Changing Civil Air Patrol to U.S. Civil Air Patrol

[RogueLeader]

I guarantee that I won't wear US Civil Air Patrol unit mandated.

[lordmonar]

I guarantee that I won't wear US Civil Air Patrol unit mandated.

Well to be technical it has already been mandated.

The NB made the decision.  It is authorised and there is a drop dead date.

The only problem is that the NB has not yet disciminated that informaiton through the proper channels yet.

[Psicorp]

I guarantee that I won't wear US Civil Air Patrol unit mandated.

Well to be technical it has already been mandated.

The NB made the decision.  It is authorised and there is a drop dead date.

The only problem is that the NB has not yet disciminated that informaiton through the proper channels yet.

Which is interesting considering that if you were to order new CAP tapes from Vanguard, they'll be sending you USCAP tapes.   

[afgeo4]

Actually, once a decision has been made by the NB/NEC, you can start following it immediately, unless they included a delay in implementation. Until the change is officially released, you cannot be disciplined for failing to follow it. So, until the policy on the new nametapes is officially released, via policy letter, official memorandum, interim change letter, reg change, or reg revision, you are not required to follow the change. If they don't officially release it before the phase out period ends, you cannot be disciplined for failing to follow the change. (Yes, I know, the project phase out date is 2010, but we'll see how fast the official change if released.)

While you cannot be disciplined for following the regulations (in absense of updates or policy letters), you can and may be disciplined for not following them. Unofficial releases of minutes or videos of National Boards or the NEC are NOT, I repeat NOT authorizations for wear of uniform items. They are the transcripts of the NB/NECs decision/indecision to authorize such items in the future. Remember, only the regulations and their updates authorize you to do things in CAP. You don't know whether the decision of the NB/NEC was changed post the release of those minutes and that's why there is no regulation update. You don't know if CAP-USAF shut it down. You don't know if they simply changed their minds at last minute. The only document authorizing wear of uniform is the CAPR 39-1 and policy letters that accompany it.

There can be no discussion on the powers of regulations because such discussions take all the power away from regulations. They are the final authority on what is authorized in CAP (keep in mind that what isn't there is UNAUTHORIZED unless accompanied by written authorization from NHQ).

[afgeo4]

I guarantee that I won't wear US Civil Air Patrol unit mandated.

Well to be technical it has already been mandated.

The NB made the decision.  It is authorised and there is a drop dead date.

The only problem is that the NB has not yet disciminated that informaiton through the proper channels yet.

Lack of discimination = lack of mandate.

The suggestion has been adopted by the NB and until there is a policy letter of CAPR 39-1 update, it shall remain just that, a suggestion.

Once the proper "discimination" is achieved, it will be come an SOP order.

For example... an Admiral believes he should take his amphibious group into the Red Sea. He meets with his Captains and their department heads and the decision is made. Does that mean the Captains are allowed to sail into the Red Sea? Nope. Not until there are orders to do so. Decisions and orders may seem alike on the surface, but one carries your weight, and the other carries the weight of your superiors with you.

[lordmonar]

Lack of discimination = lack of mandate.

The suggestion has been adopted by the NB and until there is a policy letter of CAPR 39-1 update, it shall remain just that, a suggestion.

Once the proper "discimination" is achieved, it will be come an SOP order.

For example... an Admiral believes he should take his amphibious group into the Red Sea. He meets with his Captains and their department heads and the decision is made. Does that mean the Captains are allowed to sail into the Red Sea? Nope. Not until there are orders to do so. Decisions and orders may seem alike on the surface, but one carries your weight, and the other carries the weight of your superiors with you.

Now you are comparing apples and oranges.  If you look at CAP regulations....NB decisions are binding when they are adopted by the NB vote.  Does not say anything about once the changes is published and sent...it says once the vote is passed.

Granted you can't be punished for following something that has not been published....and it is difficult to follow an order that you can't see.

But you do not have to have actual written orders in hand to do what you are ordered to do.

Your hypothetical scenerio could be the same thing and no op oerder ever written before you start moving your units into the Red Sea.  CAS pilots do not ask for written orders before they execute a call for fire support that was not part of their original ATO.

Lack of dicimination....does not necessarily mean lack of authority....nor lack of mandate.  It simply means that you cannot be held accountable for it yet.

So Vanguard got the word and produced the name tapes.  Good on them, good on the guy who did his job and made that call.  What is bad, is the guy who was supposed to type up the change to the 39-1.  It should not take 2 months to write a simple.......the Branch Tape on BBDU and BDU uniforms will now read U.S. Civil Air Patrol.  Date of manditory wear is 1 June (or what ever it is) 2010.

Bottom line....if you define mandate as someone telling you to do somthing...by regulaiton that has happened....you just don't offically know about yet. 

[afgeo4]

Could you cite to me the regulation where it says that when the NBB passes a uniform change, it is an official change?

[lordmonar]

Could you cite to me the regulation where it says that when the NBB passes a uniform change, it is an official change?

Effective date. Unless an effective date is expressly specified in the regulation, a provision of a regulation, or the motion to ratify the regulation, all regulations become effective immediately when ratified. However, no member shall be penalized for non-compliance with a regulation prior to the time it is published pursuant to CAP regulations.

There you go.

[RiverAux]

Okay, that may be the case, but from a practical point of view it is meaningless.  I think in some cases those of us watching the webcast of the last NB came away with different impressions of what happened.  Heck, half the time the people on site weren't sure what they were voting for.  Therefore, making any body out in the field who makes changes based on information that verbally passed through who knows how many hands prior to the issuance of a regulation or a policy letter is probably going to get it wrong. 

[lordmonar]

Okay, that may be the case, but from a practical point of view it is meaningless.  I think in some cases those of us watching the webcast of the last NB came away with different impressions of what happened.  Heck, half the time the people on site weren't sure what they were voting for.  Therefore, making any body out in the field who makes changes based on information that verbally passed through who knows how many hands prior to the issuance of a regulation or a policy letter is probably going to get it wrong. 

Oh I agree....I'm not running out and changing anything, nor am I encouraging anyone to do anything based on the web-cast content/the reporting here on CAPTALK or even the unoffical draft notice othe NB minutes.

I was only pointing out...that technically the policies of the NB kick in when ratified unless they specify a start date (or require USAF approval----such as this might need).

Tags - MIKE

[arajca]

According to TP, all the Corporate CAP name tapes and tags will be changed to say "US Civil Air Patrol" according to his speech at the COWG Conf. this morning.

This is to include the blue and brushed silver nameplates on the corporate blues and service coat. The nameplates on the AF uniforms will not change.

That being said, I don't recall the nameplates being mentioned in the NB meeting, so I don't know how accurate that portion really is.

[Pumbaa]

So does this mean I can wear a U.S. cut out on one collar and the CAPcut out on the other

Or does that mean I wear both cut outs on BOTH collars???   U.S.CAP

Maybe I should have been quiet, they might read this an issues a policy letter for it!

[RiverAux]

That being said, I don't recall the nameplates being mentioned in the NB meeting, so I don't know how accurate that portion really is.

I am 100% positive they only mentioned the BDU tapes.  So, apparently NHQ is making up the nameplat change on their own without NB approval (unless there is some way to ammend motions, etc. after the meeting or some other technicality I'm not aware of). 

[LTC_Gadget]

1. For the record, it's "dissemination."

2.  That change is just great, considering I just got an envelope from Vanguard the other day, a gray name plate and blue tapes with "Civil Air Patrol."  I just love throwing money down a rat hole for s's & g's!!

V/R,

[JohnKachenmeister]

Sorry, but I've been off the uniform threads for a while.

What is this about brushing silver on a blue nameplate?

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot?  Over.

[arajca]

Sorry, but I've been off the uniform threads for a while.

What is this about brushing silver on a blue nameplate?

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot?  Over.

The nameplate for the service dress is brushed silver. That is the name of the finish. The name plate for the corporate blujes is just blue plastic. No change there. For now...

[jason.pennington]

I watched this on the CAP Channel live as it was happening.  I wished I had a way to voice my opinion BEFORE the vote.  I just bought 10 CAP tapes for my cadets.  With Vanguard's shipping prices that came to $21.  Now I will have to do it again?  Where do all of you get your uniform money?  I guess the NB are all independently wealthy!

[MIKE]

The old tapes can continue to be worn until 1 March 2010, supposedly. 

[DNall]

I watched this on the CAP Channel live as it was happening.  I wished I had a way to voice my opinion BEFORE the vote.  I just bought 10 CAP tapes for my cadets.  With Vanguard's shipping prices that came to $21.  Now I will have to do it again?  Where do all of you get your uniform money?  I guess the NB are all independently wealthy!

Wouldn't run off & do that. No formal change letter yet, some doubt if it needs to be or would be approved by AF (AETC/CC). If it does come out as official, then still don't buy new ones. How many cadets in the system now do you really think are still going to be with us in 2010? Once it's official then oreder the new ones for new people, but not before, and otherwise wait till they make you do something.

By the way, alt source, about $11.50, same quality. Do NOT go to Vanguard for this.

[lordmonar]

I watched this on the CAP Channel live as it was happening.  I wished I had a way to voice my opinion BEFORE the vote.  I just bought 10 CAP tapes for my cadets.  With Vanguard's shipping prices that came to $21.  Now I will have to do it again?  Where do all of you get your uniform money?  I guess the NB are all independently wealthy!

Not for 3 more years and by then the BDU's should be due to be replaced anyways....so nominal costs to you are minimal.