The old corporate uniform

[VNY]

Bwaaaahhahahahaha.......

The Oxford English Dictionary just added the above word.  Or something similar to it, I think "Bwahahaha" is what actually made it in.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled uniform thread.

[SarDragon]

One downside was that it created three classes of members - fit and shaven, who could wear the AF-style; chubbies, who could wear the CSU; fuzzies, who could wear neither, and were obliged to wear the blazer, aviator shirt, or polo shirt.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Um...not quite.  Aaccording to all available sources, the Air Force had no real issue with the Corporate Service Uniform, once the U.S. cutouts on the lapel were replaced with CAP cutouts.  It was the National Executive Committee which killed the CSU, following the showing-to-the-door of He Who Shall Remain Nameless.  Why they did so remains a puzzle to many (includingme - I liked the darn thing), but Big Blue was not the reason the CSU went bye-bye.

Jack

The Colonel is correct.

It was solely a CAP decision...the AF had no problem, even with the blue epaulet slides, once CAP responded to the AF's directives.

Probably the silliest ramification was replacing the hard grade, blue slides and nameplate with the standard CAP grey ones for the wear-out period...someone show me the logic in doing that for a uniform that's been deep-sixed anyway?!

I have never got a straight "this is why" answer, either from CT or from NHQ.  I don't think our resident Jedi Master and Voice From The Inside, Ned, even knows a hard-and-fast answer for it.

Of course, there are all kinds of hypotheses, ranging from "it looked like the Navy," "it looked like a foreign military uniform (which nation is never specified)," "it looked like the CGAUX (because of one silver cuff ring )."

My hypotheses:

• NEC was trying to do away with any and all vestiges of the prior Generalissimo (think of how the former Soviet republics pulled down their statues of Lenin en masse, how it's illegal to display a swastika in most of Europe today, and how the statue of Emperor Palpatine got pulled down at the end of Return Of The Jedi)...killing a good idea along with the bad ones ("throw the baby out with the bathwater").
• Ever since the berry boards era, CAP has walked on eggshells with uniform issues, deathly afraid of ticking the Air Force off, even when there is no proof.
• CAP has an inexplicable and unfathomable logical fallacy that "CAP distinctive must equal grey, no exceptions," which is their way (I suppose) of ensuring compliance with the unenforceable and undefinable "low light/at-a-distance" dictum.

It wasn't so much that they killed the uniform that rankled me (though it did)...it was the attitude of "we're killing it, we don't have to tell you why, we're not going to tell you why, so suck it up and wear the blazer, grey/white, et. al., and that will be the end of it...and don't ask!."

Even the Air Force changed the McPeak uniform in no small part due to its unpopularity, whereas we had a popular uniform kiboshed.

[Private Investigator]

The next corporate uniform should be khakis.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The next corporate uniform should be khakis.   

Can't be.  That would tick the Air Force off.

Has to be grey.

[Phillip]

"What/who killed the CSU?" will probably go down as one of those questions that will never have an answer.  Like "When will we get ABUs?" and "When will 39-1 be updated?"

One uniform item that I was pleasantly surprised didn't get the axe was the black leather A-2.  Would have been nice if the black windbreaker would have been kept for the grey/white combo too.

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

Why not utilize the "Ask the National Commander" link in eServices?

The new ABU is uncomfortable and expensive.  But all the reasons National gave for the reasons for not issuing this uniform to us is bogus.  All middle school and high school AFJROTC students have been wearing the new uniform for a few years now.  Explain to me why CAP cadets are different.

The ABU is an expensive and uncomfortable.  Also, hard to keep the boots clean.

"Bright Idea".  Why not wear the dark blue BDUs and keep the black boots?  Any comments?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Why not utilize the "Ask the National Commander" link in eServices?

If you do, and get an answer beyond "refer to General Courter's PowerPoint," please post it here on CT.

All middle school and high school AFJROTC students have been wearing the new uniform for a few years now.  Explain to me why CAP cadets are different.

AFJROTC are the "favoured sons" of the AF family.  They never, and I mean never, commit uniform violations.  CAP has to be kept on a short, grey leash to make sure they don't start trolling for salutes.

"Bright Idea".  Why not wear the dark blue BDUs and keep the black boots?  Any comments?

It's what I generally wear, along with the blue flight suit, but you'll get heat for suggesting that.

"What/who killed the CSU?" will probably go down as one of those questions that will never have an answer.  Like "When will we get ABUs?" and "When will 39-1 be updated?"

And "why is the sky blue?" "who really shot JFK?" and "who is buried in Grant's tomb?"

One uniform item that I was pleasantly surprised didn't get the axe was the black leather A-2. 

SHHHHH!  Don't give them any ideas!!!!!!

Would have been nice if the black windbreaker would have been kept for the grey/white combo too.

And black pullover sweater...but that would tick the Air Force off.

[SarDragon]

Why not utilize the "Ask the National Commander" link in eServices?

The new ABU is uncomfortable and expensive.  But all the reasons National gave for the reasons for not issuing this uniform to us is bogus.  All middle school and high school AFJROTC students have been wearing the new uniform for a few years now.  Explain to me why CAP cadets are different.

The ABU is an expensive and uncomfortable.  Also, hard to keep the boots clean.

"Bright Idea".  Why not wear the dark blue BDUs and keep the black boots?  Any comments?

Because we've been told not to. When that feature hit the street, every Ton, Dick, and Harry (plus a lot of others) asked that Q, and it got to be too much. Do a search on "Ask the National Commander" on here, and see what you get.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Point taken...so why hasn't the link been shut down?

I've never used it because it seems too much to me like jumping the chain.

[arajca]

The only thing that we've been told not to ask about anymore is the ABU. Anything else is still fair game.

[jimmydeanno]

The "Ask the National Commander" button is sort of like "Ask the President."  The Cadet Blog has a post that sums it up nicely.  It says something to the effect of, "If you were to run into the President in the elevator and had only one question to ask, what would it be?"  Probably not, "When are we getting ABUs?"

[okeecap]

The old school khakis does sound like a good idea.  Could not confuse us for any one else then.

[PHall]

The old school khakis does sound like a good idea.  Could not confuse us for any one else then.

I wouldn't be so sure about that....

[LGM30GMCC]

Why not utilize the "Ask the National Commander" link in eServices?

The new ABU is uncomfortable and expensive.  But all the reasons National gave for the reasons for not issuing this uniform to us is bogus.  All middle school and high school AFJROTC students have been wearing the new uniform for a few years now.  Explain to me why CAP cadets are different.

The ABU is an expensive and uncomfortable.  Also, hard to keep the boots clean.

"Bright Idea".  Why not wear the dark blue BDUs and keep the black boots?  Any comments?

AFJROTC is part of AFOATS and is more directly controlled by the USAF. Additionally, all instructors are retired USAF Officers and NCOs. They are also school employees, but definitely have the backing to wear their uniforms and have good reason to do it correctly. All of their instructors are required to maintain H/W and Grooming standards in order to continue to wear their AF uniforms. So that's how they're different.

ABUs are essentially BDUs in different color and with slightly different fabric. I find them at least as comfortable as winter-weight BDUs. For field wear I would agree the boots are harder to keep clean, but the standards of wear of the ABU are also culturally different. Despite claims they would just become like BDUs in terms of starching/etc, over the last 4 years that has been resisted well. Occasionally you hear stories of a disgruntled old NCO or Officer who thinks they should be starched or some such, but overall they are being worn in the manner in which they were designed.

As to expense:
AAFES New ABU Pants (Men): $43.47
AAFES New ABU Coat (Men): $37.05
AAFES New ABU  Cap: $5.71
Nametape: $2.00
Branch Tape: $2.00
Total: $90.23

Vanguard new BDU Pants: $32.00
Vanguard new BDU Coat: $32.00
Vanguard new BDU Cap: $11.00
AAFES Blue Nametape: $2.00
Vanguard new Branch Tape: $1.70
Total: $78.70

Vanguard new BBDU Pants: $38.00
Vanguard new BBDU Coat: $38.00
Vanguard new BBDU Cap: $11.00
AAFES blue Nametape: $2.00
Vanguard new Branch Tape: $1.70
Total: $90.70

So by more 'expensive' we're talking $11.53 more for a ABU uniform compared to a BDU uniform and it's cheaper than the BBDU so your argument there is moot. Boots vary in price so I'm leaving them out of the equation. While there are some really cheap black 'combat boots', I would say for comparable quality in the mid level range you have the same prices for black or green boots.

Now if we didn't wear patches on the ABU like the USAF doesn't, you save money versus the BDU. Of course that could be solved by getting rid of patches from the BDU as well.

As to care, the ABUs really, truly, are wash and wear. You throw 'em in your washer, you throw 'em in your dryer, you take 'em out and throw them on a hangar. Mine have not touched an iron in 4 years and are doing just fine.

[BillB]

You are forgetting that University AFROTC and High School AFJROTC surplus uniforms can go to CAP. That is a good source of ABUs for CAP cadets. Sure they are used uniforms, but in all most all cases have only been worn something olike 18 days.

[a2capt]

..and that surplus source channel provided CAP units a huge supply of BDU's and Blues over the years.

[SARDOC]

The old school khakis does sound like a good idea.  Could not confuse us for any one else then.

Especially now that the Navy has announced they are getting rid of the Dress Khaki's

[Eclipse]

Why not utilize the "Ask the National Commander" link in eServices?

The new ABU is uncomfortable and expensive.  But all the reasons National gave for the reasons for not issuing this uniform to us is bogus.  All middle school and high school AFJROTC students have been wearing the new uniform for a few years now.  Explain to me why CAP cadets are different.

The ABU is an expensive and uncomfortable.  Also, hard to keep the boots clean.

"Bright Idea".  Why not wear the dark blue BDUs and keep the black boots?  Any comments?

AFJROTC is part of AFOATS and is more directly controlled by the USAF. Additionally, all instructors are retired USAF Officers and NCOs. They are also school employees, but definitely have the backing to wear their uniforms and have good reason to do it correctly. All of their instructors are required to maintain H/W and Grooming standards in order to continue to wear their AF uniforms. So that's how they're different.

ABUs are essentially BDUs in different color and with slightly different fabric. I find them at least as comfortable as winter-weight BDUs. For field wear I would agree the boots are harder to keep clean, but the standards of wear of the ABU are also culturally different. Despite claims they would just become like BDUs in terms of starching/etc, over the last 4 years that has been resisted well. Occasionally you hear stories of a disgruntled old NCO or Officer who thinks they should be starched or some such, but overall they are being worn in the manner in which they were designed.

As to expense:
AAFES New ABU Pants (Men): $43.47
AAFES New ABU Coat (Men): $37.05
AAFES New ABU  Cap: $5.71
Nametape: $2.00
Branch Tape: $2.00
Total: $90.23

Vanguard new BDU Pants: $32.00
Vanguard new BDU Coat: $32.00
Vanguard new BDU Cap: $11.00
AAFES Blue Nametape: $2.00
Vanguard new Branch Tape: $1.70
Total: $78.70

Vanguard new BBDU Pants: $38.00
Vanguard new BBDU Coat: $38.00
Vanguard new BBDU Cap: $11.00
AAFES blue Nametape: $2.00
Vanguard new Branch Tape: $1.70
Total: $90.70

So by more 'expensive' we're talking $11.53 more for a ABU uniform compared to a BDU uniform and it's cheaper than the BBDU so your argument there is moot. Boots vary in price so I'm leaving them out of the equation. While there are some really cheap black 'combat boots', I would say for comparable quality in the mid level range you have the same prices for black or green boots.

You selected the (theoretically) least expensive source for ABU's and compared it to one of the most expensive sources for CAP uniforms.
Checking alternative sources that most members actually use, you'll find that the ABU holds its high price, while the camo and blue field uniforms
are significantly cheaper, by a factor of about 35% ($45 vs. $29).  You also can't simply discount the more expensive boots as if it wasn't significant.
It is difficult to find anything that would meet the ABU spec under $100, yet we all know we can find serviceable black boots under $30 at the local Walmart.  There is also the issue that boots are not required with the blue field uniform.

In fact, considering that, beyond appearance, there is no need to blouse field pants for the average unit meeting, it would probably be better
for everyone involved, but especially cadets, to wear the trousers "down", with black street shows, unless they are involved in field operations.  That would allow everyone to wear street shoes for normal meetings and drill.  As it is painfully pointed out on a regular basis, the majority of our cadets are
not involved in ES, so the majority would never need to purchase boot at all.

Then there's outerwear - the ABU will require that be replaced as well, and there isn't the ubiquitous and readily available surplus store M65 as an option, nor will any civilian jacket be allowed as with the blue field uniform (add $50-100+ for the ABU, $25 for camo, $0 for blue field).

The difference in expense is, by no means "moot" in either case, but especially not for the blue field uniform.  It is probably at least 20-25% more for ABUs, depending on the source, and reduces the supply options for important parts.

[Phillip]

I foresee the current BDU boots being authorized for a CAP version of the ABU.