Military Academies

[Blackhawk]

I have friends who are interested in joining CAP (aged between 12-15) and have aspirations of going onto a Military Academy, i.e. West Point, Annapolis, Air Force, etc.  Does anyone know if or what benefits there are from being in CAP that lend to getting into an academy?  Does anyone know of examples of where being in CAP helped?  Thanks!

[bosshawk]

If you look around on CT, you will find a number of discussions on this subject.

I happen to be a Admissions Representative for West Point and I can tell you that being a CAP cadet is some help in the Admissions Committee evaluating your participation in extra-cirricular activities in High School.  It is highly regarded by most Admissions Committee reps, but it isn't a guarantee of anything.  It is important to know that the admissions decision at West Point is based 65% on academics, 10% on athletics and physical fitness  and 25% on extra-cirricular activities.  Being in student government, being elected to officer positions in your class and/or clubs is likely more important than anything that you do in CAP.

If you want to help your cadets, get them in touch with people like me who work in the Admissions Programs all the time.  I have been involved, off and on, since 1976, so I have a bit of knowledge.

If you want more info, PM me.

[lordmonar]

CAP does help.

The board looks at thing other then just school.

They look at what you did in extracurricular activities and what leadership potential did you display in those activities.
As no one gets an after board brief about what they liked or disliked about an individual applicant it is hard to say if CAP was ever the one thing that put the cadet through the door......but I have talked to several people who sat on these boards and do the in-field interviews and they all agree that they look favorably on CAP and CAP leadership when making their decisions.

[ironputts]

I have the honor of assisting many CAP cadets in applying and getting accepted to our military academies in the 20+ years in Civil Air Patrol. This year we had a cadet enter the Naval Academy. My colleagues above stated what is needed and they are dead on. I would just like to add that intellectual ability in a education environment and motivation to participate in extra-curricular activities are key to catch the eyes of the board when there is many exceptional applicants to review. Breaking it down do well in school grades, class ranking, and test scores (SAT ACT). Participate in school and outside organizations in a leadership role. They want thinkers and motivators. I always enjoy seeing our former cadets return as first year academy cadets and see their pride on their faces. Many say CAP helped prepare them for the attitude necessary to succeed in that environment. In the end it is a cumulation of what you have inside you and the desire to be the best leader possible that brings you to the doors of the academies. GOOD LUCK!

[Critical AOA]

During HS, I was Cadet Commander of my CAP squadron and president of my high school chess club.  I did real well on the SAT.  Unfortunately, my grades were not as good as they could have been so I did not get into either West Point or the AF Academy.  Luckily, the money I saved up from working part time jobs during the summer and school year along with student loans helped to pay for my years at Purdue.  Of course, if I had studied more rather than working so much and doing CAP stuff, my grades would most likely have been better.  So, my advice would be to study hard and get good grades.  The extracurricular stuff matters not if your grades suffer.

[bosshawk]

David: as you became painfully aware, all three aspects of gaining admission to one of the service academies need to be top-level: Academics, sports and extra-cirricular.  A weakness in any one of the three will guarantee that you will not be selected.  I deal with a significant number of young people each year who don't believe me.  Just for the record, I have sent more than 275 young people to West Point during my tenure in the Admissions arena.  The competition is intense and often painful for those who don't make it.  I had two young men this past year who had all of the qualifications and didn't gain admission: they simply ran into the numbers.  West Point had over 15,000 files opened last year and admitted about 1200 in the Plebe Class.  The other academies had roughly similar numbers.

The nation is fortunate in that the service academies attract a large number of the best and brightest.

[Private Investigator]

I have friends who are interested in joining CAP (aged between 12-15) and have aspirations of going onto a Military Academy, i.e. West Point, Annapolis, Air Force, etc.  Does anyone know if or what benefits there are from being in CAP that lend to getting into an academy?  Does anyone know of examples of where being in CAP helped?  Thanks!

You will get a lot of great information here. Welcome aboard CAP Talk and have fun.   :clap:

[Private Investigator]

So, my advice would be to study hard and get good grades.  The extracurricular stuff matters not if your grades suffer.

That is true. When I was in boot camp for the Marines I was called out and nominated for the Naval Academy. But a really weak G.P.A., even with four Varsity letters in football and track could not make up for bad grades. I think everybody has heard of Montel Williams. That is how he got to the Naval Academy.

[Walkman]

I have two cadets from a former unit that were accepted to the academies (AF & Navy). As I think on them now, it's interesting to compare the two.

AFA: Cadet commander got Mitchell earlier so he was an cadet officer for a while; led color guard to NCC; Aims to be an astronaut, so very high grades in STEM area; ran cross country (in fact, set a record at NCC for the mile); went to flight academy & got his solo wings.

USNA: Wants to be Marine Infantry officer. More athletic, was cadet commander, but not an officer for very long. Smart kid, but classes & grades at the level as the AFA cadet. Very into GSAR and graduation from PJOC, was also on NCC CG team. Had a more military demeanor.

What the two had in common, though, was character and attitude. Both worked hard, both were trustworthy. Both of them aimed high and had an attitude of achievement. Despite their difference, they were the kind of teens every parent, teacher and leader points to and says "I wish more teens could be like them".

[Private Investigator]

What the two had in common, though, was character and attitude. Both worked hard, both were trustworthy. Both of them aimed high and had an attitude of achievement. Despite their difference, they were the kind of teens every parent, teacher and leader points to and says "I wish more teens could be like them".

I have noted that too in our exceptional Cadets; character and positive attitude = success   :clap: 

[Flying Pig]

So, my advice would be to study hard and get good grades.  The extracurricular stuff matters not if your grades suffer.

That is true. When I was in boot camp for the Marines I was called out and nominated for the Naval Academy. But a really weak G.P.A., even with four Varsity letters in football and track could not make up for bad grades. I think everybody has heard of Montel Williams. That is how he got to the Naval Academy.

You were nominated for the Naval Academy while you were in boot camp?

[dogboy]

I have friends who are interested in joining CAP (aged between 12-15) and have aspirations of going onto a Military Academy, i.e. West Point, Annapolis, Air Force, etc.  Does anyone know if or what benefits there are from being in CAP that lend to getting into an academy?  Does anyone know of examples of where being in CAP helped?  Thanks!

I'm sure I'm a minority opinion here but I always tell prospective academy applicants to think long and hard about whether the academy lifestyle is really for them. It's four long years of intense [redacted - mod] and the education is really not as good as one would receive at a high-quality university.

Before financial aid became widely available (the late 1960s), the military academies were chosen by smart, poor kids who had few alternatives. In contrast, these days at the college I teach at (which is top tier) if you get in, and your family income is under $100,000, you'll get a complete free ride so the academies don't have the draw they used to.

However,  if you want to fly in the military, except the Army, there are so few slots that academy graduation is practically the only route. Also, of course, if you want to make the military your career, being a "ring-knocker" yields tremendous advantages.

[SarDragon]

So, my advice would be to study hard and get good grades.  The extracurricular stuff matters not if your grades suffer.

That is true. When I was in boot camp for the Marines I was called out and nominated for the Naval Academy. But a really weak G.P.A., even with four Varsity letters in football and track could not make up for bad grades. I think everybody has heard of Montel Williams. That is how he got to the Naval Academy.

You were nominated for the Naval Academy while you were in boot camp?

It's possible. I was sent to a presentation about the Academy when I was in boot camp, but somebody dropped the ball when doing the preliminary checks, and didn't realize that I was disqualified because of my vision. I got there just as the presentation started, and didn't come under scrutiny until they turned the lights back on. Some Chief saw me and asked what I was doing there. I told him my Company Commander told me to be there, at their request. After verifying my vision deficiency, he sent me on my way.

[Tim Day]

However,  if you want to fly in the military, except the Army, there are so few slots that academy graduation is practically the only route. Also, of course, if you want to make the military your career, being a "ring-knocker" yields tremendous advantages.

Being a ring-knocker offers no career advantages in today's military. The commission is the same, and so is the rate of selection to General or Flag Officer. At least in the Navy, pilot slots are distributed among ROTC and USNA grads.

So do think long and hard about attending a Service Academy: have your own reasons for going or not, but don't expect any automatic advantages after commissioning (graduation). 

[Майор Хаткевич]

^+1

I keep hearing that AFA is pretty much the only way to fly. I know, from a limited pool of people, 3 that got flight slots out of ROTC. harder? Maybe. But not impossible.

[SunDog]

Justb FYI - the Coast Guard has an Academy, as well. Like the other schools, no cake-walk - a tough four years. You'll get a free education of some quality and a guaranteed job upon graduation. But the "free" part comes with a tough haul. If you're organized (or can get organized) and socially and emotionally mature, with some self-confidence, you can get through. Lot's of people do. IMHO, the service academies are pretty good schools, and the networking that starts there will serve you well.

If you want to fly, ROTC may be the way to go, if the idea of Academy life doesn't suit you. Per a previous poster, some flying slots (at least Navy/Marines) are reserved for ROTC & Academy grads.  But not all - some are open competetion, and I know some enlisted guys accepted to OCS without a guaranteed pilot slot, who still ended up in flight training.

Like a bunch of other folks said, CAP can help; but probably not in proportion to the time you'd need to accomplish something in CAP. If CAP is fun for you, then you get a bonus when you use it on your Academy application. But don't do CAP just for that reason. You can get as much cred for other volunteer activities that don't require so much time.

If your high school has JROTC, that would have about as much impact as CAP, I believe, and you'll get most of that done during school hours AND get credit on your GPA.  Get your grades and SAT scores nailed down as your base.  Assuming grades and SAT are solid, show some leadership - class officer, CAP, JROTC, Boy Scouts - and independent work; a project of your own, in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) - you don't have to invent a programming language or build a perpetual motion machine, but something that educates you, on your own intitiave. 

Good luck.   

[flyboy53]

Also don't forget the fifth military academy -- the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy -- or SUNY Maritime. The U.S. Merchant Marine Academy not only prepares is graduates for roles in the U.S. Merchant Marine, many of it's cadets are involved in Navy ROTC.

SUNY Maritime is New York's military Academy. It's cadets are also ROTC linked.

[Private Investigator]

So, my advice would be to study hard and get good grades.  The extracurricular stuff matters not if your grades suffer.

That is true. When I was in boot camp for the Marines I was called out and nominated for the Naval Academy. But a really weak G.P.A., even with four Varsity letters in football and track could not make up for bad grades. I think everybody has heard of Montel Williams. That is how he got to the Naval Academy.

You were nominated for the Naval Academy while you were in boot camp?

Actually it is "The Naval Academy Preparatory School". You do well there for a year and you get a shot at the Naval Academy.   

[SARDOC]

Also don't forget the fifth military academy -- the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy -- or SUNY Maritime. The U.S. Merchant Marine Academy not only prepares is graduates for roles in the U.S. Merchant Marine, many of it's cadets are involved in Navy ROTC.

SUNY Maritime is New York's military Academy. It's cadets are also ROTC linked.

The Great thing about the USMMA is that when they graduate they can try to Commission into any branch of the Military or if they find a Civilian job in the maritime industry they can do that for Five years in lieu of the military although they would concurrently maintain a commission as an ensign in the United States Naval Reserve.

[SunDog]

Coast Guard accepts applications from USMMA grads, as well. Acceptance used to be close to automatic, and although that's no longer the case, a solid applicant will have a very good chance of being accepted.

[SARDOC]

Coast Guard accepts applications from USMMA grads, as well. Acceptance used to be close to automatic, and although that's no longer the case, a solid applicant will have a very good chance of being accepted.

True, I've seen USMMA grads go into the Army and the Air Force as well.  It's just a matter of applying to the service of your choice and selling them on it.

[bosshawk]

I';ll have to take exception to one of Dogboys comments about the quality of the education at a service academy.  If it is so sub-par, why does West Point rank fourth in the nation in Rhodes Scholarships?  Behind the likes of Yale, Harvard and Princeton, if I remember correctly.  How many of your students take 50% of their classes in STEM even if they are majoring in English or languages.  How many of your students majoring in Engineering are required to take three semesters of a foreign language?  I could go on and on, having been an Admissions rep at USMA for over 30 years.

[flyboy53]

I have friends who are interested in joining CAP (aged between 12-15) and have aspirations of going onto a Military Academy, i.e. West Point, Annapolis, Air Force, etc.  Does anyone know if or what benefits there are from being in CAP that lend to getting into an academy?  Does anyone know of examples of where being in CAP helped?  Thanks!

I'm sure I'm a minority opinion here but I always tell prospective academy applicants to think long and hard about whether the academy lifestyle is really for them. It's four long years of intense chickens__t and the education is really not as good as one would receive at a high-quality university.

Before financial aid became widely available (the late 1960s), the military academies were chosen by smart, poor kids who had few alternatives. In contrast, these days at the college I teach at (which is top tier) if you get in, and your family income is under $100,000, you'll get a complete free ride so the academies don't have the draw they used to.

However,  if you want to fly in the military, except the Army, there are so few slots that academy graduation is practically the only route. Also, of course, if you want to make the military your career, being a "ring-knocker" yields tremendous advantages.

And I'm going to add another exception to these comments. The standards at any of the military academies are vastly higher than standard colleges -- the grade point average necessary to graduate at a military academy is what I had to maintain to earn a master's degree. I would match them up one for one to any Ivy League graduate and I can guarantee you that the Academy grad will be more motivated and determined in any field of work.

As far as flying? Not all military academy grads want to fly. I've known quite a few Air Force Academy graduates who preferred things like Security Forces or Tactical Air Control teams and then entered things like the FBI or other federal law enforcement agencies following their service commitment. As far as the flying thing. You want to fly, fine, keep your grades  up because those slots go to the cream of the crop. However, not everyone wants to be a pilot or can qualify for it. There are plenty of other rated slots to chose from.

Certainly, think long and hard about ANY college education -- whether, private, public (state or local community college) or service academy -- but also remember that you may also not meet the cut even a public school so chose wisely.

[Walkman]

Regarding flying slots in general, is the difficulty spread evenly across the airframes or are we talking just fighters? Would one have an easier time getting into a helo spot vs. F16 or tankers vs. helos?

Also, I know that army helo drivers are WOs, so it would seem to me that if one wanted to fly the Blackhawk, trying for West Point would be the wrong track. Are rotary wing pilots in the other branches the same? I know the AF doesn't have WOs, so it would seem it one wants to fly a helo, shooting for the Academy would still be a good idea because you need to be an officer.

(This in on my mind as one of my squadron mates is in the process of shifting from A-10 crew chief in the AFR to Army Blackhawk pilot. He starts WOS, SERE then pilot training next week.)

[Flying Pig]

It depends in what your goals are. Many people are interested in the career track of being a commissioned officer.   WO's do not have that. They do not hold command positions.  Pay, benefits, etc all come into play. In the Army I believe commissioned officers can resign their commission at or prior to the rank of Captain and become a WO3 if they want to continue flying vs moving on to command positions. (I think)   Where a WO would need to start at 2LT and go to OCS like any other newly commissioned officer. In addition, there are plenty of commissioned Army pilots.  Just the majority are WOs. After about the rank of Major you will see officers start to step back from flying and stepping more into command roles vs flying roles.  Now, havnt done any of the above just whats been relayed to me over the years. 

[Tim Day]

Regarding flying slots in general, is the difficulty spread evenly across the airframes or are we talking just fighters? Would one have an easier time getting into a helo spot vs. F16 or tankers vs. helos?

Typically the selection of platform type is done at the end of primary flight training. Sometimes it's by class rank in direct order, sometimes they mix it up using a quality spread (top grad chooses, then 5th, then 9th, etc). The Navy has a "carrier cut-off" meaning only the top half get to fly something with a tailhook.

Keep in mind the AF is selecting drone pilots straight out of their commissioning source.   

[bosshawk]

Just to muddy the waters, about 100-120 graduates of West Point are commissioned in the Aviation Branch each year: they all go to flight school and graduate as helicopter pilots.  Later, if they desire and the needs of the Army concur, they can transition to fixed wing aircraft.  The Army does have a few jets, but those pilots are all cream of the crop and few and far between.  I sat next to an Army Captain last Sat night and he flies RC-12s and is a 2009 grad of West Point: thus, he was selected pretty early to be a fixed wing pilot.  He is also rated in rotary wing.  You are correct: the majority of Army helicopter pilots are Warrants.

[UH60guy]

You are correct: the majority of Army helicopter pilots are Warrants.

Exactly. Though I should point out it's also a different role in the Army for warrants vs. commissioned officers. For warrants, their main job is to be a technical expert in their craft- in this case being a pilot. Commissioned officers are leaders first. Day one out of flight school, they'll typically be put in charge of about 20 Soldiers and five helicopters, and will still be expected to be proficient pilots.

Commissioned aviation officers can get other jobs as well though- I didn't fly for the first 6 months after flight school, when I was put in charge of the refuel/rearm platoon because we had too many lieutenants in the unit. Although I could argue it made me more well rounded later on too. I've seen it the other way too- I did get plenty of combat flight time while I was a maintenance platoon leader, though coordinating scheduled and unscheduled maintenance was my primary duty.

Edit: Going back to Flying Pig's comments- switching from Officer to Warrant is exceedingly rare, and it takes an awful lot to convince your boss to let you resign your commission. I've only seen it done like that when someone can't get on the promotion list.

Basically, if you're looking at Army aviation, ask yourself: Do I want to be "just" a pilot? If so, that's great- The Warrant Officer track is for you. Later in your career you'll specialize as a safety officer, instructor pilot, maintenance test pilot, or tactical operations officer, but in any specialization, being a pilot is your #1 job. Again for commissioned officers, you'll be given leadership roles and responsibility (and command) from day one throughout your career, though you're not always guaranteed being a line pilot is where you'll get your hours. You could be a headquarters company commander, but still be tasked to meet your flight minimums and fly missions.

[SarDragon]

In Naval Aviation, just about everyone who goes to flight school is a commissioned officer, with a four-year college degree.

[SunDog]

I think all Marine pilots are commissioned officers; that said, not ALL officers have undergrad degrees.

If you're walking in off the street to fly, without a degree, Go Army. If a commision is in reach, all other sevices.

Also, consider the Reserves, especially USAF; they fly the majority of USAF flight hours, or did the last time I looked, have the more experinced crews (many fled the AD for civilan jobs), and you can go directly into the Reserves from off the street, get commisioned, and on to UPT. The whole evolution will take about two-plus years, and you're full time for the whole time - pay, benes, etc.

You will have to find a unit that wants you,  so shop around.

[dogboy]

I';ll have to take exception to one of Dogboys comments about the quality of the education at a service academy.  If it is so sub-par, why does West Point rank fourth in the nation in Rhodes Scholarships?  Behind the likes of Yale, Harvard and Princeton, if I remember correctly.  How many of your students take 50% of their classes in STEM even if they are majoring in English or languages.  How many of your students majoring in Engineering are required to take three semesters of a foreign language?  I could go on and on, having been an Admissions rep at USMA for over 30 years.

The reason that the military academies get a larger than their share of Rhodes Scholarships is that academic achievement is only one of the four criteria for the award.

Here they are:

    Literary and scholastic attainments;
    Energy to use one's talents to the fullest, as exemplified by fondness for and success in sports;
    Truth, courage, devotion to duty, sympathy for and protection of the weak, kindliness, unselfishness and fellowship;
    Moral force of character and instincts to lead, and to take an interest in one's fellow beings.

Perhaps most important is the equal emphasis on sports. At most big-time universities, the athletes in major sports are basically in a farm team for the pros. They have special classes with low standards as well as tutors to push them through. I don't know which player the famous quote refers to "he could do anything with a football except autograph it" but it's representative of most big-time college athletes. Military academy athletes do get certain privileges such as tutors but they must take the same curriculum as the other students. Consequently they combine the attributes of scholar and athlete better than almost anywhere else.

Of course this explains why the the academies don't play major sports schools. Here's the USMA schedule

http://www.goarmysports.com/sports/m-footbl/sched/army-m-footbl-sched.html

which includes such football powers as Ball State and Eastern Michigan.

The other criteria such as devotion to duty and instincts to lead are also well suited to the military academy graduate.

So, I stand by my statement that the military academies do not provide the quality of education that a first-rate university does. That they receive a disproportionate number of Rhodes Scholarships does not prove otherwise.

[sentence redacted - mod]

[Private Investigator]

The reason that ...

Dude we get it. You do not like military academies. Lets move on because just like the person who swears the cup is half empty, I'll swear it is half full, saavy   

[dogboy]

The reason that ...

Dude we get it. You do not like military academies. Lets move on because just like the person who swears the cup is half empty, I'll swear it is half full, saavy   

No, you are incorrect and I don't appreciate you misquoting my posts. If you cannot contribute something constructive, don't post at all. Military academies are the right choice for a few, just a few.

[SarDragon]

Well, I got the same impression from your post.

[dogboy]

I have friends who are interested in joining CAP (aged between 12-15) and have aspirations of going onto a Military Academy, i.e. West Point, Annapolis, Air Force, etc.  Does anyone know if or what benefits there are from being in CAP that lend to getting into an academy?  Does anyone know of examples of where being in CAP helped?  Thanks!

I'm sure I'm a minority opinion here but I always tell prospective academy applicants to think long and hard about whether the academy lifestyle is really for them. It's four long years of intense chickens__t and the education is really not as good as one would receive at a high-quality university.

And I'm going to add another exception to these comments. The standards at any of the military academies are vastly higher than standard colleges --

Flyboy1 says: "And I'm going to add another exception to these comments. The standards at any of the military academies are vastly higher than standard colleges"

Flyboy1 I do not appreciate being misquoted. I said ".... and the education is really not as good as one would receive at a high-quality university" not a "standard college" as you possibly attended.

[CAPSGT]

Since this topic has derailed into a pure and simple fight to see who can insult who more, I'm locking this.  Chill out guys, watch the language, and take a step back before posting something heated before it leads to suspensions/bans.