Senior Members who Know It All; or Stop being obnoxious

[abdsp51]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

[Pylon]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

To be fair, I know we say this a lot to cadets as a way to prompt them towards self-sufficient learning, but when it comes specifically to matters from CAPM 39-1 I think quite a bit of latitude is deserved here.  We have quite a few adults who can't make heads or tails of the outdated regulation, the litany of assorted ICL's, some expired, plus any possible wing supplements of which some are and some are not published online and none of which are published in the same location.

[LSThiker]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

This is why we (CAP) should try and keep CAPM 39-1 up to date rather than use ICLs.  It can get confusing for members when there large changes not officially incorporated into the manual.  After all, how long did it take to the get the Blue BDUs incorporated into the manual.  The addition of the US flag and removal of wing patches from the blues and optional from BDUs should have prompted a rewrite of CAPM 39-1.

When your ICL from 2012 says that a phase out date was in 2006, that should send up red flags. 

Now I am not saying we should push out significantly different manuals, but simply include only the new relevant information and move on.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

To be fair, I know we say this a lot to cadets as a way to prompt them towards self-sufficient learning, but when it comes specifically to matters from CAPM 39-1 I think quite a bit of latitude is deserved here.  We have quite a few adults who can't make heads or tails of the outdated regulation, the litany of assorted ICL's, some expired, plus any possible wing supplements of which some are and some are not published online and none of which are published in the same location.

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

[jeders]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

To be fair, I know we say this a lot to cadets as a way to prompt them towards self-sufficient learning, but when it comes specifically to matters from CAPM 39-1 I think quite a bit of latitude is deserved here.  We have quite a few adults who can't make heads or tails of the outdated regulation, the litany of assorted ICL's, some expired, plus any possible wing supplements of which some are and some are not published online and none of which are published in the same location.

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC/A1C, knowing the uniform manual was expected.

[Pylon]

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC and now, I'd rather a cadet knew how to be a good NCO and focused on learning the material for his or her next achievement rather than minutiae of uniforms.  Knowing where the manual is and how to read it?  Great. Move on.  For anything more complicated than the basics, if you're unsure, ask someone.  Which the OP did.  Notice the OP specifically said he already looked in 39-1 for the answer, but still had questions.  That's okay.

What's not okay is for a C/CMSgt to come in and say "Hey, how many inches should my chevrons be from the edge of the collar?" without having looked into CAPM 39-1.  Because that's a clear cut and dried issue and the answer is there.


Do you understand the difference?


In case not, I'm going to be a little more clear this post: lay off the OP and stop being curmudgeons.  You're not that salty.

[LSThiker]

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC/A1C, knowing the uniform manual was expected.

Okay, so he looked in CAPM 39-1 and it says "on the right shoulder".  However, he sees cadets wearing it on the left shoulder.  He also sees cadets from older pictures wearing it on the right shoulder "in lieu of the US patch".  So he is asking a question to clarify what he is seeing vs. what he is reading.

I would not say that this cadet does not know the manual, but is rather confused by a rather outdated portion of the manual that needs updating.  He is asking a clarifying question to ensure he has the right details and is not missing something, which he obviously was missing the ICL.   

[jeders]

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC/A1C, knowing the uniform manual was expected.

Okay, so he looked in CAPM 39-1 and it says "on the right shoulder".  However, he sees cadets wearing it on the left shoulder.  He also sees cadets from older pictures wearing it on the right shoulder "in lieu of the US patch".  So he is asking a question to clarify what he is seeing vs. what he is reading.

I would not say that this cadet does not know the manual, but is rather confused by a rather outdated portion of the manual that needs updating.  He is asking a clarifying question to ensure he has the right details and is not missing something, which he obviously was missing the ICL.

Right, but considering that the ICL, or Uniform Manual Letter, is posted with 39-1 on the national website, it makes sense to check that before coming to CAPTalk to ask for clarification. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that this cadet is actually trying to learn why something is done instead of just accepting "because so-and-so said" as an acceptable reason. But when you've reached the highest enlisted rank and have been in CAP for as long as that requires, you need to be able to look in more than one place in one reg for your answers before asking for help.

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC and now, I'd rather a cadet knew how to be a good NCO

Couldn't agree with you more. But part of being a good SNCO is knowing EVERYwhere to look for something. If the letter didn't exist or was buried in some obscure place, I would agree that coming here is more than acceptable. But it's posted on the web with the uniform manual. This is a clear cut and dried issue and the answer is right there on the national website. But rather than taking a few more minutes to look at the letter, it seems that this cadet gave up and took the easy way out.

[SarDragon]

Just to be clear on this, there is currently only ONE ICL. The still current parts of the older ones were consolidated into one, and all the others were taken off the web.

[LSThiker]

Just to be clear on this, there is currently only ONE ICL. The still current parts of the older ones were consolidated into one, and all the others were taken off the web.

Actually there are two ICLs albeit the other does not apply here.

But when you've reached the highest enlisted rank and have been in CAP for as long as that requires, you need to be able to look in more than one place in one reg for your answers before asking for help.

.

Oddly enough, I would expect that from senior members as well. However, it seems that when a SM posts essentially the same question, it gets answered without the "I would expect more from X" comments. A person asked about the direction of rank on a flight suit, which is also pretty clear.  Oddly enough I did not see any "I expect more" comments.

Why is it that we put cadet to such a high standard but when it comes to SM we do not. Of course this is not always true but talking in generalities. The leaders of cadets should be upheld to the highest standards.  Unless the leaders have met the standard, do not expect the subordinates too.

I know some will respond that I also expect the same from SM and what not. I am not talking about individuals but rather talking about the organization. I have also heard the well the cadet program is military oriented while the SM program is not. 

[HGjunkie]

Side note, this thread is a beautiful example of why CAPTalk is widely regarded as a poisonous environment.

[Pylon]

Side note, this thread is a beautiful example of why CAPTalk is widely regarded as a poisonous environment.

And which is why I am splitting off these posts into a thread about how much CAPTalkers want to be crusty debbie downers, angry with the world, and followed around by their own personal black rain cloud.

[Eclipse]

Side note, this thread is a beautiful example of why CAPTalk is widely regarded as a poisonous environment.

And which is why I am splitting off these posts into a thread about how much CAPTalkers want to be crusty debbie downers, angry with the world, and followed around by their own personal black rain cloud.

Holding cadets to the expectations of their grade?

This cadet has never been a member in a CAP world with a single source of uniform information. 

Does he also have one grade insignia on his collar and a wing patch on his blues?  How about a flag on his BDUs?

At a minimum, if a Chief doesn't know how to config his uniform, that is a failing of his local leadership.

Our uniforms are not complicated.  Members just can't be bothered.

From the OP, it sounds like there's any number of levels in his unit or wing that need course correction.

[Pylon]

Our uniforms are not complicated.  Members just can't be bothered.

Our uniforms might only be mildly complicated once you move past the absolute bare minimums.  But are you really going to argue that the uniform manual, the version of CAPM 39-1 that we've had for years now, isn't complicated, sometimes vague, and members of all ranks have at some point had to ask questions of clarification to figure out what's correct?

...

...and the regs we have are a mess - so not only don't we have a uniform, what we do have is confusing, at best, for new members.

The whole thing is written in a very confusing manner.I was referring to 39-1 and the interchangeable use of the word "badges" vs. "Devices".

CAP is a complicated beast, not easily fully understood until you've been in for a while and seen pieces of the larger whole.

Perhaps when those remarks are made, you might suggest that they assist in supporting making our uniform situation less...complicated.Granted, the situation has evolved over 20-30 years, and the "hows" and "whys" are complicated, but the fixes could be quick and simple.

It also contributes significantly to our churn - new members come in the door excited to get started, ask what to the average person ar simply questions, and the answers are "complicated, conflicting, or simply incorrect".

This looks to be another of those areas where 39-1 missed something or made assumptions.

[Eclipse]

Well played, however not all those comments are in regards to uniforms or 39-1, so not really relevent.
Also, a C/Chief is far from "new". However in this case, nothing asked was nuanced or conflicting.

39-1 is a mess, but not for the average person who isn't trying to look like a NASCAR driver.

For the average member, wearing the average uniform, and not adding a bunch of wing or activity-specific items,
it's not that big of a deal.

And I stand by the statement that this is a failing of his leadership, since clearly there are others waling around with issues
and no one is correcting them, and/or he didn't feel he could just ask his Commander.

[HGjunkie]

All of those comments were taken out of threads where the subject was specifically about Uniforms or 39-1.

Treating a cadet (cadet officer in this case) poorly because of a regulation that has more patches and even more texas-sized holes than the world's largest block of swiss cheese is abhorrent, and quite disrespectful. I have seen countless times where there are nuances and contradictions in the 39-1 which leads to even senior cadets in the program (and plenty of senior members) to have to argue and try to figure out what the verbiage is trying to tell us. Then, in another thread today, a SM asks a well-meaning question of a similar caliber and gets nothing but constructive responses. There is a cultural issue on this site where a decent chunk of the regular posters try to blow off cadets who come here for help (maybe their chain didn't know or they wanted a different point of view), while the others actually try to point them in the right direction and give a well-thought out explanation other than "Well you're a Chief, how dare you come ask for help."

This isn't an issue specific to that thread, certain members on this site, or even about uniforms in general; every time without fail whenever a cadet comes here, there will always be a reply posted like clockwork with a message similar to "Look it up yourself" or "Ask someone else." It's unprofessional and unbecoming of an officer, but most importantly unbecoming of a decent human being.

[raivo]

Side note, this thread is a beautiful example of why CAPTalk is widely regarded as a poisonous environment.

I've observed over the years that this kind of behavior is prevalent in CAP in general; CAPtalk just amplifies it (much like any other Internet forum) through relative anonymity.

[AngelWings]

It's a simple issue and not related to CAP. Some adults just don't like to or cannot positively interact with children. I've seen it before in CAP and in the real world. It's also a lot of hypocrisy about respect because if you ever dared to tell them to look things up, they'd be up in arms about how you're disrespectful. A lot of negative members here forget the golden rule. They also forget that they don't have to respond to questions or comments. Then they try to excuse their comments with remarks about how this is CAP, and it's pointed out here in this obscure text, and you're irresponsible for asking, and so on.

Same thing in real life. It's hard to take most of them seriously.

[LSThiker]

This isn't an issue specific to that thread, certain members on this site, or even about uniforms in general; every time without fail whenever a cadet comes here, there will always be a reply posted like clockwork with a message similar to "Look it up yourself" or "Ask someone else." It's unprofessional and unbecoming of an officer, but most importantly unbecoming of a decent human being.

Agreed.  Out of curiosity, how many cadets are truly active posters vs the number of SM that post?  If I were a cadet that posted a question and received "I would expect more from a C/CMSgt" or "look it up in the regulation", why would I want to return?  Does not this eventual defeat the purpose of forums like CAPTalk and Cadetstuff (now defunct).

I have always wondered if it would help the organization if we were to require CP officers to take a teen behavioral/psychology elearning course.

[abdsp51]

Since my post has stirred so much on the topic, how about this. 

To many times cadets especially senior cadets come here looking for answers and wanting someone to give them the answer instead of researching it or asking their own leadership the question.  In this case 39-1 and the ICL is clear cut on the placement of patches.  This is the philosophy of "feed a man to fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for life."  Sorry but a senior Phase II cadet and up should know by that point in the program how to look up the information they seek, how to interpret them.  There is nothing with holding someone to a standard.  Cadets need to learn how to look the information up and not take the easy way out. 

And no it would not help the organization to require CP officers to have a teen behavioral or psychology course,  that is like requiring all SM who pursue the officer track to have a degree. 

I have helped quit a few cadets in the short time I have been back and that's been based off what I have brought to the table.  WIWAC I was held to a high standard by both programs,  in my current employment I am held to a high standard.  As much as I rarely will agree with Eclipse on things this is a leadership failure with the cadets leadership.  They should have been the first source of info after reading 39-1 and the associated  ICLs

Now I do not claim to be a know it all by any aspects but I have read the applicable regs when it comes to my specialty track and I know where to find the answers that I seek and if not I ask the SMEs on it.  I guess holding cadets to a standard is wrong...

[LSThiker]

And no it would not help the organization to require CP officers to have a teen behavioral or psychology course,  that is like requiring all SM who pursue the officer track to have a degree. 

No it is not.  A 1-hour eLearning course similar to the Level 1 courses is nothing like requiring CAP officers to have a degree.

Sorry but a senior Phase II cadet and up should know by that point in the program how to look up the information they seek, how to interpret them.  There is nothing with holding someone to a standard.

You missed what HGJunkie and I said.  Why is not that same standard being held to senior members that ask the same question.  In all honesty, any SM beyond the first 6 months in the program should already know how to look up answers in regs.  To quote you "Cadets [and Seniors] need to learn how to look the information up and not take the easy way out."  But cadets are not necessarily treated like that.  Cadet seem to be jumped on quickly.

[HGjunkie]

I guess holding cadets to a standard is wrong...

There's not an issue with holding cadets to a standard.

However, this is the better way to handle these situations:

[Clueless cadet question]
"What kind of boots can I wear with my BDUs?"

[Tactful Senior Member post]
"You can wear black leather boots, or jungle boots with green canvas on the sides. If you are unsure of anything regarding uniforms, please consult CAPM 39-1 and the 2012 ICL published on capmembers.com."

[Tim Medeiros]

I agree a tactful response is required in most cases.  However, HGjunkie, would you expect a question like the one you posted from a Mitchell cadet?  Likely a cadet who has conducted uniform inspections?  That is what abdsp51 is trying to get at.

I also agree, that there is a double standard on this board.  However the primary reason I see that is with a cadet, there is a set single promotion standard, you can tell on average the responsibility of a cadet (as defined by the leadership expectations NHQ has published) and approximately the minimum time a cadet has been in the program just by looking at their collar or shoulder.  For a SM, you can't, plain and simple, the only exceptions being O-6 and above.  So most people I've seen on here treat seniors with those similar questions like that because we have NO CLUE how long they've been in unless they specifically advertise such in their post and/or signature.

[abdsp51]

Oh I see now because i didn't sugar coat and say pretty please nicey nice about it is the real issue.  And LSThiker I would have said the same thing to a senior member asking the same question.  And sorry a 1 hour e learning course is not enough to be proficient in dealing with teens at all. 

Sorry but a cadet senior NCO and cadet officer should know where to research all avenues looking for information besides taking the easy way out. 

Sorry but one can be tactful and expect more out of senior cadets than take the easy way out.

[HGjunkie]

I agree a tactful response is required in most cases.  However, HGjunkie, would you expect a question like the one you posted from a Mitchell cadet?  Likely a cadet who has conducted uniform inspections?  That is what abdsp51 is trying to get at.

No, but that's what the PM system is for. Embarrassing someone for the sake of "should've known better" on a forum is counterproductive and asinine. I mean, even I'm still learning certain nuances about different activity patches (certain combinations of patches can't be worn at the same time apparently due to the wording of 39-1; something I never would have guessed was an issue), and I'm entering Phase IV. Things slip through the cracks, confusion ensues, and sometimes the manual isn't as easily comprehendible by a 15 year old as it is by a 50 year old.

[raivo]

Embarrassing someone for the sake of "should've known better" on a forum is counterproductive and asinine.

It is also a routine practice in CAP. I don't know why, but there's a significant population within CAP that gets off on being right when other people are "wrong."

[AngelWings]

The amount of people who take themselves too seriously here is rather hilarious

[HGjunkie]

I'd also like to point out that whenever this happens, no consequence of public image or even corporate/Air Force image is given a fleeting thought. We have Military Officers, non-CAP members, and even the National Commander browsing this board. What does it say to those people when some senior members take the liberty of "educating" a cadet about how they should not have asked a question?

It doesn't present a good image. I'm a proud Guardsman of Civil Air Patrol, and it'll be a snowy day in Florida before I see people regard CAP as toxic due to this forum.

[SarDragon]

The difference in responses is the same as the difference between a "seasoned" cadet approaching the Mitchell award, and a new senior member assembling a uniform for the first time.

In the first case, there is a reasonable expectation of prior knowledge; in the second, there is not.

[MSG Mac]

I would expect any member Cadet or Senior who's been in CAP long enough to be an Officer or Senior NCO to know how to find a regulation. years ago the only way to access the regulations, manuals, etc. was to get a subscription from National HQ. Today anyone can read, download, or print the information needed. maybe what we need at the local levels is a class on how E-services works and what is available there.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'd also like to point out that whenever this happens, no consequence of public image or even corporate/Air Force image is given a fleeting thought. We have Military Officers, non-CAP members, and even the National Commander browsing this board. What does it say to those people when some senior members take the liberty of "educating" a cadet about how they should not have asked a question?

It doesn't present a good image. I'm a proud Guardsman of Civil Air Patrol, and it'll be a snowy day in Florida before I see people regard CAP as toxic due to this forum.

Get off the high horse. I was also once the saviour of the standard as a cadet. No one cares.

A cadet with 1+ years in CAP has seen the uniforms worn hundreds of times. Has a commander and a CoC at the unit. Should at least know where to look beyond Ctrl+F key words that don't always work.

[Panache]

Side note, this thread is a beautiful example of why CAPTalk is widely regarded as a poisonous environment.

"[darn] kids!  Get off my CAPTalk's lawn!"

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Those who know everything are quite an annoyance to those who do.

In my personal opinion, CT can be, but is not always, toxic in some of the tones of the conversations.  When it gets that way, I butt out for a while because I am just as capable and culpable as anyone else in contributing to such an atmosphere.

That said, I always say that the only silly/stupid question is the one you don't ask.

Maybe what we need at the local levels is a class on how E-services works and what is available there.

Not the worst idea I've found today.  Sometimes the "deeper" functions of it confuse me.

[Panache]

Those who know everything are quite an annoyance to those who do.

In my personal opinion, CT can be, but is not always, toxic in some of the tones of the conversations. 

Ironically enough, they were just ripping on CAPTalk in one of the Facebook CAP groups on it being so unfriendly and vicious, especially if you're a cadet.  One person flat-out said "If you're a cadet, whatever you do, don't ask anybody on CAPTalk a question."

[AngelWings]

Those who know everything are quite an annoyance to those who do.

In my personal opinion, CT can be, but is not always, toxic in some of the tones of the conversations. 

Ironically enough, they were just ripping on CAPTalk in one of the Facebook CAP groups on it being so unfriendly and vicious, especially if you're a cadet.  One person flat-out said "If you're a cadet, whatever you do, don't ask anybody on CAPTalk a question."

I remember seeing a few of the personal user names on here being mentioned, too. It's funny, the descriptions of the posters mentioned seem to be accurate.

[abdsp51]

From what I have seen usually a cadet gets this perceived bashing in the uniform part of the board.  The other categories a question is asked it is answered.  Uniform questions get the reaction because a cadets leadership should be teaching them how to fish and look up the info and not allowing them to take the easy way out.  Most uniform questions are a cadet trying to take the easy way and have the answer handed to them.

[Alaric]

I'd also like to point out that whenever this happens, no consequence of public image or even corporate/Air Force image is given a fleeting thought. We have Military Officers, non-CAP members, and even the National Commander browsing this board. What does it say to those people when some senior members take the liberty of "educating" a cadet about how they should not have asked a question?

It doesn't present a good image. I'm a proud Guardsman of Civil Air Patrol, and it'll be a snowy day in Florida before I see people regard CAP as toxic due to this forum.

Not much you can do about how other people see things.  I'd rather the Military Officers, non-CAP members and National Commander see things as they are as opposed to how they may like them to be.  The truth is there is alot in CAP that is toxic as the result of small mindedness, empire building, and politicking.  Welcome to the human race and almost every organization out there.  You want to change it, go for it. 

[VNY]

Not much you can do about how other people see things.  I'd rather the Military Officers, non-CAP members and National Commander see things as they are as opposed to how they may like them to be.  The truth is there is a lot in CAP that is toxic as the result of small mindedness, empire building, and politicking.  Welcome to the human race and almost every organization out there.  You want to change it, go for it.

Almost?  Though granted, CAP has more than the average.  With money out of the picture as a motivating factor, it ramps up all the other reasons.

[Eclipse]

Ironically enough, they were just ripping on CAPTalk in one of the Facebook CAP groups on it being so unfriendly and vicious, especially if you're a cadet.  One person flat-out said "If you're a cadet, whatever you do, don't ask anybody on CAPTalk a question."

Yes, because Facebook is such a beacon of discourse and civility.

In most cases, the people who have the least "fun" here are the ones who want to "tell us a question", or are trying to
get support for some wrong assertion or incorrect interpretation that they know is probably 1/2-baked before they start typing.

That or they are telling tales they shouldn't be and then get indignant when we don't come to their aid or side of the 1/2-story.

[Eclipse]

I'd rather the Military Officers, non-CAP members and National Commander see things as they are as opposed to how they may like them to be.

Bam, right there.

[abdsp51]

I'll add this as well.  If a phase II and up cadet cannot handle being held to an expectation and someone telling them they expected more out of them based on their grade, then they will be in for a rather rude awakening when they enlist in the military, join law enforcement,  enter business, or even enter politics.  They are not always going to be treated with kid gloves and tact will not always be used.   

[AngelWings]

I'll add this as well.  If a phase II and up cadet cannot handle being held to an expectation and someone telling them they expected more out of them based on their grade, then they will be in for a rather rude awakening when they enlist in the military, join law enforcement,  enter business, or even enter politics.  They are not always going to be treated with kid gloves and tact will not always be used.   

But is it acceptable for them to treat you with no tact and with no kid gloves? I've seen cadets do what you're saying is okay, and it never ends up with anyone saying it's acceptable for them to act that way because in the real world it is that way.

[abdsp51]

I'll add this as well.  If a phase II and up cadet cannot handle being held to an expectation and someone telling them they expected more out of them based on their grade, then they will be in for a rather rude awakening when they enlist in the military, join law enforcement,  enter business, or even enter politics.  They are not always going to be treated with kid gloves and tact will not always be used.   

But is it acceptable for them to treat you with no tact and with no kid gloves? I've seen cadets do what you're saying is okay, and it never ends up with anyone saying it's acceptable for them to act that way because in the real world it is that way.

You are missing the point.

  1) I would not ask a cadet a question in regards to something where I know and there is the expectation that I know where to look to find the answers I seek.  If I can not find it in the publication, I look in the supplement if there is one.  If I need clarification on it or still have a question I ask my CoC.  That is what should have happened here and didn't. 

2) I respect the cadets I come across, but I am not always going to cater to them, placate them, or play nicey nice when dealing with them.  A Phase II cadet especially one who holds the grade of C/CMSgt should know how to thoroughly research the resources available to them to the fullest extent possible. 

3) I don't expect to be treated with kid gloves by anyone, if a cadet wants to tell me I am full of it behind close doors with another SM present more power to them.  I can respect a cadet who has the courage to stand up and say something irregardless of how they say it. 

4) The majority of teenagers these days have no idea what tact and kid gloves are due to the norm in society that they are to be catered to and have a sense of entitlement. 

So sorry, but I call it like I see it and I do not sugar coat, if the baby is ugly the baby is ugly, and that is the reality of the world.

[a2capt]

Ironically enough, they were just ripping on CAPTalk in one of the Facebook CAP groups on it being so unfriendly and vicious, especially if you're a cadet.  One person flat-out said "If you're a cadet, whatever you do, don't ask anybody on CAPTalk a question."

Yet, funny that many cadets ask questions here. I think you'll find the ones posting that are some of the very same that also had major attitude issues in general, and were called on it.

[AngelWings]

I'm not missing the point you're making, I'm missing the logic behind your attitude. I understand you're not going to ask a cadet a question that you can find the answer to. I agree with not giving special treatment to cadets. From what you wrote you don't like being called out in front of people, so what's your problem with just messaging people on here and not posting this? I agree wholeheartedly. I deal with those types of people weekly if not daily.

We both agree on not sugar coating things. I think we both can agree that we like hearing the real truth. So, with that being said...

I highly doubt you are being forced to address people on here. You can choose to ignore posts and comments. Everyone here is not required to comment on posts. More so, if it is a problem, have you brought it up with the mods? If you find it an issue, push for it to be in the Membership Code of Conduct. If it becomes written law, feel free to enforce it. If the mods feel like it isn't an issue and therefore acceptable, than ignore the posts and move on. We probably both agree that "Actions speak louder than words." so advocate for these posts

You're free to voice your opinion while adhering to the Membership Code of Conduct. Also, you don't need to be sarcastic. It comes off hostile and there's no reason to be hostile over such a trivial subject such as this. None of my comments are intended to be hostile.

[abdsp51]

I'm not missing the point you're making, I'm missing the logic behind your attitude. I understand you're not going to ask a cadet a question that you can find the answer to. I agree with not giving special treatment to cadets. From what you wrote you don't like being called out in front of people, so what's your problem with just messaging people on here and not posting this? I agree wholeheartedly. I deal with those types of people weekly if not daily.

We both agree on not sugar coating things. I think we both can agree that we like hearing the real truth. So, with that being said...

I highly doubt you are being forced to address people on here. You can choose to ignore posts and comments. Everyone here is not required to comment on posts. More so, if it is a problem, have you brought it up with the mods? If you find it an issue, push for it to be in the Membership Code of Conduct. If it becomes written law, feel free to enforce it. If the mods feel like it isn't an issue and therefore acceptable, than ignore the posts and move on. We probably both agree that "Actions speak louder than words." so advocate for these posts

You're free to voice your opinion while adhering to the Membership Code of Conduct. Also, you don't need to be sarcastic. It comes off hostile and there's no reason to be hostile over such a trivial subject such as this. None of my comments are intended to be hostile.

You are missing the point and the logic.  This goes back to what I have been saying about teaching to fish and not fishing for them.  And I said that if a cadet wants to say something behind closed doors and be honest about it and not use tact then so be it.  I do not have an issue with people commenting on posts or even the creation of this thread.  I voice my opinion and I do so within guidelines.  I can tell that if that same question is posed during BMT/Boot Camp then I can guarantee that the DI/TI will not be as kind as I was. 

[KarlIceman]

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC and now, I'd rather a cadet knew how to be a good NCO and focused on learning the material for his or her next achievement rather than minutiae of uniforms.  Knowing where the manual is and how to read it?  Great. Move on.  For anything more complicated than the basics, if you're unsure, ask someone.  Which the OP did.  Notice the OP specifically said he already looked in 39-1 for the answer, but still had questions.  That's okay.

What's not okay is for a C/CMSgt to come in and say "Hey, how many inches should my chevrons be from the edge of the collar?" without having looked into CAPM 39-1.  Because that's a clear cut and dried issue and the answer is there.


Do you understand the difference?


In case not, I'm going to be a little more clear this post: lay off the OP and stop being curmudgeons.  You're not that salty.

What about Senior or Officer Members Major and above who do not know how to wear a USAF Style uniform properly.
For those of you who may have attended the 2013 NSC you know what I am referring about.  It took a week of reminding some members as to what the proper undershirt was authorized with the short sleeved blue shirt.....

[abdsp51]

What about Senior or Officer Members Major and above who do not know how to wear a USAF Style uniform properly.
For those of you who may have attended the 2013 NSC you know what I am referring about.  It took a week of reminding some members as to what the proper undershirt was authorized with the short sleeved blue shirt.....

Then they should have been dismissed from the course and sent home.

[Eclipse]

What about Senior or Officer Members Major and above who do not know how to wear a USAF Style uniform properly.
For those of you who may have attended the 2013 NSC you know what I am referring about.  It took a week of reminding some members as to what the proper undershirt was authorized with the short sleeved blue shirt...

At the NSC level, no one should need correcting on uniforms, protocol, or any other Level I issues.

NSC is supposed to be preparing Lt Cols for national service.  If you can't wear the uniform correctly by Level IV, you're pretty much cooked.

[LSThiker]

NSC is supposed to be preparing Lt Cols for national service.  If you can't wear the uniform correctly by Level IV, you're pretty much cooked.

I would say more like after 6 months into the program.  I mean if we expect cadets to know how to wear the uniform by the time they reach phase II, then I would definitely say seniors should know how to wear the uniform by 6 months, especially if it is the corporate service uniform.  If they do not know how to wear it by the time they reach 1st Lt (or equivalent time in CAP), then they are cooked.

[Eclipse]

I agree 100%.  Appearance and bearing should absolutely be considered for promotions and even some visible staff roles.

It's both shocking and no longer surprising how poorly some people with oaks dress, or even understand the program they
supposedly want to be a leader in.

[LSThiker]

or even understand the program they
supposedly want to be a leader in.

Do I detect a bit of a jab in there? 

[KarlIceman]

What about Senior or Officer Members Major and above who do not know how to wear a USAF Style uniform properly.
For those of you who may have attended the 2013 NSC you know what I am referring about.  It took a week of reminding some members as to what the proper undershirt was authorized with the short sleeved blue shirt...

At the NSC level, no one should need correcting on uniforms, protocol, or any other Level I issues.

NSC is supposed to be preparing Lt Cols for national service.  If you can't wear the uniform correctly by Level IV, you're pretty much cooked.


Those were the thoughts of many in attendance but who were we to bring about discipline?

[Eclipse]

or even understand the program they
supposedly want to be a leader in.

Do I detect a bit of a jab in there? 

Honestly, no.

[Alaric]

or even understand the program they
supposedly want to be a leader in.

Do I detect a bit of a jab in there? 

Honestly, no.

Dont you sleep?

[a2capt]

Between posts.

[NIN]

Agreed.  Out of curiosity, how many cadets are truly active posters vs the number of SM that post?  If I were a cadet that posted a question and received "I would expect more from a C/CMSgt" or "look it up in the regulation", why would I want to return?  Does not this eventual defeat the purpose of forums like CAPTalk and Cadetstuff (now defunct).

To be fair: We had our fair share of that over on CadetStuff, too.

Every 30-60 days, you'd get a pop up: "Hey, I wanna wear [a beret|boonie|cord|CIB|CMB|RAAAANGER! Tab|My Uncle's Vietnam-awarded Purple Heart|whatever]."

After awhile, it becomes ... tiring ... to repeat the same answer over and over (trust me, it does).

So after the 93rd time, you start saying "Could you do a quick search before you post something like this?"

Now, lets face it: 13-15 year old cadets are not about the "long game."  They want a direct, immediate, authoritative and factual answer to their specific question right NOW.   "I can't be bothered to look this up, ask my local leadership, or think for myself. You please do it for me."

Eventually, folks stop seeing forums as places "to get their questions answered." (you can get questions answered in forums, but it requires a fair amount of engagement and discourse, not just hit and run "Gimme an answer.")

Eventually, Facebook will become the same way as people get sick of folks asking the "You Know You're in CAP When..." group similar questions.  (but there is not the same level of institutional knowledge/history that is searchable there, so the phrase "Search is your friend" isn't a player)

BTW, CadetStuff is technically not "Defunct"

[GroundHawg]

What about Senior or Officer Members Major and above who do not know how to wear a USAF Style uniform properly.
For those of you who may have attended the 2013 NSC you know what I am referring about.  It took a week of reminding some members as to what the proper undershirt was authorized with the short sleeved blue shirt...

At the NSC level, no one should need correcting on uniforms, protocol, or any other Level I issues.

NSC is supposed to be preparing Lt Cols for national service.  If you can't wear the uniform correctly by Level IV, you're pretty much cooked.

My favorite is when I'm looking through photos on CAP websites and find flagrantly and blatantly incorrect uniforms. They are almost always Maj and Ltc's....

I don't know why, its just my observation.