NESA caps

[lordmonar]

I've learned not to ask why or to get into that are you kool conversation. Let his leadership Handel it. 

[Spaceman3750]

I wear mine where the "CAP Ballcap" is authorized to be worn. So in my BBDUs and polo. Nobody really makes any issue about it.

[lordmonar]

Never ever ever said on a whim. I said there was a time place and way to violate them

Actually, you did not say that on your first post, which started this discussion. On each post, you continue to suggest that CAP unit commanders have additional authority to "violate" regulations that they just don't have. This is not an argument about safety or cadet protection or nothing similar. This is about a baseball cap. How does that fall under those "time"/"place" situations on which you claim it's acceptable for a unit commander to "violate" regulations?

Everyone in CAP has "authority" to violate regulations.   That is they can decide to follow them or not.   Whether they "get away" with it is based on the situation, the violation, the reason they violated it, how they violated it, what sort of mitigations they put in place, what sort of actions they took to try to follow the reg before the violation.

My point is....and always has been.......if I were to violate a regulation, it is up to my chain of command to deal with it.....not you, no anyone else out there in CAP land....only my chain of command.   

I never said it is always acceptable for anyone to violate a regulations.....I said that there is a time, place and way to violate them.  Now we can spend the next 10 years spinning theoretical scenarios all day long....but that will get us nowhere beyond just having fun with thought experiments.

Suffice to say.......In my 22 years on AD and in my 11 years in CAP...there have been many times where I have violated regulations with malice aforethought.....and I know that I will have to violate them again before I am done.

When I do violate them....I don't care what you thing about it.....I care what my chain of command thinks about it.

[Larry Mangum]

The answer to his question is rather an easy one. Per the Alabama Wing Commander, NO hat with the  exception of the blue beret, worn or provided by a national activity can be worn within the wing, per his memo, dated 20 May 2013. However, he has since then decided that WESS staff can wear NESA hats to distinguish them from the students.

[Luis R. Ramos]

So, what does WESS stands for?

Wing Emergency Services School?

Flyer

[Storm Chaser]

Everyone in CAP has "authority" to violate regulations.   That is they can decide to follow them or not.   Whether they "get away" with it is based on the situation, the violation, the reason they violated it, how they violated it, what sort of mitigations they put in place, what sort of actions they took to try to follow the reg before the violation.

You're confusing authority with ability. Someone with your years of experience should know the difference.

The answer to his question is rather an easy one. Per the Alabama Wing Commander, NO hat with the  exception of the blue beret, worn or provided by a national activity can be worn within the wing, per his memo, dated 20 May 2013. However, he has since then decided that WESS staff can wear NESA hats to distinguish them from the students.

Thanks for this clarification.

Case closed...unless Lordmonar believes unit commanders have the"authority" to disobey their wing commanders and "violate" their directives.

So, what does WESS stands for?

Wing Emergency Services School?

Yes.

[lordmonar]

If the situation calls for it.

I stand by my original statement......there is a time, place and way to violate regulations.

If I do violate them....then the leaders in MY chain of command will/should take the appropriate actions to correct or discipline me for that violation.

If my subordinate violate regulations on my orders....then I bear the responsibility for that violation not my subordinates.

None of this changes my statements to the OP.......if in doubt ask your commander.   

As for not knowing the difference between authority and ability.....like you said....with my experience I have lived in this zone many times.  Both in making the decision to "No...we are going to ignore this reg....let's move on" and being on the receiving end of such and order.  Me: "Sir we can't do XYZ due to AFI ABC"  Commander: "Noted, Proceed".

We choose our leaders for their ability to do what leaders are supposed to do.....get the mission done.  We often (in CAP and the USAF) enter areas where regulations conflict, are not clearly written or hamper the mission.   We expect our leaders to make wise decisions to accomplish the mission.   Sometimes that is to ignored the published regulations.

Now we are just talking about a silly hat.     IN ALWG there is published guidance on what hat to wear......this cadet could not find anything in 39-1 so I suggested he contact his commander, who one would hope, knew about ALWG's policy letter.

If a squadron commander in ALWG allowed his people to wear NESA hats....then it is up to the ALWG CC to correct this commander.

Like I said before......we expect everyone to follow the regulations.....but we also charge our leaders to get the mission done.   Sometimes.....they can't do both.  We expect them to use good judgment, seek assistance, use mitigation efforts, etcetera, to accomplish assigned missions.

That is all that I am saying.   I'm not saying that commanders are free to do what they want, I am not saying that you just ignore regulations.  I am saying that we expect our leaders to be leaders and accomplish their assigned missions.

[Storm Chaser]

Maybe it's not what you're saying, but the way you're saying it.

[Eclipse]

My point is....and always has been.......if I were to violate a regulation, it is up to my chain of command to deal with it.....not you, no anyone else out there in CAP land....only my chain of command.   

Seriously, you say that all the time like it's relevent in an academic conversation about regulations on a public forum where no one has authority over anyone else.

There's one universal truth, which stands above all man-made writ and regulations, and just below the laws of physics.

Specifically,   "Anyone, can do anything...once."

However, being able to "get away with something" because either no one knows, or no one cares is not the same as possessing some
sort of Great Knowledge or experiential force power to know when it is OK to violate CAP regulations.

It's never OK, unless you're talking about a situation that involves saving life or property, at which point an IG or even a judge may make the final decision.

If it's in the context of a uniform discussion, or administrative process, it's never OK.

Ne.

Ver.

And the point where you realize that your decision or behavior, either via commission or omission, violates a regulation,
is the point where that behavior should be adjusted to conform, not continue under the auspices if "I know better."
"I don't care what you think.", or "You're not in my chain", or "I know better." doesn't change that.

When CAP as both an organization, and individuals, comes back around to understanding that, we'll all be better off.

[Luis R. Ramos]

In another thread, readers were making the connection of "now there is a push on sergeants, the organization will be better since the sergeants are the experts," "can teach D&C better than others as they are experts in that topic..." On and on.

Here we are having a discussion difference of opinion between a Master Sergeant and other members. I hope this does not carry into real life when we get that many more members sporting stripes.

Flyer

[lordmonar]

Flyer....I made the same arguments when I was sporting Major Oak Leaves.....so yes and no this is relevant to the implementation of the CAP NCO corps.

Eclipse.....I have been talking is generalities about authority, and when and how to violate regulations.

YES......in a basic uniform situation......I can only see a few situations in CAP where we should violate regulations.....and most of them have to do with either safety (i.e. wearing an appropriate civilian jacket with the uniform) or if it is a case of direct mission failure....(i.e. allowing your only available mission pilot to fly in civilian cloths instead of delaying the mission 2 hours for him to get his flight suit).

But....these are prime examples of what I am talking about.  There are times and ways to violate regulations.
And when they do come....the only people who matter are the ones in chain of command.....not the commander from another squadron, not the commander from another wing, not the commander from another region.

So as I said before.....to tie back into the OP's question.......he should ask his commander for clarification/authorization on any unclear regulations.

[Eclipse]

or if it is a case of direct mission failure....(i.e. allowing your only available mission pilot to fly in civilian cloths instead of delaying the mission 2 hours for him to get his flight suit).

Not within the scope of a unit CC, nor even an IC.

Not something I would do without at least a Wing CC's approval, if not national - "we're all friends until someone loses an eye..."

[lordmonar]

or if it is a case of direct mission failure....(i.e. allowing your only available mission pilot to fly in civilian cloths instead of delaying the mission 2 hours for him to get his flight suit).

Not within the scope of a unit CC, nor even an IC.

Not something I would do without at least a Wing CC's approval, if not national - "we're all friends until someone loses an eye..."

That's acceptable for me....like I said...there is a time and way to violate a regulation....sometimes the way to do it is...."we got to get this up to the IC or Wing or National"...sometimes it's "let's just do it".....it all depends on the situation.

[Eclipse]

When does CAP ever operate in a "no time for back up, shoulder roll in the window..." mode?

Never.

It's part of the equation, and "making like Nike" is what usually gets people in trouble.

[lordmonar]

When does CAP ever operate in a "no time for back up, shoulder roll in the window..." mode?

Never.

It's part of the equation, and "making like Nike" is what usually gets people in trouble.

I guess that works for you.  I hope you communicate that with your subordinates.
As I said sometime you take the risk yourself...sometimes you up channel it....sometimes you just say, "nope we're going home".  It all depends on the situation.

[CadetAlpha]

Going back to the OP, why is it necessary to wear a different cap than the rest of the squadron? Because you're kool? Because you're better than the others in your unit? I think that's the reason they aren't allowed in the first. Put your fancy cap on your dresser as a reminder of your good time there, and move on.

I have never attended NESA. I do not own the hat. I am not partial to the hat. I certainly do not think of myself as being "kool" or better than any other cadet either.

The answer to his question is rather an easy one. Per the Alabama Wing Commander, NO hat with the  exception of the blue beret, worn or provided by a national activity can be worn within the wing, per his memo, dated 20 May 2013. However, he has since then decided that WESS staff can wear NESA hats to distinguish them from the students.

Lt Col Mangum, I am fully aware of ALWG Policy Number 13-01 and all it entails, I just didn't know if there was any form of address from National about it, sir.

Bottom line everyone, I'm not trying to be insubordinate to my commander, I'm not trying to look cool, I am simply trying to find what I asked about: if National authorizes, in any publication, the wear of NCSA headgear (excluding the Blue Beret) for wear at the squadron level.

[SarDragon]

Simply put - they do not.

[CadetAlpha]

Simply put - they do not.

Thank you sir.