A predicament of some sorts.

Started by AngelWings, August 01, 2012, 09:05:04 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AngelWings

I've heard from multiple Seniors in my squadron (more than two) that there is a cadet on my staff who made a comment to a female cadet about how she is a girl and does not belong in CAP. I'm seriously about to blow a gasket at this point. She hasn't shown up to meetings recently, she hasn't participated much, and I know she already felt a bit odd for being the only female cadet in my squadron. The cadet in question has had problems before which were dealt with (personally, I find the decisions found to be so lax) and I am hearing he has had a few instances of a "lack of judgement" where he was being an ass to a few cadets.

The Seniors right now are not acting on it because the claim, however believable, has not been brought up by the cadet in question to anyone outside of her dad, and right now things are being taken too easily. What can I personally do to get this matter moving. I am unoffically (until offical boards are conducted before our current Cadet Commander leaves) taking command of the squadron, and I REFUSE to let this type of attitude continue on.

I apologize if this written in anger, but whenever I think about this, I practically go insane.

The Seniors have dealt with problems before with no trouble and no BS, but this one is giving them trouble. The Seniors who came to me are not looking to make a scene because they're not too sure of the correctness of everything said and they want to handle the matter without getting directly involved. Understandable as both have a very busy schedule and cannot afford to miss time out of work.

lordmonar

Comments of this type are UNACCEPTABLE and need to be dealt with ASAP!

Recommendations:

A.  Contact your CDC/CC and make sure they are the loop. 
B.  Contact the female cadet involved and with out referenceing the comments...find out her situation (why havent't you been to meetings, why don't you particpate).
C.  Contact the cadet on staff and counsel him on the aims and goals of CAP and point him to the appropriate CAP regulations that cover our non-discrimination policy and our core value of respect.
D.  Document said counselling on a CAPF 50.

Press on.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Garibaldi

Quote from: AngelWings on August 01, 2012, 09:05:04 PM
I've heard from multiple Seniors in my squadron (more than two) that there is a cadet on my staff who made a comment to a female cadet about how she is a girl and does not belong in CAP. I'm seriously about to blow a gasket at this point. She hasn't shown up to meetings recently, she hasn't participated much, and I know she already felt a bit odd for being the only female cadet in my squadron. The cadet in question has had problems before which were dealt with (personally, I find the decisions found to be so lax) and I am hearing he has had a few instances of a "lack of judgement" where he was being an ass to a few cadets.

The Seniors right now are not acting on it because the claim, however believable, has not been brought up by the cadet in question to anyone outside of her dad, and right now things are being taken too easily. What can I personally do to get this matter moving. I am unoffically (until offical boards are conducted before our current Cadet Commander leaves) taking command of the squadron, and I REFUSE to let this type of attitude continue on.

I apologize if this written in anger, but whenever I think about this, I practically go insane.

The Seniors have dealt with problems before with no trouble and no BS, but this one is giving them trouble. The Seniors who came to me are not looking to make a scene because they're not too sure of the correctness of everything said and they want to handle the matter without getting directly involved. Understandable as both have a very busy schedule and cannot afford to miss time out of work.

Quite a clear cut case of sexual harassment. Any time someone brings up gender, sex, race, color, creed, religion as a bias for participation, that's harassment. I don't blame the young lady one bit for not coming back to that sort of hostile environment. If he isn't brought down a peg, he is going to be a bigger problem in the future. Yank his butt into an office with the DCC, CC and anyone else you can think of and tell him in no uncertain terms that his career as a CAP cadet is about to end. Get a written statement from the young lady in question. This sort of behavior is inexcusable in a cadet. There has been more than one female cadet chased out of the "boy's club" because they believed "she didn't belong there."
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

lordmonar

Well...not technically sexual harassment.......but definatly gender discrimination.....and yes it needs to be stopped.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Patterson

Unfortunately, members must ether get "involved" or shut their mouths!!  That's all there is to it!

More harm is done by being the troll that says "I don't want to rock the boat but..." or "not to upset the situation" or etcetera!!!

My first response to something like this would be asking the member "who doesn't want to really get involved", "WHY ARE YOU INVOLVING ME"?? 

This may be one of a hundred different attempts to either set you up or failure or a ploy to get rid of a Cadet someone just does not like!!

As an incoming Squadron Commander, you need to back yourself up and remove yourself from this situation now.  You just admitted you are angry, and you only have a little tiny piece of hearsay at the most.

Everyone deserves due diligence from you.  Don't destroy the character of this Cadet based on the gossip of a fellow Senior Member.

Perhaps go find out why this young female Cadet no longer comes to meetings from her Mommy or Daddy first?!?!

Patterson

Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2012, 09:33:52 PM
Well...not technically sexual harassment.......but definatly gender discrimination.....and yes it needs to be stopped.

The OP has no facts, no first hand accounts and has yet to speak to the young female Cadet.  Bad move to state the young male Cadet is discriminatory without due process.  Lawsuits are made with much less these days!!

AngelWings

Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2012, 09:15:53 PM
Comments of this type are UNACCEPTABLE and need to be dealt with ASAP!

Recommendations:

A.  Contact your CDC/CC and make sure they are the loop. 
B.  Contact the female cadet involved and with out referenceing the comments...find out her situation (why havent't you been to meetings, why don't you particpate).
C.  Contact the cadet on staff and counsel him on the aims and goals of CAP and point him to the appropriate CAP regulations that cover our non-discrimination policy and our core value of respect.
D.  Document said counselling on a CAPF 50.

Press on.
Our CDC is in the loop and knows he would've said it, but is waiting of on something more founded. The CC just got back from NESA, so I'll make sure to inform him on the issue. He is a "status-quo" type of guy, meaning he doesn't want to tell someone to go.

I am going to try to find her number so I can call her and get her back so I can formally investigate this disturbing situation. There is a prospective female cadet that would end up his flight, so I am really worried about how it's going to go over with another girl.

I've counciled him before with the C/CC and CDC, to no good affect. He's thickheaded.

I'll make sure to document everything. A form was filled out last time by the CDC.

It's really getting on my nerves because everything is hinging on if there is a complaint from said cadet or not.

The cadet has had many attitude problems before. I know no one is setting me up for failure because the people who said it are people I know who like (and pushed for me at a rank not exactly suited for a C/CD to get the position). It'd be one thing if the cadet has had no provlems before, but that isn't the case.

Garibaldi

We had a cadet a number of years ago who pushed every button he could, and when brought up by the short hairs, challenged us to "find it in the regs where I can/can't _____" He was pushy, bossy, did not conform to any sort of structure than what was his own. The seniors were afraid of disciplining them because of his mother until I came along. I saw the behavior, counseled and counseled him, gave him every chance to change, wrote him up time and again, had the cadet commander do the same, and finally told him outright that this sort of behavior was unacceptable and that as DCC I would not tolerate it. The next infraction would result in a disciplinary board that would determine his fate.

Well, it finally happened, and his mother(who I had unseated as DCC at the request of the CC when I transferred in) went nuts, threatened to sue, saying that we were being "unfair to her little boy." I showed her all the documentation that I had asked for from the cadets who complained about him, complete with times and dates. She shut up, and took her "precious little boy" to far greener pastures.

Point is, GET DOCUMENTATION AS SOON AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. I cannot state that any more clearly. DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT. If this young lady has indeed decided that your unit is a hostile environment because of him, you need to do as we all have said: call her and find out why she isn't coming to meetings. If you find that it is indeed this kid and his attitude, then you need to fix it. Or him. Having several higher-ranking seniors in the same room while you tell him that his attitude is a detriment (and again, this is contingent on if she actually makes a claim against him) and needs to be fixed or he will be done in CAP just might do the trick.

Then again, it might not. Kids these days live in a fantasy world.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

AngelWings


Critical AOA

Quote from: Garibaldi on August 01, 2012, 10:05:58 PM
Point is, GET DOCUMENTATION AS SOON AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN. I cannot state that any more clearly. DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT.

As someone who has served in various leadership / management roles in the real world, documentation is very important and when it exists, especially in quantity, the decision is clear and the debate usually short.  While I do not work with cadets and have never been involved in a disciplinary situation within CAP, I do not see where the techniques would vary greatly. Yep... document.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw

AngelWings

I know documentation is important. As my mom said, it is he signed, she signed.

Critical AOA

Yes, that might be if it is just one time and there are no witnesses.  However, if there are other occasions of bad behavior and if there are witnesses then it becomes THEY signed, he signed.  Quite different.
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw

EMT-83

Sorry folks, there is no sexual harassment or sexual discrimination here.

A kid said something stupid to another kid. Like that's never happened before. Someone with sufficient testicular capacity needs to tell said kid to knock it off. No written complaints, no investigations; just do it and move on.

What's next, a 2B for calling someone a booger head?

AngelWings

#13
Quote from: EMT-83 on August 02, 2012, 12:33:48 AM
Sorry folks, there is no sexual harassment or sexual discrimination here.

A kid said something stupid to another kid. Like that's never happened before. Someone with sufficient testicular capacity needs to tell said kid to knock it off. No written complaints, no investigations; just do it and move on.

What's next, a 2B for calling someone a booger head?
I believe there is difference from calling someone a name or saying something stupid and singling out the only female cadet and saying she is not welcome. It's a HUGE deal. How would you feel if you were the only female and you were being targeted by your FLIGHT SERGEANT? She's also not extremely popular or well integrated into the corps (only because the other cadets misunderstand some of her medical problems and take it for weakness). I am not going to sit here and tolerate that. I know when someone is calling someone a name because they're being stupid and when someone is targeting someone else. We'll agree to disagree, I believe it is sexist and has no place in CAP.

Major Lord

Well, here we seem to have a textbook example of CAP people fighting fire with gasoline. The original post claims at the minimum, second hand knowledge of, what at worst, would be poor taste by a cadet. The horrors... In my experience, the severity of the alleged incidents grow with each retelling, until you have a cadet killing another one in a gunfight while using heroin, ripping the "do not remove" stickers off mattress tags, and conspiring to kill bald eagles. Nonetheless, our poster feels compelled to set a new tone of zero tolerance by exacerbating an issue (for which, no direct knowledge of, or witness too, has been cited) just for the sake of stirring the feces cauldron. Forgiving me for asking, but what the H**L is wrong with you people? Haven't any of you resolved personnel problems before without bringing in lawyers and boxing gloves? Deal with it, you are grown up boys and girls now, and if not, you should not be given command of anything larger than a sandbox.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Eclipse

#15
Quote from: AngelWings on August 01, 2012, 09:39:06 PM
Our CDC is in the loop and knows he would've said it, but is waiting of on something more founded.

Then you are done.  Stay out of it.

Quote from: AngelWings on August 01, 2012, 09:39:06 PM
The CC just got back from NESA, so I'll make sure to inform him on the issue. He is a "status-quo" type of guy, meaning he doesn't want to tell someone to go.

See above.

The staff are already aware.

You are not someone in a position of responsibility nor authority to act - i.e. it's not your business or your problem.

The staff are already aware.

This is not an emergency, nor does it not involve harassment or discrimination.  This is a comment by another cadet.  Assuming it was heard correctly
and made in a serious tone and not a sarcastic remark intended to convey the opposite message, then it should be dealt with discreetly and
only including the parties involved.  Unless this "other cadet" is in a position of authority to deny the female cadet in question access to
opportunity or resources, then there is no avenue for "discrimination".

The staff are already aware.

Here's the teachable moment.

Whether and if the unit CC chooses to take any action, and what that action may, or may not be, is not your concern, nor are you entitled
to be made aware of the the results.  Handled properly, no one but those directly involved will ever be contacted about this.  The fact that
you are hear looking for advice, or merely venting, indicates you might be expecting to escalate this is unless there is immediate and public
correction.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: Patterson on August 01, 2012, 09:37:04 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 01, 2012, 09:33:52 PM
Well...not technically sexual harassment.......but definatly gender discrimination.....and yes it needs to be stopped.

The OP has no facts, no first hand accounts and has yet to speak to the young female Cadet.  Bad move to state the young male Cadet is discriminatory without due process.  Lawsuits are made with much less these days!!
Dude....I was not talking to you....nor to the OP.

Go back and read my first post.....and what did it say?

It said....talk to the commander, talk to the female cadet and talk to the accused cadet.

Get off you high horse and crank it down a notch or two.

End of Message.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: AngelWings on August 01, 2012, 09:05:04 PMThe Seniors who came to me are not looking to make a scene because they're not too sure of the correctness of everything said and they want to handle the matter without getting directly involved.

I just re-read this.

Seniors do not bring problems of this nature to their cadets.  That is 100% inappropriate.

Is this is indeed the case, someone needs to have a discussion with them in regards to their proper role and the procedures for handling disciplinary
issues.

"That Others May Zoom"

AngelWings

Quote from: Eclipse on August 02, 2012, 03:14:13 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on August 01, 2012, 09:05:04 PMThe Seniors who came to me are not looking to make a scene because they're not too sure of the correctness of everything said and they want to handle the matter without getting directly involved.

I just re-read this.

Seniors do not bring problems of this nature to their cadets.  That is 100% inappropriate.

Is this is indeed the case, someone needs to have a discussion with them in regards to their proper role and the procedures for handling disciplinary
issues.
I couldn't agree with you more. As for your other post, I do feel (whether or not a regulation book or teaching says I am supposed to) responsibility for people in flights. Especially sexism, prejudice, and anything else meant to make a cadet feel like they are not welcome due to what they are.

Major Lord, I am not blowing anything up. I simply refuse to have cadet made to feel unwelcome, seeing how I am the C/CD and am moving to C/CC. I've talked with the cadet before, and I know the intent, if it truely happened, was only meant to be malicious. It's sexist, and I refuse to deal with it within my ranks. There is no overblowing of the story, and some people have tried to overblow to me bringing it back right to how it was originally told to me. I am not stirring any cauldron of feces, I am making sure I do not look like an absolute idiot trying to move into a situation I have no experience with. I don't deal with this often, and the cadet has many problems already. His attitude is piss poor, he tries to run the show and talk over people, and the worst part, I am not given the authority to "deal" with it! If it was a world where I can reprimand the kid for when he really screws up, I wouldn't have any problem. You're attitude towards this is coming off that I should blow the matter off because I am given power by the regulations to properly reprimand a thickheaded cadet who takes punishment like it is a joke.

It's not poor taste to tell someone they are unwelcome, it is at best, a malicious comment made to make them feel like they are <insert drum roll> unwelcome!

AngelWings

One thing to add, I am not saying the cadet did or didn't and am not looking for opinions on whether or not I should care about from the sounds of things is a malicious and degrading comment or not. I am looking for cold hard facts from the regulations and from prior knowledge on the best way to handle heading into the situation and making sure things are done. I am in her CoC, so right now I am doing the absolute best I can to resolve the issue.

I was brought up to not accept racism, sexism, religous hatred, blind hate, or any form of hatred or disliking that is not founded in facts. I am not accusing the cadet of saying this, but you [darn] well better bet if he did I am going to make sure it is dealt with.