Senior Members who Know It All; or Stop being obnoxious

[abdsp51]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

[Pylon]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

To be fair, I know we say this a lot to cadets as a way to prompt them towards self-sufficient learning, but when it comes specifically to matters from CAPM 39-1 I think quite a bit of latitude is deserved here.  We have quite a few adults who can't make heads or tails of the outdated regulation, the litany of assorted ICL's, some expired, plus any possible wing supplements of which some are and some are not published online and none of which are published in the same location.

[LSThiker]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

This is why we (CAP) should try and keep CAPM 39-1 up to date rather than use ICLs.  It can get confusing for members when there large changes not officially incorporated into the manual.  After all, how long did it take to the get the Blue BDUs incorporated into the manual.  The addition of the US flag and removal of wing patches from the blues and optional from BDUs should have prompted a rewrite of CAPM 39-1.

When your ICL from 2012 says that a phase out date was in 2006, that should send up red flags. 

Now I am not saying we should push out significantly different manuals, but simply include only the new relevant information and move on.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

To be fair, I know we say this a lot to cadets as a way to prompt them towards self-sufficient learning, but when it comes specifically to matters from CAPM 39-1 I think quite a bit of latitude is deserved here.  We have quite a few adults who can't make heads or tails of the outdated regulation, the litany of assorted ICL's, some expired, plus any possible wing supplements of which some are and some are not published online and none of which are published in the same location.

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

[jeders]

I would expect a C/CMSgt to be versed in 39-1 to know the answer to this question and to know where to find it....

To be fair, I know we say this a lot to cadets as a way to prompt them towards self-sufficient learning, but when it comes specifically to matters from CAPM 39-1 I think quite a bit of latitude is deserved here.  We have quite a few adults who can't make heads or tails of the outdated regulation, the litany of assorted ICL's, some expired, plus any possible wing supplements of which some are and some are not published online and none of which are published in the same location.

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC/A1C, knowing the uniform manual was expected.

[Pylon]

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC and now, I'd rather a cadet knew how to be a good NCO and focused on learning the material for his or her next achievement rather than minutiae of uniforms.  Knowing where the manual is and how to read it?  Great. Move on.  For anything more complicated than the basics, if you're unsure, ask someone.  Which the OP did.  Notice the OP specifically said he already looked in 39-1 for the answer, but still had questions.  That's okay.

What's not okay is for a C/CMSgt to come in and say "Hey, how many inches should my chevrons be from the edge of the collar?" without having looked into CAPM 39-1.  Because that's a clear cut and dried issue and the answer is there.


Do you understand the difference?


In case not, I'm going to be a little more clear this post: lay off the OP and stop being curmudgeons.  You're not that salty.

[LSThiker]

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC/A1C, knowing the uniform manual was expected.

Okay, so he looked in CAPM 39-1 and it says "on the right shoulder".  However, he sees cadets wearing it on the left shoulder.  He also sees cadets from older pictures wearing it on the right shoulder "in lieu of the US patch".  So he is asking a question to clarify what he is seeing vs. what he is reading.

I would not say that this cadet does not know the manual, but is rather confused by a rather outdated portion of the manual that needs updating.  He is asking a clarifying question to ensure he has the right details and is not missing something, which he obviously was missing the ICL.   

[jeders]

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC/A1C, knowing the uniform manual was expected.

Okay, so he looked in CAPM 39-1 and it says "on the right shoulder".  However, he sees cadets wearing it on the left shoulder.  He also sees cadets from older pictures wearing it on the right shoulder "in lieu of the US patch".  So he is asking a question to clarify what he is seeing vs. what he is reading.

I would not say that this cadet does not know the manual, but is rather confused by a rather outdated portion of the manual that needs updating.  He is asking a clarifying question to ensure he has the right details and is not missing something, which he obviously was missing the ICL.

Right, but considering that the ICL, or Uniform Manual Letter, is posted with 39-1 on the national website, it makes sense to check that before coming to CAPTalk to ask for clarification. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that this cadet is actually trying to learn why something is done instead of just accepting "because so-and-so said" as an acceptable reason. But when you've reached the highest enlisted rank and have been in CAP for as long as that requires, you need to be able to look in more than one place in one reg for your answers before asking for help.

WIWAC/CMSgt, knowing the uniform manual was an expectation.

WIWAC and now, I'd rather a cadet knew how to be a good NCO

Couldn't agree with you more. But part of being a good SNCO is knowing EVERYwhere to look for something. If the letter didn't exist or was buried in some obscure place, I would agree that coming here is more than acceptable. But it's posted on the web with the uniform manual. This is a clear cut and dried issue and the answer is right there on the national website. But rather than taking a few more minutes to look at the letter, it seems that this cadet gave up and took the easy way out.

[SarDragon]

Just to be clear on this, there is currently only ONE ICL. The still current parts of the older ones were consolidated into one, and all the others were taken off the web.

[LSThiker]

Just to be clear on this, there is currently only ONE ICL. The still current parts of the older ones were consolidated into one, and all the others were taken off the web.

Actually there are two ICLs albeit the other does not apply here.

But when you've reached the highest enlisted rank and have been in CAP for as long as that requires, you need to be able to look in more than one place in one reg for your answers before asking for help.

.

Oddly enough, I would expect that from senior members as well. However, it seems that when a SM posts essentially the same question, it gets answered without the "I would expect more from X" comments. A person asked about the direction of rank on a flight suit, which is also pretty clear.  Oddly enough I did not see any "I expect more" comments.

Why is it that we put cadet to such a high standard but when it comes to SM we do not. Of course this is not always true but talking in generalities. The leaders of cadets should be upheld to the highest standards.  Unless the leaders have met the standard, do not expect the subordinates too.

I know some will respond that I also expect the same from SM and what not. I am not talking about individuals but rather talking about the organization. I have also heard the well the cadet program is military oriented while the SM program is not. 

[HGjunkie]

Side note, this thread is a beautiful example of why CAPTalk is widely regarded as a poisonous environment.

[Pylon]

Side note, this thread is a beautiful example of why CAPTalk is widely regarded as a poisonous environment.

And which is why I am splitting off these posts into a thread about how much CAPTalkers want to be crusty debbie downers, angry with the world, and followed around by their own personal black rain cloud.

[Eclipse]

Side note, this thread is a beautiful example of why CAPTalk is widely regarded as a poisonous environment.

And which is why I am splitting off these posts into a thread about how much CAPTalkers want to be crusty debbie downers, angry with the world, and followed around by their own personal black rain cloud.

Holding cadets to the expectations of their grade?

This cadet has never been a member in a CAP world with a single source of uniform information. 

Does he also have one grade insignia on his collar and a wing patch on his blues?  How about a flag on his BDUs?

At a minimum, if a Chief doesn't know how to config his uniform, that is a failing of his local leadership.

Our uniforms are not complicated.  Members just can't be bothered.

From the OP, it sounds like there's any number of levels in his unit or wing that need course correction.

[Pylon]

Our uniforms are not complicated.  Members just can't be bothered.

Our uniforms might only be mildly complicated once you move past the absolute bare minimums.  But are you really going to argue that the uniform manual, the version of CAPM 39-1 that we've had for years now, isn't complicated, sometimes vague, and members of all ranks have at some point had to ask questions of clarification to figure out what's correct?

...

...and the regs we have are a mess - so not only don't we have a uniform, what we do have is confusing, at best, for new members.

The whole thing is written in a very confusing manner.I was referring to 39-1 and the interchangeable use of the word "badges" vs. "Devices".

CAP is a complicated beast, not easily fully understood until you've been in for a while and seen pieces of the larger whole.

Perhaps when those remarks are made, you might suggest that they assist in supporting making our uniform situation less...complicated.Granted, the situation has evolved over 20-30 years, and the "hows" and "whys" are complicated, but the fixes could be quick and simple.

It also contributes significantly to our churn - new members come in the door excited to get started, ask what to the average person ar simply questions, and the answers are "complicated, conflicting, or simply incorrect".

This looks to be another of those areas where 39-1 missed something or made assumptions.

[Eclipse]

Well played, however not all those comments are in regards to uniforms or 39-1, so not really relevent.
Also, a C/Chief is far from "new". However in this case, nothing asked was nuanced or conflicting.

39-1 is a mess, but not for the average person who isn't trying to look like a NASCAR driver.

For the average member, wearing the average uniform, and not adding a bunch of wing or activity-specific items,
it's not that big of a deal.

And I stand by the statement that this is a failing of his leadership, since clearly there are others waling around with issues
and no one is correcting them, and/or he didn't feel he could just ask his Commander.

[HGjunkie]

All of those comments were taken out of threads where the subject was specifically about Uniforms or 39-1.

Treating a cadet (cadet officer in this case) poorly because of a regulation that has more patches and even more texas-sized holes than the world's largest block of swiss cheese is abhorrent, and quite disrespectful. I have seen countless times where there are nuances and contradictions in the 39-1 which leads to even senior cadets in the program (and plenty of senior members) to have to argue and try to figure out what the verbiage is trying to tell us. Then, in another thread today, a SM asks a well-meaning question of a similar caliber and gets nothing but constructive responses. There is a cultural issue on this site where a decent chunk of the regular posters try to blow off cadets who come here for help (maybe their chain didn't know or they wanted a different point of view), while the others actually try to point them in the right direction and give a well-thought out explanation other than "Well you're a Chief, how dare you come ask for help."

This isn't an issue specific to that thread, certain members on this site, or even about uniforms in general; every time without fail whenever a cadet comes here, there will always be a reply posted like clockwork with a message similar to "Look it up yourself" or "Ask someone else." It's unprofessional and unbecoming of an officer, but most importantly unbecoming of a decent human being.

[raivo]

Side note, this thread is a beautiful example of why CAPTalk is widely regarded as a poisonous environment.

I've observed over the years that this kind of behavior is prevalent in CAP in general; CAPtalk just amplifies it (much like any other Internet forum) through relative anonymity.

[AngelWings]

It's a simple issue and not related to CAP. Some adults just don't like to or cannot positively interact with children. I've seen it before in CAP and in the real world. It's also a lot of hypocrisy about respect because if you ever dared to tell them to look things up, they'd be up in arms about how you're disrespectful. A lot of negative members here forget the golden rule. They also forget that they don't have to respond to questions or comments. Then they try to excuse their comments with remarks about how this is CAP, and it's pointed out here in this obscure text, and you're irresponsible for asking, and so on.

Same thing in real life. It's hard to take most of them seriously.

[LSThiker]

This isn't an issue specific to that thread, certain members on this site, or even about uniforms in general; every time without fail whenever a cadet comes here, there will always be a reply posted like clockwork with a message similar to "Look it up yourself" or "Ask someone else." It's unprofessional and unbecoming of an officer, but most importantly unbecoming of a decent human being.

Agreed.  Out of curiosity, how many cadets are truly active posters vs the number of SM that post?  If I were a cadet that posted a question and received "I would expect more from a C/CMSgt" or "look it up in the regulation", why would I want to return?  Does not this eventual defeat the purpose of forums like CAPTalk and Cadetstuff (now defunct).

I have always wondered if it would help the organization if we were to require CP officers to take a teen behavioral/psychology elearning course.

[abdsp51]

Since my post has stirred so much on the topic, how about this. 

To many times cadets especially senior cadets come here looking for answers and wanting someone to give them the answer instead of researching it or asking their own leadership the question.  In this case 39-1 and the ICL is clear cut on the placement of patches.  This is the philosophy of "feed a man to fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for life."  Sorry but a senior Phase II cadet and up should know by that point in the program how to look up the information they seek, how to interpret them.  There is nothing with holding someone to a standard.  Cadets need to learn how to look the information up and not take the easy way out. 

And no it would not help the organization to require CP officers to have a teen behavioral or psychology course,  that is like requiring all SM who pursue the officer track to have a degree. 

I have helped quit a few cadets in the short time I have been back and that's been based off what I have brought to the table.  WIWAC I was held to a high standard by both programs,  in my current employment I am held to a high standard.  As much as I rarely will agree with Eclipse on things this is a leadership failure with the cadets leadership.  They should have been the first source of info after reading 39-1 and the associated  ICLs

Now I do not claim to be a know it all by any aspects but I have read the applicable regs when it comes to my specialty track and I know where to find the answers that I seek and if not I ask the SMEs on it.  I guess holding cadets to a standard is wrong...