my opinion. What I don't like, however, is the gray slides on the the service dress epaulets. They just don't look right.

I would gladly give up the U.S. cutouts for the C.A.P. ones and any other distinctive insignia or patch (wing patch, anyone?), if it meant getting rid of the slides on the service dress coat and going back to metal grade insignias. That said, it's been 20+ years since the change. So the odds of it changing now are slim at best.

Then again, we have to wonder if this has been brought up by the CAP brass in recent years and the Air Force said no. Or maybe the CAP brass just doesn't want to stir the pot on this issue. It's possible that the current Air Force leadership may not even remember that CAP wore blue slides and metal grade insignias over 20 years ago. It may be a non-issue to them, but we will never know for sure until we ask.

[VNY]

I remember the blue slides and metal insignias, although I never wore them as a senior member. When I became a senior member, I wore the maroon slides briefly, before converting to the gray ones. While I do prefer the blue ones, I have no problems with the gray ones. They look good enough in my opinion. What I don't like, however, is the gray slides on the the service dress epaulets. They just don't look right.

I would gladly give up the U.S. cutouts for the C.A.P. ones and any other distinctive insignia or patch (wing patch, anyone?), if it meant getting rid of the slides on the service dress coat and going back to metal grade insignias. That said, it's been 20+ years since the change. So the odds of it changing now are slim at best.

I personally have no problem with grey slides on any uniform that is supposed to have slide on rank.  On the service coat they look like a mistake.  However I am of the opinion that nothing is going to make the current service coat look good anyway, so no big loss there either.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would have thought that when the Air Force took issue with it that they would have barred it completely.  It makes me think, that what we know to be the allegations mentioned, aren't real at all.

Perhaps the reason is because it is just one item of headgear that is CAP-distinctive and bears no relation to any extant Air Force uniform.  Other than that, I am quite bemused myself.

I wore the maroon slides briefly, before converting to the gray ones.

When I joined we still had the leftover blue nameplates.  I wore maroon slides as a 2nd Lt and a 1st Lt.  As soon as the grey ones became available, I trashed my maroon ones.

What I don't like, however, is the gray slides on the the service dress epaulets. They just don't look right.

Agreed, but almost anything looks better than those horrid maroon slides did.

I would gladly give up the U.S. cutouts for the C.A.P. ones and any other distinctive insignia or patch (wing patch, anyone?), if it meant getting rid of the slides on the service dress coat and going back to metal grade insignias.

:clap: :clap:

I have often thought of the metal seal used on the mess dress.  It would not look out of place, would not be hard to affix, and would be "us."  I also thought of the brushed-silver nameplate that went with the CSU (I still have one but never got to wear it) that said "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, or wear the same blue nameplate that the cadets wear and that we used to wear.  I am not that attached to the silver nameplate.

I have also thought of blue slides with CAP embroidered on them for both the AF shirt and the service coat.  If one cannot read "CAP," that is not a distinctiveness problem, it is a literacy problem.

That said, it's been 20+ years since the change. So the odds of it changing now are slim at best.

You are quite probably correct; plus there are so many in CAP now who do not remember that we had them, and there are those who do who would carp "it's just change for the sake of change."  Many CAP members I know of are very status-quo people.

Then again, we have to wonder if this has been brought up by the CAP brass in recent years and the Air Force said no. Or maybe the CAP brass just doesn't want to stir the pot on this issue. It's possible that the current Air Force leadership may not even remember that CAP wore blue slides and metal grade insignias over 20 years ago. It may be a non-issue to them, but we will never know for sure until we ask.

Both are possible, but I think your assertion that the CAP brass doesn't want to stir the pot is far more likely.  There seems to be a mentality that had faded, but came back full-force with the CSU debacle, that anything involving changing the status quo will tick off the Air Force, which is illogical.

So I doubt the question will ever be asked.

[LSThiker]

I would gladly give up the U.S. cutouts for the C.A.P. ones

Actually I think we should just ditch the US cutouts.  The Senior Member officers are the only ones to wear them.  The proposed wear for NCOs are the CAP cutouts.  So we have a difference in the uniforms with cadets and NCOs wearing the CAP cutouts, while SM officers wear the US cutouts.  Personally, just make the uniform well uniform and go with CAP cutouts for all.

[VNY]

I would gladly give up the U.S. cutouts for the C.A.P. ones

Actually I think we should just ditch the US cutouts.  The Senior Member officers are the only ones to wear them.  The proposed wear for NCOs are the CAP cutouts.  So we have a difference in the uniforms with cadets and NCOs wearing the CAP cutouts, while SM officers wear the US cutouts.  Personally, just make the uniform well uniform and go with CAP cutouts for all.

Since the slide on ranks have CAP on them already I would say ditch the cutouts period.  Otherwise you are wearing "CAP" four times and its redundant.  USAF does not have cutouts on the shoulders which we effectively do given the current insignia arrangement.

[Storm Chaser]

Because we have CAP embroidered above the grade insignia on our epaulet slides, the Air Force allows us to wear the U.S. cutouts, just as they do. Before they removed the metal grade insignia off our service dress coat, we wore C.A.P. cutouts on the lapel. The Air Force wears cutouts on their service dress coat. We have always done so as well. I don't agree with eliminating them completely.

[LSThiker]

Because we have CAP embroidered above the grade insignia on our epaulet slides, the Air Force allows us to wear the U.S. cutouts, just as they do.

But the proposed NCO uniform will have CAP on the rank as well as a propeller (as opposed to the star), yet they will wear CAP cutouts.

[Storm Chaser]

Because we have CAP embroidered above the grade insignia on our epaulet slides, the Air Force allows us to wear the U.S. cutouts, just as they do.

But the proposed NCO uniform will have CAP on the rank as well as a propeller (as opposed to the star), yet they will wear CAP cutouts.

That's a carryover from previous uniform rules. It's very possible that in the future, CAP NCOs may be allowed to wear the encircled U.S. cutouts. That requires Air Force approval and I don't see the need to delay the new uniform manual for that change. When/if it happens, CAPM 39-1 can be updated.

[LSThiker]

That's a carryover from previous uniform rules. It's very possible that in the future, CAP NCOs may be allowed to wear the encircled U.S. cutouts. That requires Air Force approval and I don't see the need to delay the new uniform manual for that change. When/if it happens, CAPM 39-1 can be updated.

And the wear of Air Force NCO-style insignia with propeller and CAP does not require USAF-approval?  This would have been the best time to request such a change to the NCO uniform.  If you are going to overhaul the rank insignia, then overhaul the rest of the uniform.  Now, if the USAF said no, then I would definitely say the officers ditch the US cutouts.  But then again this is really a solution looking for a problem.

[arajca]

Because we have CAP embroidered above the grade insignia on our epaulet slides, the Air Force allows us to wear the U.S. cutouts, just as they do.

But the proposed NCO uniform will have CAP on the rank as well as a propeller (as opposed to the star), yet they will wear CAP cutouts.

That's a carryover from previous uniform rules. It's very possible that in the future, CAP NCOs may be allowed to wear the encircled U.S. cutouts. That requires Air Force approval and I don't see the need to delay the new uniform manual for that change. When/if it happens, CAPM 39-1 can be updated.

Or an ICL can be issued. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That's a carryover from previous uniform rules. It's very possible that in the future, CAP NCOs may be allowed to wear the encircled U.S. cutouts. That requires Air Force approval and I don't see the need to delay the new uniform manual for that change. When/if it happens, CAPM 39-1 can be updated.

And the wear of Air Force NCO-style insignia with propeller and CAP does not require USAF-approval?  This would have been the best time to request such a change to the NCO uniform.  If you are going to overhaul the rank insignia, then overhaul the rest of the uniform.  Now, if the USAF said no, then I would definitely say the officers ditch the US cutouts.  But then again this is really a solution looking for a problem.

Putting "CAP" on the NCO insignia is really overkill, given that CAP NCO's wear CAP cutouts already.  The tri-prop is enough to distinguish it.  For military personnel curious about the insignia there is an easy solution...ASK.

"Sergeant, why do you have the three-bladed prop on your stripes instead of the USAF star?"

"Because I am a noncommissioned officer in the Civil Air Patrol, the volunteer civilian Auxiliary of the USAF."

That would present a good opportunity to educate the asker about CAP.

[LSThiker]

Putting "CAP" on the NCO insignia is really overkill, given that CAP NCO's wear CAP cutouts already.  The tri-prop is enough to distinguish it.

I am curious if that was not a requirement set forth by the USAF. 

[Storm Chaser]

That's a carryover from previous uniform rules. It's very possible that in the future, CAP NCOs may be allowed to wear the encircled U.S. cutouts. That requires Air Force approval and I don't see the need to delay the new uniform manual for that change. When/if it happens, CAPM 39-1 can be updated.

And the wear of Air Force NCO-style insignia with propeller and CAP does not require USAF-approval?  This would have been the best time to request such a change to the NCO uniform.  If you are going to overhaul the rank insignia, then overhaul the rest of the uniform.  Now, if the USAF said no, then I would definitely say the officers ditch the US cutouts.  But then again this is really a solution looking for a problem.

Putting "CAP" on the NCO insignia is really overkill, given that CAP NCO's wear CAP cutouts already.  The tri-prop is enough to distinguish it.  For military personnel curious about the insignia there is an easy solution...ASK.

"Sergeant, why do you have the three-bladed prop on your stripes instead of the USAF star?"

"Because I am a noncommissioned officer in the Civil Air Patrol, the volunteer civilian Auxiliary of the USAF."

That would present a good opportunity to educate the asker about CAP.

Not necessarily. While I'm not crazy about the new design, this change allows for the C.A.P. cutouts to be removed from the collar of the AF-style service uniform, which is on par with our parent service. The same applies to the embroidered CAP collar insignia on the BDUs (although I admit it was never necessary as the blue and white insignia have always sticked out enough on it's own).

I am curious if that was not a requirement set forth by the USAF.

It's very possible.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

...this change allows for the C.A.P. cutouts to be removed from the collar of the AF-style service uniform, which is on par with our parent service. The same applies to the embroidered CAP collar insignia on the BDUs (although I admit it was never necessary as the blue and white insignia have always sticked out enough on it's own).

Please explain, because there is something I am not getting.  Our parent service wears U.S. cutouts in different designs for officers and enlisted.

I would support us going the route of CAP cutouts; as-is for officers and within the circle for enlisted/NCO.

That is, if we would get at least blue rank slides with "CAP" embroidered on them back.

[PHall]

That is, if we would get at least blue rank slides with "CAP" embroidered on them back.

Cadet Officers wear those right now.

[MSG Mac]

That is, if we would get at least blue rank slides with "CAP" embroidered on them back.

Cadet Officers wear those right now.

Blue grade slides are for  "Real People"!

[Panache]

That is, if we would get at least blue rank slides with "CAP" embroidered on them back.

Cadet Officers wear those right now.

Blue grade slides are for  "Real People"!

Not us dirty, unwashed CAP proles.

[Storm Chaser]

...this change allows for the C.A.P. cutouts to be removed from the collar of the AF-style service uniform, which is on par with our parent service. The same applies to the embroidered CAP collar insignia on the BDUs (although I admit it was never necessary as the blue and white insignia have always sticked out enough on it's own).

Please explain, because there is something I am not getting.  Our parent service wears U.S. cutouts in different designs for officers and enlisted.

The U.S. cutouts are worn on the service dress coat. I was referring to the blue service shirt. Currently, CAP NCOs must wear C.A.P. cutouts on their shirt collars (CAP officers don't wear them). That was necessary because they wore the same chevron as Air Force NCOs. Now that they have CAP embroidered on their chevrons, there's no need for C.A.P. cutouts on the service shirt. Since Air Force NCOs don't wear any either, that puts our NCOs on par with the Air Force (with regards to collar insignias).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Got it.  I thought you were referring to the service coat.  My mistake.

[NM SAR]

As a reply to the original post, I'd like to reassign the senior and master GT badges to GTM-2 and GTM-1, and make a different badge altogether for GTL and GBD. I feel that those who earn GTM-2 or -1 should have a badge to show it.