Flight Officer Status

[SARDOC]

With the introduction of the new revamped NCO program where the grade would be recorded at National Headquarters, Is there any reason why NHQ still won't record the Grade of those flight officers.   I would figure that with eServices that it wouldn't be that difficult to record the grade for the few flight Officers that we have to ensure a continuity of the promotion process.

[RiverAux]

 A strong and vibrant NCO program is critical to the future of CAP and we must do everything we can to make sure they get recognized for what they may have done 40 years ago.   Flight Officers are just cadets by another name and don't deserve to have their ranks recorded.       

[Please note extreme sarcasm]

[bosshawk]

Sarcasm noted: good night.

[MSG Mac]

I wish they would record FO grades. It's so easy to fudge dates to make a FO a 1Lt or even a Captain when he turns 21. 

[a2capt]

How so? It's all based on the last cadet grade held, which is absolutely recorded.

[arajca]

Not if the member joins at 19.

[PHall]

They can track cadet promotions on e-services, Flight Officer grades should be no problem.

[SARDOC]

How so? It's all based on the last cadet grade held, which is absolutely recorded.

Not all flight officers are former cadets.  Even if they were, based on their cadet achievement they will be advanced...but if they are a flight officer they are eligible for promotion before coming over to the dark side.  I just think that the justification for not recording the Flight Officer Grades doesn't apply any more.

[Eclipse]

...if they are a flight officer they are eligible for promotion before coming over to the dark side.

If they are a Flight Officer, they are already on the Dark Side.

[SARDOC]

...if they are a flight officer they are eligible for promotion before coming over to the dark side.

If they are a Flight Officer, they are already on the Dark Side.

Maybe I should have qualified it as the Even Darker side.

[Eclipse]

Black like coal, sucks all energy it can find.

[a2capt]

I still don't see the problem. Time in grade is .. time in grade. FO means you're in eServices as SM already, it means there's a max of 36 months that is tracked at the unit level. If you entered as a cadet and flipped, that's easy. Otherwise, you start at your join date and go forward. Six months... that's easy, that's the join date. The rest, if it happens like clockwork, and the PD is done, you move on. All things themselves that are recorded in eServices, and when that promotion is put it at age 21, it's all sorted out.

If the system is gamed, there's hardly any advantage, and there's things recorded that will back it up, including rosters where grade may be written by the member themselves.

If they're going to pull shenanigans.. chances are they're not the ideal member anyway and will get caught somehow. But there's too many things that happen in parallel. Even things like newsletter/articles will come back to get you.

[Bayareaflyer 44]

What's wrong with going old school with the paper CAPF 2?  I've had some recent under 21 year-olds, non-cadet types - and that's how I kept track.

Straying a bit off topic, but, my biggest issue with the FO grades (and this coming from someone who was one many moons ago) is the TIG differences between the FO grades and the standard officer track.  Note the differences in the CAPR 35-5 figure 2 (for regular officer) and figure 8 (for FO).  Seems to me that a newb at age 19 could easily become a SFO and ultimately a Capt at age 21 with a minimal amount of time (21 months vs 36).

[THRAWN]

Buuut...you can't become a captain unless you've been a cadet, in that instance.

What's wrong with going old school with the paper CAPF 2?  I've had some recent under 21 year-olds, non-cadet types - and that's how I kept track.

Straying a bit off topic, but, my biggest issue with the FO grades (and this coming from someone who was one many moons ago) is the TIG differences between the FO grades and the standard officer track.  Note the differences in the CAPR 35-5 figure 2 (for regular officer) and figure 8 (for FO).  Seems to me that a newb at age 19 could easily become a SFO and ultimately a Capt at age 21 with a minimal amount of time (21 months vs 36).

[Bayareaflyer 44]

Buuut...you can't become a captain unless you've been a cadet, in that instance.

In terms of cadet transitions, I think that is what the "Special Provisions", figure 9 is for.  The way I have always interpreted 7-4(b) figure 8 to be is the minimum TIG for those (regardless of starting point as a transitioning cadet) working through the FO grades.

Anyway, not to hijack the original intent of the thread, but, I just always found the discrepancy to be odd.  Of course, I could have completely misinterpreted it 

[THRAWN]

I'm going off of personal experience as well as the reg. I joined as a SM, wore FO and TFO and when I turned 21....was a second looie...35-5 is so full of charts that ref each other that it's no wonder that this comes up and goes in circles every now and again...

Buuut...you can't become a captain unless you've been a cadet, in that instance.

In terms of cadet transitions, I think that is what the "Special Provisions", figure 9 is for.  The way I have always interpreted 7-4(b) figure 8 to be is the minimum TIG for those (regardless of starting point as a transitioning cadet) working through the FO grades.

Anyway, not to hijack the original intent of the thread, but, I just always found the discrepancy to be odd.  Of course, I could have completely misinterpreted it 

[MSG Mac]

join at 18: 3 months + level 1= FO
                 6 months + Tech rating = TFO
                  1 year + Davis Award= SFO
1 year 3 months as SFO + 3 months as 1Lt= Captain

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Bring on the brickbats, but I have long thought that the cadet side should end at the 18th birthday, period.

I have found that many, many cadets who hang on until 21 do so just so they can continue to hang with their cadet friends.

At 18 they should be moved into the F/O grades.  At 18 they are legally adults so their status in CAP should reflect that.  If they've got their Mitchell, they automatically get F/O, otherwise they are SMWOG.

My first squadron produced a Spaatz, she hung on until 21, became a Captain and then I rarely saw her again, though I think she became an officer in the Air Force.  She told me she hated the transition, and that she now outranked me (I was a 1st Lt at the time), and she rapidly lost interest in CAP.

Yes, some will say keep the 21-cutoff so a cadet can have a chance to earn his/her Spaatz.  I do not believe the two are related.

I was in the BSA after becoming a Cub Scout at age 8.  I went through WEBELOS into Boy Scouts.  I was, in succession, an Assistant Patrol Leader, Patrol Leader, Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader and Junior Assistant Scoutmaster, with a sash full of merit badges and a belt full of the noisy, clanking metal "skill awards."  However, I finished as a Life Scout.  I could blame my turning 18 for not getting my Eagle, but the fact is that other things took precedence in my life.  Girls, being in a rock band, girls, my first car, girls, growing my long hair, girls, hanging with my metalhead friends, and...girls.  The fact that I didn't get my Eagle was my fault and mine alone.  Extending the age to 21 would not have meant a thing in my case.

I have always found the 18-21 cadet status illogical.  They have to take CPPT...yet they are cadets themselves.  They are legally adults...yet CAP still treats them as "children."

[LSThiker]

What's wrong with going old school with the paper CAPF 2?  I've had some recent under 21 year-olds, non-cadet types - and that's how I kept track.

Straying a bit off topic, but, my biggest issue with the FO grades (and this coming from someone who was one many moons ago) is the TIG differences between the FO grades and the standard officer track.  Note the differences in the CAPR 35-5 figure 2 (for regular officer) and figure 8 (for FO).  Seems to me that a newb at age 19 could easily become a SFO and ultimately a Capt at age 21 with a minimal amount of time (21 months vs 36).

Oddly enough, the FO grades and the officer grades do not line up. 

While most people like to think of the ranks equaling this:

FO = 2d Lt
TFO = 1st Lt
SFO = Capt

That is not the case unless you were a cadet.

According to CAPR 35-5:

Promotion to 1st Lt is 12 months as a 2d Lt or TFO
Promotion to Capt is 18 months as a 1st Lt or SFO

So if a person is a SFO and reaches 21, they should turn 1st Lt unless they earned the Spaatz or they are promoted to Capt due to 18 months as SFO.  It appears that FO does not get you anything in terms of promotion time. 

However, to complicate the matters, the minimum skill level are almost equal:

FO = Level 1 + 3 months = 2d Lt but requires 6 months
TFO = Tech Rating + 6 months FO = 1st Lt but with 12 months 2d Lt/TFO
SFO = Level II + 12 months TFO = Captain but with 18 months as 1st Lt/SFO

[Bayareaflyer 44]

That is my exact point - the TIG and grade progressions do not match between FO and non-FO grades.  Now, it could be as Thrawn's experience where a non-former cadet progresses through the FO grades with the noted TIGs in CAPR 35-5 figure 8, and when 21 is not given an advanced "commensurate" grade, but rather starts at 2d Lt (which would be weird, since the TFO gets you the Davis).

I know when I was a TFO when this program first started, nobody knew what to do with someone like me, so this makes me a little sympathetic to those in the same situation.

Anyway, this will be good fodder to throw at the Knowledge Base to see what National's official position on this is.