Changing Civil Air Patrol to U.S. Civil Air Patrol

[DNall]

There's no question we'll switch to ABUs. The point of wearing AF style uniforms is being able to get them from surplus. Which should tell you something about the timeline.

I would agree with freezing changes on BDU for two years, initial transition to ABUs in the 2009-11 timeframe & phase out of BDUs 2 years later, though I'd expect cadet phase out would extend to five years (still have them in old style service coats due to availability).

I wouldn't support further changes to BDUs in that timeframe unless the point is outright & openly setting a precedent for what we get on ABUs, and I hope the process isn't so childish as that.

What I'd like is white on OD for ABUs (AF ABU tapes being camo), ditch all the patches, stick to name/branch, badges/wings (including ebroidered versions of spec badges), and grade... all fully color or white/gold on OD background.

[MIKE]

See, patches would make us more distinct.

Nah, we don't need them either.  We can do without them for the same reasons the USAF can.

[RogueLeader]

What I'd like is white on OD for ABUs (AF ABU tapes being camo), ditch all the patches, stick to name/branch, badges/wings (including ebroidered versions of spec badges), and grade... all fully color or white/gold on OD background.

I think that the White/gold on OD woul look pretty good, I just wonder what they would look like on the uniform.  Does anybody know what the ABU's will look like?

[DNall]

What I'd like is white on OD for ABUs (AF ABU tapes being camo), ditch all the patches, stick to name/branch, badges/wings (including ebroidered versions of spec badges), and grade... all fully color or white/gold on OD background.

I think that the White/gold on OD woul look pretty good, I just wonder what they would look like on the uniform.  Does anybody know what the ABU's will look like?

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1111.0

background looks a little dark on that one, but you get the idea.

[flapsUP]

US Civil Air Patrol tape  arrived today from Vanguard.  $1.40 same cost as the old CAP tape.  Say what you want  but they look good on the bdu's.  Much more professional looking than I though it would be.

[Eclipse]

OK, I'll ask here since the other thread got locked.

I know this board has good intel, and most of what we hear comes to pass, but can anyone produce a document, memo or other authority on the nametape change?

If I can support it, I'll do it before Spring encampment, but my understanding right now is that this has not been fully approved by the USAF yet.

A memo from a Wing King saying he "heard" might be nice, but its not an authority.

[Major_Chuck]

Why must we change to the ABU?  What is the point?  I know, same arguement for why went to the BDU.  It is in the supply chain.

Why not just stick with the BDU's until they can't be obtained from any source and then switch to the blue BDU. 

We don't need to be hiding from those we are attempting to find.

[MIKE]

Why not just stick with the BDU's until they can't be obtained from any source and then switch to the blue BDU. 

Because...  Because we have Air Force style uniforms and we have CAP distinctive uniforms for those who can't (For reasons of weight or grooming.) or won't wear Air Force style.  Like it or not, there is a stigma there... and it goes both ways.

[DNall]

Why must we change to the ABU?  What is the point?  I know, same arguement for why went to the BDU.  It is in the supply chain.

Why not just stick with the BDU's until they can't be obtained from any source and then switch to the blue BDU. 

We don't need to be hiding from those we are attempting to find.

We're not the blueberry muffin patrol, we are an adjunct of the Air Force, and you need to understand very clearly that you don't get within a hundred miles of anything resembling a mission except by perceived affiliation with the military & letting outsiders think we meet AF standards. You send a team out in all BBDUs w/ no mention of the AF & you're suddenly seen for what you are - a poorly trained unqualified mere volunteer, and you're going to be seen as getting in the way of real professionals trying to do the job.

That & cadets are gone as soon as they don't feel like they are part of an AF organization, and with them will go enough funding to shut down CAP.

We'll be in BDUs till the supply chain shrinks below our need, then the ABU chain will be in place well enough to take care of us. At that point we'll make the switch in order to keep membership costs down, and to hold solidarity with our parent organization.

Respectfully!

[Al Sayre]

OK, I'll ask here since the other thread got locked.

I know this board has good intel, and most of what we hear comes to pass, but can anyone produce a document, memo or other authority on the nametape change?

If I can support it, I'll do it before Spring encampment, but my understanding right now is that this has not been fully approved by the USAF yet.

A memo from a Wing King saying he "heard" might be nice, but its not an authority.

Pylon posted a draft from the NB on one of the other threads, I'm not sure where it is, but it's on that.

[Pylon]

OK, I'll ask here since the other thread got locked.

I know this board has good intel, and most of what we hear comes to pass, but can anyone produce a document, memo or other authority on the nametape change?

If I can support it, I'll do it before Spring encampment, but my understanding right now is that this has not been fully approved by the USAF yet.

A memo from a Wing King saying he "heard" might be nice, but its not an authority.

Pylon posted a draft from the NB on one of the other threads, I'm not sure where it is, but it's on that.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1678.msg27207#msg27207

[Major_Chuck]

Respectively,

Why the mad rush to change yet to another uniform combination just because Big Brother Blue is changing?  Or in this case change two more uniforms. 

C.A.P.  Come and Pay.  How many more $$$ are we going to force our members to shell out to change uniforms yet again.  Switching to the new proposed AF uniforms will add uniform combinations #18 and #19 if I am not mistaken.

Again,  Respectively submitted and not argueing the reason and logic DNall posted.  Just plain tired of shelling out my paycheck to be a volunteer.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Respectively,

Why the mad rush to change yet to another uniform combination just because Big Brother Blue is changing?  Or in this case change two more uniforms. 

C.A.P.  Come and Pay.  How many more $$$ are we going to force our members to shell out to change uniforms yet again.  Switching to the new proposed AF uniforms will add uniform combinations #18 and #19 if I am not mistaken.

Again,  Respectively submitted and not argueing the reason and logic DNall posted.  Just plain tired of shelling out my paycheck to be a volunteer.

The ABU is the new uniform of the Air Force.  We wear the Air Force uniform with distinctive insignia (which changes weekly, it seems).

When the Air Force changes, so do we.  Traditionally, our wear-out dates are double the dates for the Air Force.  If they plan to introduce the ABU over 5 years (the time frame that I've heard) you can plan on 8-10 years for phase-in of the new uniform for CAP.

Do you think your current BDU's are still going to look good 8 to 10 years from now?

When its time to replace them, replace them with the ABU.  By then, BDU's will be collector's items.

[LtCol White]

Out of curiousity, I called Vanguard this morning and they have the US CIVIL AIR PATROL  strips available now. That didn't take long.

[MIKE]

Is it US CIVIL AIR PATROL or U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL?  Note periods.  I thought I saw periods on the tapes Maj Gen Pineda held up during the stream.

Pics please!

I think going out and getting these from Vanguard is a bit premature... JMHO.  Wait for the policy letter.

[lordmonar]

Respectively,

Why the mad rush to change yet to another uniform combination just because Big Brother Blue is changing?  Or in this case change two more uniforms. 

C.A.P.  Come and Pay.  How many more $$$ are we going to force our members to shell out to change uniforms yet again.  Switching to the new proposed AF uniforms will add uniform combinations #18 and #19 if I am not mistaken.

Again,  Respectively submitted and not argueing the reason and logic DNall posted.  Just plain tired of shelling out my paycheck to be a volunteer.

The ABU is the new uniform of the Air Force.  We wear the Air Force uniform with distinctive insignia (which changes weekly, it seems).

When the Air Force changes, so do we.  Traditionally, our wear-out dates are double the dates for the Air Force.  If they plan to introduce the ABU over 5 years (the time frame that I've heard) you can plan on 8-10 years for phase-in of the new uniform for CAP.

Do you think your current BDU's are still going to look good 8 to 10 years from now?

When its time to replace them, replace them with the ABU.  By then, BDU's will be collector's items.

I guess the question CAP SAFETY DUDE and mee are asking....is why do we "have to" wear the USAF style uniform?  Don't get me wrong.  I like the USAF uniforms but between the weight and grooming standards and the USAF changes....CAP could just as easily start the move now to corporate uniforms only (TPU, BBDU, Blue Flight Suit).

The amount of creditbilty we gain from wearing USAF uniforms is minimal.  But the loss of credibilty because we show up at mission bases with 8 different uniforms and about half of those worn incorrectly is a much greater in my opinion.

[LtCol White]

Is it US CIVIL AIR PATROL or U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL?  Note periods.  I thought I saw periods on the tapes Maj Gen Pineda held up during the stream.

Pics please!

I think going out and getting these from Vanguard is a bit premature... JMHO.  Wait for the policy letter.

Not sure if it has the periods or not. I didnt ask. I only asked if they had them available yet.  Have not seen them and they arent on the Vanguard website yet.

Well, if Vanguard is making them, you know it was at the direction of NHQ.
We'll see if USAF comes back and says NO.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Respectively,

Why the mad rush to change yet to another uniform combination just because Big Brother Blue is changing?  Or in this case change two more uniforms. 

C.A.P.  Come and Pay.  How many more $$$ are we going to force our members to shell out to change uniforms yet again.  Switching to the new proposed AF uniforms will add uniform combinations #18 and #19 if I am not mistaken.

Again,  Respectively submitted and not argueing the reason and logic DNall posted.  Just plain tired of shelling out my paycheck to be a volunteer.

The ABU is the new uniform of the Air Force.  We wear the Air Force uniform with distinctive insignia (which changes weekly, it seems).

When the Air Force changes, so do we.  Traditionally, our wear-out dates are double the dates for the Air Force.  If they plan to introduce the ABU over 5 years (the time frame that I've heard) you can plan on 8-10 years for phase-in of the new uniform for CAP.

Do you think your current BDU's are still going to look good 8 to 10 years from now?

When its time to replace them, replace them with the ABU.  By then, BDU's will be collector's items.

I guess the question CAP SAFETY DUDE and mee are asking....is why do we "have to" wear the USAF style uniform?  Don't get me wrong.  I like the USAF uniforms but between the weight and grooming standards and the USAF changes....CAP could just as easily start the move now to corporate uniforms only (TPU, BBDU, Blue Flight Suit).

The amount of creditbilty we gain from wearing USAF uniforms is minimal.  But the loss of credibilty because we show up at mission bases with 8 different uniforms and about half of those worn incorrectly is a much greater in my opinion.

The Kachenmeister Law of Military Tradition:

"Anytime a policy, procedure, practice, or offhand comment survives combat, that policy, procedure, practice, or comment becomes a Revered Tradition."

We were placed in Army Air Corps uniforms when we became a combat force.  Our antecedents earned the right to wear the USAF uniform for us.

I, for one, do not wish to slap a battle tradition in the face.

[lordmonar]

The Kachenmeister Law of Military Tradition:

"Anytime a policy, procedure, practice, or offhand comment survives combat, that policy, procedure, practice, or comment becomes a Revered Tradition."

We were placed in Army Air Corps uniforms when we became a combat force.  Our antecedents earned the right to wear the USAF uniform for us.

I, for one, do not wish to slap a battle tradition in the face.

I am not arguing that....and I wish we could follow up on that.  But the USAF does not beleive that.  They are more worried about their image that they contribute to our lack of creditbility.  I have not control over what the USAF does.  So I argue in a way that may actually make a difference.

[DNall]

I guess the question CAP SAFETY DUDE and mee are asking....is why do we "have to" wear the USAF style uniform?  Don't get me wrong.  I like the USAF uniforms but between the weight and grooming standards and the USAF changes....CAP could just as easily start the move now to corporate uniforms only (TPU, BBDU, Blue Flight Suit).

The amount of creditbilty we gain from wearing USAF uniforms is minimal.  But the loss of credibilty because we show up at mission bases with 8 different uniforms and about half of those worn incorrectly is a much greater in my opinion.

Because we are first & foremost an adjunct of the Air Force & everything else is secondary to that. You wear the same uniform as your teammates. The AF DOES want us wearing the AF uniform. They granted permission for that long long ago, and have never granted permission or endorsed for anything but that. They want us to display symbolicly (with the psychological ramifications) that we are on the same team. And then there's having it avail from surplus keeps the costs of membership down.

I would dispute the amount of credibility we get from wearing AF-style uniforms is minimal. No one knows or cares what Civil Air Patrol is, and no one is about to entrust the lives of their loved ones to civilian volunteer hobbists with minimal self-training, experience, and rescources. When they think the full force & expertise of the US military has come to bear on their problem then they feel at ease.

However, I would certainly agree that we look like idiots when wearing 15 dif combinations. The AF combinations are fine. The alternative versions should be cut down to align with those, apply as much standardization as possible, that makes six possibilities, not 18. If I could further expand (pardon the pun) the ht/wt standards so most people could wear the uniform & make that a standard of membership, I would, but the AF doesn't do what I tell them either. I think most of this gillion different combinations & color explosion BS, not to mention all the changes... all that stuff CAP does to itself. Everything AF has done has been to build unity & keep costs low. The only times the've pushed away is when we did something specific to piss them off.

Overall my view is we should solidify & condense our uniforms, then freeze for 2-5 years while we work to address legitimate complaints about quality & standards across our force. I think we're more than capable of earning the respect & trust of our teammates, and once that's done, and with a fair amount of educating them thrown in, I think we'll earn better aligned uniforms & maybe even that loosening of the ht/wt standards to a degree. I think if you tell someone you what you want for a reward & then spell out a challnging course of goals they want accomplished, you can work hard & earn just about anything you set your mind to.