Not wearing the uniform to prevent terrorist attack

[Chris Jacobs]

I am disgusted that any one would criticize a leader after 9-11 for doing something out of fear.  The whole country was scared to death and as i said there were a lot of crazy decisions made.

Sorry you feel that way.  When my comm site was bombed in '88 no one lost their minds and over reacted.  Between 89-95 when I was in Japan my base was rocketed three times.  We never even changed our threatcon.

I most certainly can criticize our leaders for operating on fear instead of good intelligence.  Yes we missed the 9-11 hijackers...but standard operating procedure says that after a few day, if there are no more attacks then the cell has spent their wad.  Also we reacted globally.  My base in Japan was at FPCON Charlie.  There was no threat there.  There was no need for us to go the level of security we did.  Except that our leaders were operating on fear.....and not using their brains.

I would hope that military leaders could act in a logical way.  I understand that the military must keep a calm head and run on standard operating procedures.  But we are not the full on military.  we are ran by civilian volunteers.  and these leaders mission is not to keep up military operations.  they do have a responsibility to keep us safe, including cadets as young as 12.  Some have only a small amount of training, and barley any have any specific training on how to deal with a terrorist attack.  So saying that we should expect them to make the decision in this circumstance correctly is asking a little to much of civilian volunteers. 

If i was in comand of a group i don't think i would have made the order to not wear uniforms.  But that is just me.  I would be the one in the responsibility position.  But i was not on that day.

But i guess we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

[DNall]

There was no threat there.  There was no need for us to go the level of security we did.  Except that our leaders were operating on fear.....and not using their brains.

I don't know if I'd be so hard on them. I mean we just got hit at home, there was not faith in intell & everything was crazy, it'd be easy for something to slip between the cracks, just like so many things about the Pearl Harbor story. If you're a base commander in that enviro, do you really want to risk letting something happen on your watch? I tink they & everyone standing watch knew it was unneccessary, but they kept it up really till we were in Afghan & had the enemy at arms length.

Far as that order right after 9/11, ya know I don't think there's any reason or room to criticize. It's in the past, who cares. You wanna discuss if CAP is at threat based on uniforms, if they are legally mandatory & meant to protect us under international law (they are), or some other subject down that line then that's fine. I don't know if there are answers you can reach on that, or if they matter, but that's your call.

[Chris Jacobs]

Far as that order right after 9/11, ya know I don't think there's any reason or room to criticize. It's in the past, who cares. You wanna discuss if CAP is at threat based on uniforms, if they are legally mandatory & meant to protect us under international law (they are), or some other subject down that line then that's fine. I don't know if there are answers you can reach on that, or if they matter, but that's your call.

That has been my point, but you make it so much better i think.

Tags - MIKE

[Major Carrales]

Well If I had been in that Group when the Commander said "please don’t wear the uniform, we might get attacked by a terrorist? I would have refused!!!  why.
1.I been in the middle east, never did I see the Israeli government tell soldiers not to wear the uniform, a uniform deters terrorists and many criminals.

2.Where in the regulations does it say a Group commander can do that without permission or authorization from the wing or National HQ.

3.Why in the world would you order the removal of the symbols that make us who we are, soldiers died wearing the CAP uniform,911 was like Pearl Harbor for America, CAP responded to Pearl Harbor in just the opposite manner of being afraid, It is who we are!!! I think that there would have been a coup d’état in that group if I had been a member!
 

And if you had been in my Group (the one in questions), at the very least we would have had a long, frank conversation about cooperation and carrying out orders.

FYI, I did have the concurrence of the Wing CC.

Coup d'etat, by the way, is a French word, a nation that hasn't been a whole lot of help in this entire situation.

If I may say one thing...

While I don't agree with the action I will say that it must have taken lots of chutzpah, in the meaning of gutsy, to do that.  And, I am sure it was done with the safety of the CAP Officers in mind.

[O-Rex]

I'm really not worried about us being on the Taliban's "10 most wanted" list. Terrorists aim at community/national centers-of-gravity to achieve their desired effect: CAP isn't one of them.

If a terrorist sees a CAP member in uniform, chances are he'll ignore and walk right past, on the way to planning something BIG.

Those members with "James Bond" notions were likely disappointed....

Nonetheless, there is something to be said for erring on the side of caution, as 9/11 was an upheaval for all.

[ZigZag911]

Just to clarify, my concern was not with CAP being targeted, but with CAP being mistaken for active military forces.

[Pumbaa]

One point I did not see while reading through this thread...

Everyone is saying CAP is not a target.. understood...  However, remember that our uniform sorta kinda looks like momma blue...

Terrorists target uniforms. (or in my mind anybody, men women and children)  They do not say.. ohhh lookkee see CAP.. No they say.. American Serivceman in uniform Crush kill destroy! or some Allah comment before rushing at you with a knife to slit your throat or having finger on button of personal explosive belt

How many times have you been on your way to a meeting say in your blues or BDUs, stopped for some gas or something else, and someone makes a comment (usually positive), thanks you for your service, asks you if you are on leave or heading back out?  Again people do not see CAP, but they see a service style uniform worn PROPERLY (I might add), and think military.

Now.. That being said, remember that the cadets are 12-18 years old.. Do you want them to be a potential target? Personally I think the risk was low... but like anything in life it is a risk. I vote that it might have been a little overboard, but the logic at the time, can not be totally argued against.

Me?  I watched the towers fall that day, my friend who I graduated highschool with, was working on the 103 of the north tower.  I had fire in my belly when I saw the towers come down... I put on my leather jacket with USA down the arms, Ol Glory on the back, just itching to tangle with some terrorist...  Lemme wear my uniform wherever I can... DAng.. stupid rule about not being able to carry a side arm.. sigh...

[SAR-EMT1]

Here in ILWG, the units near me were all sans uniforms for at least two weeks. - Same with a few local JROTC and College ROTC units-
It wasnt so much a fear decision as: if you are in uniform either check out a M9 or if you cant get an M9 dont wear it. I happened to see retired "Auxiliary Police" at some airports and bus stations with all manner of automatic weapons.

Within CAP I  assure you that there were a few Pilots who were deciding on the best way to mount Stingers to the 172's.

[davedove]

I can see that in some ways a uniform might make someone more of a target.  However, a uniformed presence will also tend to be a deterent in many cases, as the their presence would make a target look better defended.  Terrorists tend to go after soft targets that are not well defended.

[afgeo4]

As a member of a squadron in Manhattan just after 9/11, I can say that the idea of our members, especially cadets, wearing uniforms to and from activities while on the subway, buses or other public transportation was very troubling. We knew that potential terrorists lived in our city, in our neighborhoods. We knew that many ethnic and religious groups in the city celebrated the attacks of 9/11 and we knew that anyone in a military uniform could be a target on an individual level. At the time, the US forces had invaded Afghanistan and the nation was clearly at war. Anyone wearing BDUs on the subway could be a target for assault. Remember, at that time, every major and many secondary subway stations has national guardsmen with M-16s. Our 13 year old cadets didn't have weapons but because they were wearing the same uniforms, could be great targets for those who wanted to make a statement. That was the atmosphere in the city at the time and that is also the reason why US armed forces were instructed not to travel in uniform in NYC post 9/11 as well.

[Major_Chuck]

In addition CAP is way...way....way....way down on the list of terrorists targets.

I think you left off two 'way...way's'...   

[lordmonar]

In addition CAP is way...way....way....way down on the list of terrorists targets.

I think you left off two 'way...way's'...   

Way...way...way....way.  There you go four more for good measure.  I don't want anyone to think they are being short changed. 

[Major_Chuck]

It's easy to say what we would have, could have, should have done right now.  Put in your minds that it is the evening of 9/11/2001.  

Play like you're the Group or Wing Commander of NY WG on that day.  It is 1800 hours.  America was attacked less than 12 hours earlier.  Smoke still lingers over Manhatten.  Nothing except military aircraft are flying overhead.  Inbound flights from outside the US are being diverted.

Based upon what you know right now (Sept 11, 2001) and what really DID NOT know.  Make a decision.

Make your decision as every talking news head anchor is proclaiming that there is a terrorist cell waiting in your back yard.

Make your decision based upon a very scared, very confused, very concerned general population that just witnessed the deaths of some 3000 people live on TV.

Make a decision, and stand by that decision based upon the facts at hand.  When the picture is clearer, change the decision.

[wingnut]

Gheez Wiz, its ok we forgive you for being a scared, we all have been scared, we were terrorized, that's why we call them terrorist, they terrorized us. I mean we all respect the New Orleans Policemen who threw their Badges down and ran away, they stopped doing their duty; Right??

this is a blog: right? in my opinion to run from terrorists', or "ethnic minorities bogymen" or what ever you have rationalized to attempt to have us accept what you did. Well you get no sympathy from me, taking ones uniform off in fear of being attacked is an act of weakness, without courage, honor or integrity it spits on the graves of all of those Civil Air Patrol members who have died in the line of duty. And my father who asked to be buried in his CAP uniform. He being a combat veteran of both the US Army and Us Navy, yet my father hated the military and war but he had a pride in his CAP uniform, the thought of  CAP members hiding in fear just reminds me of how "unmilitary" we in CAP often are. In hostile foreign countries I can understand not wearing a US military uniform. But we are in America Buddy, shame.

Remember before you over react to my reaction I have had terrorist bombs going off around me in the middle east, I have worn a police uniform in the middle of a riot, I guess I could have taken off my uniform and disappeared into the night, but I had a duty to stay. One of our senior cadets told me last week that many of the cadets see many of the Senior CAP members as having little integrity. . . I agree. When you take the Oath and put  the US on your service coat you are representing the United States, thats why the US Air Force and Congress call us the US Air Force Auxillary.

[MIKE]

this is a blog: right?

Not exactly.

Main Entry: blog 
Pronunciation: \ˈblȯg, ˈbläg\
Function: noun
Etymology: short for Weblog
Date: 1999
: a Web site that contains an online personal journal with reflections, comments, and often hyperlinks provided by the writer
— blog·ger noun
— blog·ging noun

Main Entry: fo·rum 
Pronunciation: \ˈfȯr-əm\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural forums also fo·ra  \-ə\
Etymology: Latin; akin to Latin foris outside, fores door — more at door
Date: 15th century
1 a: the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b: a public meeting place for open discussion c: a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas
2: a judicial body or assembly : court
3 a: a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b: a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities

[/off-topic]

[ZigZag911]

To clarify again, in the aftermath of 9/11. all personnel needed/requested from my command made themselves available, when and where asked for, in the appointed uniform.

This included personnel assisting in getting relief supplies to the WTC site itself.

For a period of 6 or so weeks afterward, members in this group were instructed not to wear uniforms to weekly unit meetings.

As has been suggested elsewhere, this was because of the fact that CAP BDUs are virtually indistinguishable from the active services from any distance, or in dusk or darkness.

No ran around in panic.

No one hid under the bed.

It was a precaution taken in the uncertainty surrounding the events of 9/11.

I'd do the same thing again in similar circumstances, because ultimately I answer to my conscience, not anyone's opinion.

[afgeo4]

Every member in NYC Group showed up for duty after 9/11. They all showed up in uniforms. All air and ground missions were done on time and in uniform. NO ONE threw their "badge" down. Members were simply instructed not to wear uniforms to/from duty stations, that's all. It's a common sense order given for the safety of our members. As I've said previously, the US Army and US Air Force personnel in NYC at the time were instructed to do the same. Why? Same reason why we tell them to wait for the green light to cross the street. Because their lives are too valuable to us for them to act stupid.

Your "feeling" on the situation is noted and your questioning the integrity and honor of our members is noted as well.