Reducing ribbons: A proposal

[Hawk200]

A few ideas on consolidating some of our ribbons. A couple ideas are mine, the rest I've added from various ideas posted into a program type of concept for ease of use. Hopefully the outline will make sense to everyone.

1. Professional Development

• Eliminate Loening, Garber, and Wilson ribbons.
• Utilize Leadership ribbon and treat it in the same manner as the Air Force PME ribbon. Award Leadership ribbon upon completion of Level 2. For Loening (Level 3) and Garber (Level 4) awards, add a bronze Oak Leaf Cluster for each award. For Wilson (Level 5) award, add a silver star between the two oak leaf clusters (to maintain distinctiveness of the Wilson award).
• Reduces the number of ribbons for Professional  Develeopment. Specialty track badges already serve as a means of identifying individual specialty tracks, and experience in those tracks(Basic, Senior, Master).

2. Aerospace Education

• Eliminate Crossfield award.
• Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
• Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

3. Recruiter Ribbons

• Consolidate Senior Member and cadet recruiter ribbons.
• Utilize one ribbon for both, and implement a common standard for both member brackets.
• Unnecessary to maintain two separate standards.

4. Command Service

• Eliminate Command Service Ribbon.
• Mirror Air Force policy for wear of command service badge.
• Command service ribbon is unnecessary, when an existing device can be used with a policy change to denote the same accomplishment.

5. Special Activities

• Eliminate National Cadet Competition Ribbon, National Color Guard Competition Ribbon.
• Consolidate with Cadet Specialty Activity Ribbon.
• Reduction of overall ribbons. Cadet Comp, and Color Guard comp are similar activities to those listed as Special Activities.

6. Mission Related

• Eliminate Counterdrug ribbon.
• Rename Air Search and Rescue Ribbon to "Operational Missons" (or something to that effect, just a working idea), and award for either SaR or CD missions.
• Both ASaR and CD ribbon have a requirment of 10 sorties for award, or additional award. No need to have separate ribbons for the same number of required sorties for similar missions.

Overall, nine eliminated. Any other ideas? There was a couple of ribbons I thought of, but wasn't certain if eliminating was appropriate or not. Personally, I'd be willing to give up a few ribbons. Would make putting together my rack easier.

[carnold1836]

2. Aerospace Education

    * Eliminate Crossfield award.
    * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
    * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

[lordmonar]

1.  Concure...but I would just go with bronze oak leaves.....count the leaves, add one and you have what Level of PD they have completed.
2.  Completely concure....no need for AE Master rating to get its own ribbon.
3.  Concure...although IIRC they tried this before and it got shot down for some reason.
4.  Concure....infact I submitted a proposal to do just that....but it got lost in the bureaucracy.
5.  Again concure.
6.  Suggest they eliminate all mission related medals and consolidate them int one "Mission Achievement" award.  Develope criteria for x number of sorties/shifts for aircrew, ground teams and mission base personnel. (note...we will have to do some minor fixes on what is considered a mission/sortie/shift to make it a little more equatable.)


While we are at it....lets do the same thing for the cadets.  Eliminate all the achievements and just go with the Milestone awards.  Cadets will earn the current WB when the finish Achievement one and put OLCs for achievements 2-3 and the WB award. (we rename the WB to Phase I ribbon) We do the same for all the other phase ribbons.  This serves the balance between too much bling and instant gratification that is important in motivating young (and old) people.

[lordmonar]

2. Aerospace Education

    * Eliminate Crossfield award.
    * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
    * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

You also get the Master AE badge.

Also...why does AE get a special ribbon for the Master Rateing and no other specialty track does?

[afgeo4]

I agree on all points except for AE... Yeager and Crossfield awards aren't even similar. The Yeager is awarded for the completion of the senior AE program while the Crossfield is given to Aerospace Educators who've reached the master level of the specialtry track. I think awards should stay as they are, but... the AE master rating badge is quite capable of denoting the level of AE proficiency in a member. There's no need for the ribbon for the Crossfield. The yeager isn't denoted in any way on a uniform aside from the ribbon, so that should be kept.

Summary: Keep Yeager award ribbon and eliminate Crossfield award ribbon. Keep issuing both awards on paper. If a ribbon for Crossfield is absolutely necessary, authorize a Prop clasp to be placed on the Yeager ribbon and rename said ribbon to Aerospace Education ribbon.

[Hawk200]

2. Aerospace Education

    * Eliminate Crossfield award.
    * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
    * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

The Aerospace Education badge indicates basic, senior and master levels. So a ribbon for Master level is a duplication of award for the same accomplishement.

[ddelaney103]

2. Aerospace Education

    * Eliminate Crossfield award.
    * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
    * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

You also get the Master AE badge.

Also...why does AE get a special ribbon for the Master Rating and no other specialty track does?

The usual reason - somebody wanted to encourage more Master AE officers and bling is the only tool in the HR basket for a lot of people.

Kinda like the days when they started the AF NCO PME ribbon.  Originally, NCO's had a choice to go in person or by correspondence so they offered a ribbon to encourage in person PME.  Nowadays, in residence PME is mandatory so, except for the Reserve and Guard and a few AD types who got waivers, everyone gets the ribbon.

[afgeo4]

2. Aerospace Education

    * Eliminate Crossfield award.
    * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
    * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

You also get the Master AE badge.

Also...why does AE get a special ribbon for the Master Rating and no other specialty track does?

The usual reason - somebody wanted to encourage more Master AE officers and bling is the only tool in the HR basket for a lot of people.

Kinda like the days when they started the AF NCO PME ribbon.  Originally, NCO's had a choice to go in person or by correspondence so they offered a ribbon to encourage in person PME.  Nowadays, in residence PME is mandatory so, except for the Reserve and Guard and a few AD types who got waivers, everyone gets the ribbon.

Actually, there's a reverse trend developing in today's CAP. Many NCOs are encouraged to take NCOA via correspondence and I've heard that it may become waived for promotion to MSgt.

[lordmonar]

I understand the bling argument .....but they have always had a master badge.  That is what I don't understand....the double bling.

Same argument for the cadet rank/acheivment ribbons.

[ddelaney103]

2. Aerospace Education

    * Eliminate Crossfield award.
    * Utilize the standard Aerospace Education badge already in use.
    * Two separate awards are unnecessary for the same  accomplishment.

What are the two separate awards for the same accomplishment. You reach Master level in AE and you are awarded the Crossfield. Where is the other award you speak of?

You also get the Master AE badge.

Also...why does AE get a special ribbon for the Master Rating and no other specialty track does?

The usual reason - somebody wanted to encourage more Master AE officers and bling is the only tool in the HR basket for a lot of people.

Kinda like the days when they started the AF NCO PME ribbon.  Originally, NCO's had a choice to go in person or by correspondence so they offered a ribbon to encourage in person PME.  Nowadays, in residence PME is mandatory so, except for the Reserve and Guard and a few AD types who got waivers, everyone gets the ribbon.

Actually, there's a reverse trend developing in today's CAP. Many NCOs are encouraged to take NCOA via correspondence and I've heard that it may become waived for promotion to MSgt.

I don't understand - CAP doesn't promote any NCO's.

On the AF side, I haven't heard anything about pushing the NCOA correspondence, though I'm not active duty so I may be missing it.

[carnold1836]

Summary: Keep Yeager award ribbon and eliminate Crossfield award ribbon. Keep issuing both awards on paper. If a ribbon for Crossfield is absolutely necessary, authorize a Prop clasp to be placed on the Yeager ribbon and rename said ribbon to Aerospace Education ribbon.

I would definitely agree with this. And the Master rating in AE isn't exactly easy to get, there is plenty of outside (not at a CAP function) work that has to be done in the community to get to this level. I haven't personally looked what is required for other master ratings, but I would say the AE is probably in the top 3 of external duties required to attain the level.

Again though I could be wrong.

[ColonelJack]

Well, at the risk of being thought of as a damp dishtowel (or worse), let me ask this --

Why are we even discussing reducing the number of ribbons that can be earned/worn?

Officers already have the choice of wearing all, some, or none.  If you think your rack is too loaded, drop a few off.  Or don't wear any. 

This strikes me as an item that doesn't even need to be discussed.  BUT, since you brought it up ...

Don't mess with the Loening, Garber, and Wilson ribbons.  I don't know about yours, but my GRW was dog-goned hard to earn (timewise and workwise) and I think I deserve something special for it, not a little doo-dad added to a ribbon I started wearing years before.

And the Crossfield ribbon isn't the same thing as the Yeager ribbon.  Maybe we don't need a ribbon for Master AE (I have one of those too); I can go along with that.  But for some of the other suggestions, as long as the criteria for earning the ribbon (ex. Recruiter) are different for Officers and cadets, then the ribbon should be different as well.  Unless there's a change for wear of the command badge, the command service ribbon is a good idea.  As for combining cadet special activity ribbons, I'll defer my comments to those who actually do such things and let them worry about that.

Jack

[Hawk200]

Why are we even discussing reducing the number of ribbons that can be earned/worn?

Because there are many people that believe that we have too many.

Officers already have the choice of wearing all, some, or none.  If you think your rack is too loaded, drop a few off.  Or don't wear any. 

Doesn't address the issue of an excessive number.  And what manner do you use to determine what to drop? Also there are many people that believe that all ribbons should be worn, regardless of how many or few.

This strikes me as an item that doesn't even need to be discussed. 

Considering some of the responses, many have a differing outlook.

I don't know about yours, but my GRW was dog-goned hard to earn (timewise and workwise) and I think I deserve something special for it,...

My proposal is not set in stone, I'm open to suggestions to improve it. Addressing the issue, the Wilson is rather rare, so I can see maintaining that ribbon. Not many people would ever earn it, so it wouldn't be something that everyone has so they wouldn't have to be concerned about a large number.

But for some of the other suggestions, as long as the criteria for earning the ribbon (ex. Recruiter) are different for Officers and cadets, then the ribbon should be different as well. 

Why does there need to be two different standards? I've seen it take years for a senior to get a recruiter ribbon. In a moderately growing squadron, a cadet can have two other people joined up in the first year of his membership. It's a double standard for the same concept.

Unless there's a change for wear of the command badge, the command service ribbon is a good idea. 

The Command Service Ribbon could be considered a relic. It was adopted before there was a badge. Presently, a commander wears the badge, then removes it when they step down.  They still have a badge in their possession, but can no longer use it. To show command experience, you have to buy a ribbon.

The Air Force command badge policy is simple. You wear the badge over your nametag while commanding. When no longer in command, you move it to below the nametag. Nothing new to buy. Just a change in position for an item you already have.

As for combining cadet special activity ribbons, I'll defer my comments to those who actually do such things and let them worry about that.

Just another proposal. And like I said above, not set in stone. I would welcome input from those that have done those things, and their thoughts as to whether or not it would be equitable.

[Monty]

I don't know about yours, but my GRW was dog-goned hard to earn (timewise and workwise) and I think I deserve something special for it, not a little doo-dad added to a ribbon I started wearing years before.

I was going to write that but then thought, "I can't be swimming in this uniform crap like most my comrades love doing....."



Nobody's taking my GRW ribbon....how 'bout them apples?    

[ZigZag911]

Leave the ribbons alone:

1) some people actually EARNED them!
2) what would we -- or the National Board, for that matter --have left to talk about without them?!?

[Chappie]

I don't know about yours, but my GRW was dog-goned hard to earn (timewise and workwise) and I think I deserve something special for it, not a little doo-dad added to a ribbon I started wearing years before.

I was going to write that but then thought, "I can't be swimming in this uniform crap like most my comrades love doing....."



Nobody's taking my GRW ribbon....how 'bout them apples?    

Concur...the GRW award should not be relegated to a clasp.  Cadets are proud of earning the Spaatz award...and rightfully so.  Senior Members/Officers who have earned the Gill Robb Wilson are a select few in the organization and should be proud of their accomplishments.  To have the award presented by a General Officer of the USAF or CAP, or an elected State/Fed Official or some other person of distinction and then have the recepient wear a clasp on the leadership ribbon would be (IMHO) demeaning to say the least.

And besides....anyone willing to spend a week in Montgomery, AL deserves a medal 

[DNall]

I've been waiting for Mike to post his revised matrix of decorations, but I'll put in my thoughts now & work to aid him in his presentation when he's ready.

CADETS:
In general I say leave them alone. They're 12, they need regular ego boosts to retain their attention & dedication. It's no different than JROTC. Couple exceptions though:
1) Concur with combining the recruiting ribbons. Award standards don't necessarily have to be the same (particularly for subsequent devices), but the ribbon can.
2) C/Officers should cut the achievements to milestons only & wear some/none/all.
3) I can concur with consolidating to one activity ribbon, and clasps for additional activities (not repeat of the same one).

ADULTS:
My proposal is pretty simple... many AF decs are awardable to civilians & routinely are. Work with AF to streamline this recommendation process, fill in holes with new ribbons, eliminate excess.

Suggest to AF that a paragraph be added to AFI 36-2803 explaining which decorations can be awarded to CAP members for service to AF, and the recommendation routing. The beauty of this is an AF employee (state director) is the initial recipient & all decisions are kept on the with the AF; they can award or not as they see fit. Here's the key change: The echelon approval levels would be the same as the AF & the chain of command for this purpose would be as follows: State Director as Sq/CC, RegLO as Gp/CC, CAP-USAF/CC as Wg/CC, AU, AETC, CSAF, SAF. The reasons behind this are pretty straight forward: it provides increased recognition idenifiable by both sides as contribution to the AF; better aligns with our parent service; and, aids members in the military with additional recognition & career enhancement for their additional contributions.

So lets take a look at that & tell me what you think...
KEY:
Stirkethru = not awardable to CAP
Underline = not awardable to CAP, but rec SAF consider changing that as appro
Bold = Are awardable to civilians or CAP specifically & Non Combat
Italics = awardable to civilians, but requires combat
NOTE: Though inserted next to the AF equiv below, all CAP awards still come behind all mil decs!!! This is merely to demonstrate toe congurance.

MOH
AFC
DSM                             CAP Dist Svc Medal
SS                              CAP Silver Medal for Valor
Legion of Merit
DFC                            CAP Bronze Medal for Valor
Airman's Medal             Lifesaving
Bronze Star
Purple Heart
Meritorious Svc          CAP Exceptional Svc (rename CAP Meritorious Svc)       
Air Medal                      Mission Action Medal (V for single heroic acts)
Aerial Achvmt Medal
AF Commendation     CAP Meritorious Svc (rename CAP Commendation)
AF Achvmt                    Commander's Comm (rename CAP Achvmt)
Pres Unit Citation (C)      CAP Unit Citation
AF Outstanding Unit
AF Organizational Excellence
POW
Combat Readiness              Create new Mission Readiness
Reserve Merit (longevity)
Outstanding Airman of the Year   Outstanding officer "of the year" awards
AF Recognition             Create new "CAP Recognition" awardable by Sq/Gp
(Campaign medals)
National Defense Svc Medal
(Campaign medals)
Armed Forces Svc Medal (?)
Humanitarian Svc
Mil Outstanding Volunteer Svc
(Overseas long/short)
Longevity                         Rename Red Service "Longevity Ribbon"
BMT Instructor                  AE Instructor Ribbon  Activities Ribbon
Recruiting Duty                      Recruiting Service
Armed Forces Reserve
NCO PME                    Professional Development ribbon (devices for level)
BMT Honor Grad
Marksmanship             Awardable for pistol qual only, on AF range w/ AF inst.
AF Training                  Awardable for completion of SOS, ACSC, or AWC
(campaign medals)

Above awards explained:
Mission Action Medal: Takes the place of SaR, DR, HLS, CN, O-pilot, & find; like the Air Medal, it can be awarded for single acts of courage in mission performance (designated w/ "V") or for sorties like the current range of ribbons.

CAP Unit Citation: Is what it is now & less important than the two higher AF unit awards

Mission Readiness: Continuous Maint of ES qual as mission pilot/observer, GTL, or higher over a 3 year period. Also requires active in ES, not just on paper. Additional award for each three year period.

Outstanding Officer "of the year" award ribbon: For selection as Wg/Reg/Nat officer of teh year within a designated specialty. Ribbon for Wg, triangle/oak leaf for Reg, stars for Nat, no multiple awards in the same year from dif echelons.

CAP Recognition Ribbon: Similiar in requirement to the AF version, this may be awarded at the Sq or Gp level for exceptional performance not meriting a commander's commendation. CC's will be limited on the number they can award per year base on unit size - under 20 active adults = 1 award, under 50=2, under 75=3, under 100=4. This is basically the internal Sq or Gp member of the year award.

AE Instructor = Yeager, bronze prop for instructor course, silver prop for crossfield

Activities = Takes the place of five ribbons, can be awarded for designated Wg/Reg events (encampment, CAC, RCLS, Flight Academies) with triangle (or oak leaf) devices for additional awards; also awarded for national level activities (IACE, NCSA, NCC, NCGC, etc), additional awards designated by stars. This should be awarded to distinguished participants only, not everyone, and should not repeat for similiar actions (2nd round as encampment director).

Recruiting Service: One ribbon for cadets & adults, but dif standards. The adult ribbon requires tech in recuiting track in addition to recruiting 10 new members. Bronze & silver star designate Sr & master rating, Enamel CAP seal for mess dress my be worn as pocket device (w/ attachment device) while actively assigned as a recruiting & retention officer at any echelon. Cloth seal like we used to wear on flight suits can be worn in this location on BDU/BBDU.

Professional Development: I'm willing to conceed that the GRW stay in place, but Lvl I-IV would be designated on a single ribbon with devices for each level.


Net effect:
This adds 4 decs; eliminates 18 decs; & opens up 3-7 AF decs (not counting awards with a combat requirement)

[lordmonar]

Leave the ribbons alone:

1) some people actually EARNED them!
2) what would we -- or the National Board, for that matter --have left to talk about without them?!?

Not saying anyone did not earn them....just want to clear up some of the redundant bling.

[lordmonar]

ADULTS:
My proposal is pretty simple... many AF decs are awardable to civilians & routinely are. Work with AF to streamline this recommendation process, fill in holes with new ribbons, eliminate excess.

Suggest to AF that a paragraph be added to AFI 36-2803 explaining which decorations can be awarded to CAP members for service to AF, and the recommendation routing. The beauty of this is an AF employee (state director) is the initial recipient & all decisions are kept on the with the AF; they can award or not as they see fit. Here's the key change: The echelon approval levels would be the same as the AF & the chain of command for this purpose would be as follows: State Director as Sq/CC, RegLO as Gp/CC, CAP-USAF/CC as Wg/CC, AU, AETC, CSAF, SAF. The reasons behind this are pretty straight forward: it provides increased recognition idenifiable by both sides as contribution to the AF; better aligns with our parent service; and, aids members in the military with additional recognition & career enhancement for their additional contributions.

I understand where you are going with this...and I agree with it to a degree.

But there are some problems with it.

First.  If we give the USAF complete control for all of our decorations we have no way to recognize our people who do great work for CAP but nothing on AF missions.

Second.  We would have to deal with the issue of AD military people who get awards on CAP time.  A MSM is worth 5 points on my promotion exam and there is some very specific unofficial (if that is possible) on who rates a particular medal.  SrA snuffy who is also a CAP Capt working on wing staff gets a MSM for doing a great job would be getting a medal he would be completely ineligible for in the USAF....even if he really did the job of a MSgt at a wing/squadron level job. (it's not fair but that is the system we live with).

As for you matrix....there are minor problems I have with it...but something similar can be worked out.

I would agree that the CAP decoration system be reworked to match the USAF system.  A CAP Achievement Medal, CAP Commendation Medal, Cap Marksman Ribbon etc.  If we go with just USAF medal we would have to go with USAF award criteria...and I can tell you that by USAF standards no one would ever get above a Achievement or Commendation medal.  The marksman award can only be awarded for passing the USAF Qualification Course and CAP is NOT authorized to take that course (you can bend the rule that allow the ROTC familiarization course but I don't think that one counts toward qualification).

Again...I understand your push to get us as close to USAF as possible...but I think that in the execution what would happen is that no one would get any decorations except NHQ/Regional Staff.

[DNall]

First of all, I appreciate your input & look forwrd to further comments so we can hammer this out! Now I may have not been as clear as I wanted to on a couple points, let me try to clear that up.

First.  If we give the USAF complete control for all of our decorations we have no way to recognize our people who do great work for CAP but nothing on AF missions.

AF would have control over JUST the 3-8 actual real AF decorations, all the other decs are still CAP controlled via the standard process & are worn after mil dec. That specifically includes all the merit & service ribbons. The only thing AF would give for sure are Aerial Achvmt, AF Trng, and Marksmanship (the last two of those you can get at basic training so not a big deal). The other 5 requested to make avail to CAP inclue two unit awards, the volunteer ribbon you can get for working with CAP, the humanitarian award that you would get if you deployed with a military unit but this covers CAP deployments not too, and the one they may not go for it the Airman's medal, which would become basically the medal of honor for CAP with silver/bronze valor under it. Those are the only ones they'd control & nothing else.

Second.  We would have to deal with the issue of AD military people who get awards on CAP time.  A MSM is worth 5 points on my promotion exam and there is some very specific unofficial (if that is possible) on who rates a particular medal.  SrA snuffy who is also a CAP Capt working on wing staff gets a MSM for doing a great job would be getting a medal he would be completely ineligible for in the USAF....even if he really did the job of a MSgt at a wing/squadron level job. (it's not fair but that is the system we live with).

I understand where you're coming from & you'll note MSM is not on the list. I don't believe you get points for any of those I listed, maybe the Airman medal, but that'd only be given out in extremely rare cases where it is well deserved.

As for you matrix....there are minor problems I have with it...but something similar can be worked out.

I would agree that the CAP decoration system be reworked to match the USAF system.  A CAP Achievement Medal, CAP Commendation Medal, Cap Marksman Ribbon etc.  If we go with just USAF medal we would have to go with USAF award criteria...and I can tell you that by USAF standards no one would ever get above a Achievement or Commendation medal.

90% of the awards are still CAP awards w/ CAP distinctive ribbons that are awarded & controlled by CAP under CAP rules. That said, I would like to have the criteria of the merit medals match that of the AF counterparts & thereby raise the bar.

The marksman award can only be awarded for passing the USAF Qualification Course and CAP is NOT authorized to take that course (you can bend the rule that allow the ROTC familiarization course but I don't think that one counts toward qualification).

Certainly getting the opportunity to shoot for it is not easy (base & range okay plus instructor), but there is a specific reg authorizing CAP cadets & senior members (along with AFAcad cadets) to shoot for & earn the ribbon (522s are issued). Mike would have to find that reg for you again, he's the one that quoted it.

Again...I understand your push to get us as close to USAF as possible...but I think that in the execution what would happen is that no one would get any decorations except NHQ/Regional Staff.

Cleaning up the awards process is another thread. Demonsterablly this doesn't change anything about our awards criteria or for large part the awards avail. All it does is consolidate 6-11 awards while realigning things to our version of the AF model.