Academic eligibility for the CP?

[lordmonar]

Ok, so what happens when you ask an 18 year old cadet to see his report card and he informs you that he legally dropped out of school? Are you going to kick him out? What about a 20 year old cadet in college who refuses to show you?

No...because he legally dropped out of school.  If he dropped out illegally....i.e. just quit...then yes out he goes.....and he can't join as a SM because a high school deploma is a requirment for membership.

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

Well of course we just see this rule being used all the time don't we.  Of all the things we want to complain about with a commander having too much power......I think you are juct picking at straws.

[Eclipse]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

And yet it is not, because the regulations do not say that a cadet must be enrolled in school. They can not become SM's without a HS diploma, but a cadet under the law can drop out of high school. So when that cadet files suit against CAP, I hope your uniform looks nice to testify at.

Seriously - no weight to the argument, so you wave the "lawsuit flag"?  Not likely.

The reg says "(5) Failure to maintain a satisfactory academic school record."  Dropping out, legally or otherwise, certainly meet the definition of academic failure,  nor does it set the proper example for other cadets.  One CC may feel it's ground for termination, one may not, and higher HQ would be free to override the decision.  That's how it works when the regs are written, on purpose, in a subjective way.

[lordmonar]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

The leadership principle still apply.
The same sort of "personal involvement" crosses over into a lot of jobs.
Get a DUI and you may lose your job.
Bounce a check and you may lose your job.
If the job requirement is for you to go to school and maintain good grades....well they will ask for your transcripts.
Other agencies and organisations do this as well.  My son's soccer coach makes all the boys bring in their report cards.
My daughters viola instructor does the same.

We may not be the military.....but we an auxillary of the military....and we have standards....the are published and anyone can read them.  Now if you want to argue that the standards are too high or not high enough....okay let's talk.  But if you want to argue that we can't determine who we want in our organisation and don't have the right to back that up......I don't think you are going to get too far.

[bflynn]

The leadership principle still apply.

No, there are different ways to lead when you cannot force followers to follow.  At best, you get compliance out of volunteers.

There's also a huge difference between leadership and administration.

[lordmonar]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

And yet it is not, because the regulations do not say that a cadet must be enrolled in school. They can not become SM's without a HS diploma, but a cadet under the law can drop out of high school. So when that cadet files suit against CAP, I hope your uniform looks nice to testify at.

A.....CAP is not a right....you can't sue us to join.
B......If they have dropped of school....you should not be in CAP.  Sorry...that's how I feel.  Of course there are always exceptions to the rule....such as I said if you have legally qualified to drop out of school....then those same circumstances will probably make me happy....but in Nevada......if you qualifiy for one of them you probably don't have time for CAP anyway....and the issue would be moot.

[lordmonar]

The leadership principle still apply.

No, there are different ways to lead when you cannot force followers to follow.  At best, you get compliance out of volunteers.

There's also a huge difference between leadership and administration.

The leadership pricinple that you take an active intrest in your subordinates and wish for them to grow even out side the scope of the work enviornment is still a valid principle.

The tools are different in a volunteer organisation because we don't have the coercive element of military or employment leadership.  But taking an interest and taking a sense of ownership of your subordinates has nothing to do with leadership by force.....in fact if has everything to do with leadership by insperation!

[ßτε]

Huh, and yet Eclipse thinks that it is "maybe" ok to kick that kid out. This is just another regulation that places too much power in the hands of potentially untrained 'commanders' and is way to open to interpretation.

It's the subjective call of the respective commander.

And yet it is not, because the regulations do not say that a cadet must be enrolled in school. They can not become SM's without a HS diploma, but a cadet under the law can drop out of high school. So when that cadet files suit against CAP, I hope your uniform looks nice to testify at.

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Also, a clarification. A HS diploma is not required for membership for a SM. It is required for promotion to officer grades, however.

[lordmonar]

Also, a clarification. A HS diploma is not required for membership for a SM. It is required for promotion to officer grades, however.

You are right of course.....so you can join and remain a SMWOG or CAP NCO.

[NCRblues]

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Cite?

That quote is not in 35-3 or 52-16 so...? Unless I am missing it

EDIT: Nevermind... CAPR 39-2

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

[FlyTiger77]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Perhaps it is telling that the leader of a squadron is called a "commander" and not the "squadron manager," "squadron supervisor," "squadron administrator" or "lead squadron technician."

To me, it indicates that as an auxilliary to a military branch, those who put together the program had in mind a certain mindset for the person entrusted to enforce the standards of the organization which all members agree to abide when they initially join the program and renew their membership.

[lordmonar]

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Cite?

That quote is not in 35-3 or 52-16 so...? Unless I am missing it

EDIT: Nevermind... CAPR 39-2

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

No....but 35-3 gives you grounds to terminate the membership if not satisfactory progressing academicly.

So...we are back to square one.....the only argument can be "what is definition of satisfactory"?

[Eclipse]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Perhaps it is telling that the leader of a squadron is called a "commander" and not the "squadron manager," "squadron supervisor," "squadron administrator" or "lead squadron technician."

An excellent point - the head of a Boy Scout Troop is called a "Leader", the head of an echelon in CAP is a "Commander" - those words have specific
connotations and meaning, and in a CAP parlance the authority is based in regulations and the constitution.

[lordmonar]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Perhaps it is telling that the leader of a squadron is called a "commander" and not the "squadron manager," "squadron supervisor," "squadron administrator" or "lead squadron technician."

An excellent point - the head of a Boy Scout Troop is called a "Leader", the head of an echelon in CAP is a "Commander" - those words have specific
connotations and meaning, and in a CAP parlance the authority is based in regulations and the constitution.

Actaully the head of a scout troop is a "MASTER"......but your point is taken.
The lead scout in a troop is the Senior Patrol Leader.

[Eclipse]

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

A hair to split for the argument, and not relevant to the discussion at hand, other than to support 35-3.

Anyone with "cadet" on their ID card is required to be performing satisfactorily in the subjective view of his commander, subject to remediation, delay of grade, and even termination in extreme cases.

[Eclipse]

Actually the head of a scout troop is a "MASTER"......but your point is taken.
The lead scout in a troop is the Senior Patrol Leader.

Ugh, it's been a while.

[arajca]

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Cite?

That quote is not in 35-3 or 52-16 so...? Unless I am missing it

EDIT: Nevermind... CAPR 39-2

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

No....but 35-3 gives you grounds to terminate the membership if not satisfactory progressing academicly.

So...we are back to square one.....the only argument can be "what is definition of satisfactory"?

IMHO, that's for mom and dad to decide. If a cadet was getting 'D's before and gets 'C' while in CAP, which makes mom and dad happy, is that satisfactory? On the flip side, the cadet who isg getting 'A's gets a 'B', which makes mom and dad unhappy, is that unsatisifctory? During our parental discussions, we point out the academic preformance requirement and let the parents and future cadets know the mom and dad make that call.

[Eclipse]

D's to C's are an improvement, and A's and B's are still more then satisfactory, neither situation would really fall into the area we're discussing, which would be more the "B's to D's" situation with the excuse that homework is not being done because of drill practice.

[lordmonar]

Actually the regulations do say just that. "Enrolled in or graduated from a private, public, home school or college program with a satisfactory record of academic achievement." So if a cadet is no longer in high school and doesn't have a diploma or equivalent, the cadet no longer meets this requirement.

Cite?

That quote is not in 35-3 or 52-16 so...? Unless I am missing it

EDIT: Nevermind... CAPR 39-2

And that is INITIAL membership...not continued membership.

No....but 35-3 gives you grounds to terminate the membership if not satisfactory progressing academicly.

So...we are back to square one.....the only argument can be "what is definition of satisfactory"?

IMHO, that's for mom and dad to decide. If a cadet was getting 'D's before and gets 'C' while in CAP, which makes mom and dad happy, is that satisfactory? On the flip side, the cadet who isg getting 'A's gets a 'B', which makes mom and dad unhappy, is that unsatisifctory? During our parental discussions, we point out the academic preformance requirement and let the parents and future cadets know the mom and dad make that call.

All well and good......but if Cadet Snuff is getting a string of D's I may be inclined to drop him from the program anyways.....but only after a conversation with the parents.  So no one is takeing them out of the loop....but as a squadron commander I would be maintaining the standards of the organisation.

Of course my 2b actions would be subject to wing approval and the all important appeals process.

[abdsp51]

This issue of personal responsibility for subordinates is something largely missed by people without military experience,

I get that very well - I was in the military.  But this isn't the military.  People only pretend that it is.

Then you should know and grasp the concept of responsibility for ones subordinates without questioning it.  CAP may not be the military, but it is a para-military organization and is funded through the AF like it or not.  There are standards that in place and should be adhered to with a visual of the entire dynamic.

As a supervisor it was policy that all new airmen were not allowed to pursue off-duty education until they did their Stan-eval and cdcs.  Then and only then were they allowed to pursue schooling.

And no here has said flat out kick them out for sub-par performance, but to look at the facts before doing acting.  IMO if there is a cadet under the age of 18 who is struggling in school and it CAP is having a negative impact on it then they need to take time off of CAP and focus on school.  As long as a cadet is showing improvement in an academic arena if that is a trouble spot then I would work with them and their parent/s. 

[bflynn]

There are standards that in place and should be adhered to with a visual of the entire dynamic.

If you go back through this discussion, you'll find that there is no disagreement of the standard, only how to achieve it and whose judgement of "satisfactory" to use.

CAP, especially old timers here, consistently fails to recognized the volunteer aspect of the organization.