Critical of leaders?

[754837]

Is it appropriate for CAP members to be publicly critical of CAP leaders, military leaders and elected officials?   
I know that membership in an organization does not take away individual rights.  To ask another way, is it appropriate in this forum to speak ill of an USAF general or the President?

[Extremepredjudice]

Is it appropriate for CAP members to be publicly critical of CAP leaders, military leaders and elected officials?   

No. I think it is in a regulation somewhere.

To ask another way, is it appropriate in this forum to speak ill of an USAF general or the President?

You could never prove Bag o doughnuts posted something without a physical witness.

[754837]

For what it is worth... I think that it is disrespectful to do so on a "discussion board for the Civil Air Patrol community" but then again I am a bit old fashioned on such matters.

[NIN]

Is it appropriate for CAP members to be publicly critical of CAP leaders, military leaders and elected officials?   
I know that membership in an organization does not take away individual rights.  To ask another way, is it appropriate in this forum to speak ill of an USAF general or the President?

Permissible? Probably. Smart? Not really. It has been determined that membership in CAP is a privilege,  not a right. Open criticism of elected leaders and CAP leaders could be determined to be prejudicial to good order& discipline.

[krnlpanick]

I think it is acceptable to do so as long as you are not libelous - you would be subject to the same regulations as any other author. If you say something about someone that is libel and they call you on it that is on you..

Basically, my recommendation would be temper your words carefully before you post anything that is critical of your leadership.

[krnlpanick]

You could never prove Bag o doughnuts posted something without a physical witness.

Uhmm.. Yes you can, it's really easy... IP Address logs hold up as evidence in criminal cases all the time..

[Extremepredjudice]

You could never prove Bag o doughnuts posted something without a physical witness.

Uhmm.. Yes you can, it's really easy... IP Address logs hold up as evidence in criminal cases all the time..

http://torrentfreak.com/judge-an-ip-address-doesnt-identify-a-person-120503/

There has been a few cases like this.

[krnlpanick]

Yes there are many cases like that - but there are also many cases where ip logging holds up as evidence in court. It also depends on the type of case. Cyber-Piracy != Civil Libel.. Just sayin.

[Extremepredjudice]

Yes there are many cases like that - but there are also many cases where ip logging holds up as evidence in court. It also depends on the type of case. Cyber-Piracy != Civil Libel.. Just sayin.

Please cite a case were they use Judge Brown's ruling and lose.

Let's move to PMs so we don't disturb this thread anymore.

[AngelWings]

No. Just like how you wouldn't be openly critical of a boss, the same basic reasons (except for firing of course) apply. Just like leaders shouldn't openly be critical of their men and women to the media. Keeping things internal makes things so much easier. The only real reason to be critical of a leader openly is to try to put pressure on them or get them removed from their position, or atleast from my experience.

[EMT-83]

For what it is worth... I think that it is disrespectful to do so on a "discussion board for the Civil Air Patrol community" but then again I am a bit old fashioned on such matters.

There is nothing old fashioned about showing courtesy and respect towards members of the organization.

Just because it's blatantly missing on this forum doesn't mean it's totally disappeared. At least I hope it hasn't.

[abdsp51]

IP addresses can have been used and upheld as evidence in criminal cases.  The link used was for civil court as that is where a vast majority of you download cases end up. 

And as far as proving stuff, a user id signature block etc are enough to "prove" that someone did post an item.  Case in point a Marine was discharged for comments he said about the President on his Facebook page. 

It can be considered highly unprofessional to slam or speak ill of leadership in a public forum.  I did it many years ago and I got my rear end dragged into my commander's office to find out what was going on.  There is a time and place to be critical of leadership and any decisions that the make, but a public forum is not the place to do it. 

We have had members in hot water for some things that they have posted here and I can think of one case in particular and only suspect on another.  Bottom line as many have said if you can't or won't say it to the person if they were in front of you don't post it. 

[754837]

Our Commander in Chief, regardless of our individual political opinions, should not be criticized in this forum.

[FW]

CAP Talk has a code of conduct of which the mods enforce very well.  "Criticizing" anyone is considered, IMO, a violation of the code however, there is nothing wrong with giving criticism on actions or policies of Civil Air Patrol or its leadership.  It's what makes this forum tick.  As far as our president is concerned; his actions and policies are open to critical commentary too.  There is no regulation prohibiting open and honest discusion or, our feelings about the happenings of our organization or country... As long as we keep it civil.

[abdsp51]

CAP Talk has a code of conduct of which the mods enforce very well.  "Criticizing" anyone is considered, IMO, a violation of the code however, there is nothing wrong with giving criticism on actions or policies of Civil Air Patrol or its leadership.  It's what makes this forum tick.  As far as our president is concerned; his actions and policies are open to critical commentary too.  There is no regulation prohibiting open and honest discusion or, our feelings about the happenings of our organization or country... As long as we keep it civil.

Unless you are in the Armed Forces.

[whatevah]

Is it appropriate for CAP members to be publicly critical of CAP leaders, military leaders and elected officials?   
I know that membership in an organization does not take away individual rights.  To ask another way, is it appropriate in this forum to speak ill of an USAF general or the President?

Not appropriate, unless you have a really really good way of it being "on topic". This site is unique in that we do not have a "chit chat" section. Anything that wouldn't be considered as a meeting topic at your average squadron probably doesn't belong here. And politics are a big no-no unless it directly involves CAP.

But regardless of "proving" who made a post, members have been punished in one way or another for things they've said on forums. I even know of a cadet officer that from being weeks away from being cadet commander to getting a forced transfer to another unit.

[RogueLeader]

Our Commander in Chief, regardless of our individual political opinions, should not be criticized in this forum.

Last I checked, we do not have a chain of command that is topped by the president. It stops with the national commander.   That said, it is in poor taste to do so on s forum such as this. My opinions are just that: mine.  I will not normally make such comments. I may and will discuss specific actions that have direct impact such as: congress moves cap to homeland security. I will not say that Gen so-and-so is a moron for suggesting we get moved to hs.  But always in a professional tone giving them the honor and respect they have earned.

[spacecommand]

As these forums are anonymous for the most part, there there are ones who publicly places their name in their signature, it is hard to know if one is a former member, current member, or not event a member of all to be critical of CAP leadership.

Someone could make an account and say they don't like XYZ leadership and cite point by point why they don't like him, and be a former member or not even a CAP member at all (another person from another agency who has worked with XYZ leadership). 

Yes this is a public forum, but this isn't an official CAP operated website, while the tag is "a discussion for the Civil Air Patrol community" there's no requirement on CAPTalk that a member of CAPtalk actually be a member of Civil Air Patrol nor are there ways to verify if a person is or not part of CAP.   

Any case, for me, it depends on who's doing the writing and what's being written.

[SarDragon]

Actually, membership verification is easier than you think.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Last I checked, we do not have a chain of command that is topped by the president. It stops with the national commander.   That said, it is in poor taste to do so on s forum such as this. My opinions are just that: mine.  I will not normally make such comments. I may and will discuss specific actions that have direct impact such as: congress moves cap to homeland security. I will not say that Gen so-and-so is a moron for suggesting we get moved to hs.  But always in a professional tone giving them the honor and respect they have earned.

Nonetheless, as the Auxiliary of the Air Force, we should not be publicly critical of the Commander-in-Chief...regardless one's personal feelings toward him/her.  This country is polarised way too much as it is; one thing I like about CAP is that it is relatively apolitical when it comes to national politics (internal politics is another matter).  There are times when, at a CAP function, if a discussion has gone political I either remove myself from it or, in a couple of cases when I have been senior in rank to the others, I have said to stop it until you're off CAP time (one of the rare occasions I have actually "pulled rank").

Whether or not Barack Obama wins another term, or Mitt Romney wins office, whoever wins is still the CinC.

Even though I have ambivalent feelings about some elements of our leadership, I recognise that is what they are - leaders set over me - and it is not my place to say "Gen so-and-so is a moron" (to borrow your phrase) on a public forum.

My dad always said "don't say something behind someone's back you wouldn't say to their face."  I try to live by that.

However, if we were ever moved away from the Air Force, I would make a statement - my resignation.