Help on Sr Program?

[DNall]

Contrary to most of my discussion here, this is NOT strategic discussion about the future of CAP. This is me needing advice on a run of the mill local problem.

Here's my situation... came into Sq in Oct. Consistently there were 8 cadets, the Sq CC & the Admin/Pers/TCO. 3 other cadets that'd show up sometimes, as well as a couple newer senior members that didn't know crap. The cadets sucked, & I agreed to come aboard as DCC with a fairly free hand to put the cadet program straight, that I'd take that weight fully in hand w/ minimal support from the Pers/TCO, and in doing so free the CC from that concern so he could focus all his energy on rebuilding the non-existent adult side of the house.

Cadet side:
Well I'm doing my part. The Fall was remedial & now we're gunning up for a fast paced Spring, already got most of a basic flight ready to start. Brought back a 20yo C/CMSgt so he can get his Mitchell knocked out before he turns 21 this summer. He'll be Flt CC for that basic flight w/ a promising young NCO under him for development. That Chief's younger brother is a C/Maj that's taking C/CC till he leaves for basic this Summer. Moved a 12yo C/2Lt to FltCC for the existing folks. They're mostly run by two NCOICs who focus on color guard & ES. Got a SrA assigned as recruiting & retention that I'll also tag w/ some PAO functions. A decent 1Sgt that'll also be gone to basic this summer. We'll be at 25-30 active before all my leadership (and me too) disappear to active duty. So obviously the other objective is growing some follow on leaders & having them ready to take the reigns. I'm hoping to develop that 20yo chief to take over DCC when I leave. I do think it's good to take a break from the cadet program when you come over to the dark side, but I think that role might be the only way to keep the hooks in him initially. I'd want to move him to other things after a year, but I'll be gone then so not my call. Anyway, cadet program well in hand.

Meanwhile, I got people, but no senior program. I got of course the Sq CC, Personnel officer, & myself. Then there's six others mostly active & they're a diverse group we'll call it, but well qualified.
Here's what I got to work with:

1) Captain, literally mows lawns for the school district & nice guy been in CAP a while but not always active. Not exactly a genius, can hanger fly with the best of em, but not so much teach a class in the material. He's a volunteer firefighter, SaRTech II, & BTDT GTL. Great asset, not an instructor.

2) 2Lt, prior-service Army NCO aviation observer on OH58s. Pilot 175 hours fixed-wing, owns a plane he keeps on our airport (which is a big thing cause there's a five year waiting list for hanger space & all the new stuff under construction is already spoken for). He wants to get Mission Pilot, but I got no one in-house to train him. If I don't get some kind of program together soon he'll leave.

3) 2Lt, prior service AF MSgt, LVN, wants to get observer & real active in aircrew, got no one to train him. He's helped out a bit w/ cadets, but not all that interested in it. Also with the get a program together or he'll leave.

4) Brand new still filling out the paperwork prior-service AF Captain, PA-flight nurse. Worked at New Orleans Airport during Katrina for his hospital packaging patients to ship to Houston. He can't commit to anything more than Tuesday night meetings & we had to talk him into that, which was mostly about not having to drive his two kids all the way over & make a whole second trip back to pick them up. Don't know much more about him... other than I need to see a DD214 based on an issue another Sq & the CGAux had last year w/ someone else claiming to be a PA.

5) 1Lt, older than dirt, Army in Korea. Sneaks in w/ my cadets when I'm not looking to do a monthly military history deal, which is fine within reason. Goes a little silly with it though. Member of Sons of Confederate Veterans (as am I on paper somewhere in box), which is again fine till he starts doing the 'were slaves really treated bad' bit to cadets & the squared away 15yo AFROTC cadet (black girl) doesn't show up again. Listen I'm from an old southern family & have a degree in American military history with focus on the civil war era. He wasn't being racist, but what he said would have offended a lot of people. He doesn't do ES, but drives cadets at times, which I guess makes him transportation officer even though the CC whips out the reports.

6) 2Lt, just promoted, uhh how do I put this... semi-retarded (in the legal/medical sense) kid thinks he's a cadet most of the time. Comes from a weird adoptive foster family which accounts for two other cadets that really need our help. This guy though is disruptive at times, creates dangerous situations around cadets a lot, & generally a PITA & always in my way. He'd like to do some GT, but I don't trust him near anyone or anything & am not very happy he got promoted.

Recruiting:
So 9 total counting me right? I got three other prior-service officers I know form local politics that I'd like to bring in, but they're big gun type folks that can do a LOT for us if we can get the hooks in. We've been holding back on that till we can get the facility somewhere closer to not falling in on us & some kind of program to bring them in to. I'm sure I can recruit half a dozen other average folks at that point too, but that does nothing but bring more pressing to have a program for them.

Outside help:
I can get aircrew training for those two guys mentioned. There's a senior Sq about 30mins away that I can schedule a wknd to bring those two guys & myself over & they'll do it for us, but still nothing for Tuesday nights. I can't carry the whole cadet program thru rebuilding by myself while also rebuilding the adult side & taking SOS too. I already do CAP for 4-5 hours every Tuesday night & literally every single weekend - I hadn't had a CAP free wknd since Christmas & don't see one on the schedule till my sister gets married at the end of April & then maybe have one or two weekends in May that haven't filled YET.

What the hell do I do? I'm not a senior programs or ES training type officer. I can struggle thru the basics & got plenty of leadership background... if I stepped off cadet programs I could effectively execute an adult program designed by someone else, but I don't know that I can design one myself, or at least I don't know where to start, plus I can't step back from cadet programs & I have obligations w/ Gp level cadet programs too. So like I said, what do I do to make this thing happen?

[Smokey]

Makes a disfunctional family seem like the Cleaver family (u know...Leave to Beaver) !!!!!!

I hope you have the patience of Job, because you are about to loose your mind with that situation.

But.....I'm sure we can all find a way to help you out.

Let's go gang...are we up to the challenge??

[DNall]

I was warned by PM those individual profiles might be unidentifiable & this being a public forum... Well, it's not that public, and sorry in advance if any of those people hear about it & get offended. It's 100% accurate & listen I'm gone to Active Duty this summer so it's not like anyone can really slap me around too much. I'd appreciate any help or ideas you guys can offer.

[airdad]

you answered your own question in the last sentence.  Do not try to do this all yourself, you'll be a burnout before you even realize it, then we will be down 1 more asset. You are in a wing with groups-call upon your group PD (you do have one, right?!) to help.  Getting the local senior squadron involved woith your aircrew people is absolutely the right way to start for them, but you need further outside (or inside) help. Inside help, you say? If you can either recruit a member in the "gee, I'd like to join, but I don't know what I could do" category, or find someone currently in house (unlikely, I know)take that person and with the help of Group PD, turn that new member into your PD person.  Of course it will take time, so that's why you need the immediate (and perhaps ongoing) help of Group PD until the newbie squares away.  One last option, if it is workable, is to "borrow" someone from a nearby squadron to give you a little help.  Hope that this at least gives you some ideas, and good luck-if you ever want to bounce something off me, pm me-I have one of my master ratings in PD, and I'd be happy to work w/you.

[RiverAux]

Although its a little risky, you might ask your senior members to go to the senior squadron meetings and training events until they get up to speed and hope they come back to your squadron since its closer once they've got some quals out of the way.   Its more than likely the aircrew guys will be flying with them anyway since you don't have a plane of your own so they might as well get aquainted. 

[DNall]

We do have a brand new Gp PD officer who I like & respect a lot. He was an AF pilot in Vietnam (FAC - O1/O2), SS/DFC/AM stacked in clusters. He just came over from GaWg & is getting acquainted w/ the PD program, he's also two hours away & busy starting his own Sq & helping another get stood back up. Realistically, he can't be down here in person, but maybe could help a bit by email. The only other person I trust in the PD field is covered up with his own problems right now. I can't even think of anyone else, but I'll give it a harder look.

Bootstrapping one of these guys isn't a bad idea if I can get them supported from outside & back them up myself. That solves the delegation issue, but they'd still be in the same boat as me... that being they could struggle thru & execute a program handed to them, but can't design it themselves & are short instructors to make it happen.

There's nobody around us that really seems strong. There's a lot of people working their tails off w/ struggling units probably just as bad as mine. The Gp staff is full of great specialists, all 15 of them to cover a Gp the size of Iowa w/ 1000 members (on the books). I thought things were in bad shape in the 90s, but now that seems good. I really think we have better & much more qualified people to work with now (ie HUGE potential), but getting this working seems Herculean.

Although its a little risky, you might ask your senior members to go to the senior squadron meetings and training events until they get up to speed and hope they come back to your squadron since its closer once they've got some quals out of the way.   Its more than likely the aircrew guys will be flying with them anyway since you don't have a plane of your own so they might as well get aquainted. 

The Sr Sq doesn't have a plane either last I looked. I think we got 4 or 5 in the Gp & they stay on the rotate. I was going to try sending them to another Sq outright cause I didn't think we were doing them justice, but now we got enough people it seems like we should be able to get a program going. Part of the reason they've stayed with us is a meeting night they can make, that & me saying we'd get something going.

[TDHenderson]

I would strongly recommend reaching out to that Senior Squadron about combining forces into a Composite unit.  You are too small to make it on your own.  Consolidating resources between the two units will help ensure your survival.
   

[DNall]

I don't think we're quite that bad. Maybe when I showed up, but we get 12-15 cadets now & will be at 25-30 later this spring. We're at 9 adults & can grow that to 12-15 if there's an established program for them. I think we're plenty viable, it's the programming & mgmt of the adult side we're missing. I maybe can work out the mgmt side, but the programming has me for a loop.

[Hawk200]

I would strongly recommend reaching out to that Senior Squadron about combining forces into a Composite unit.  You are too small to make it on your own.  Consolidating resources between the two units will help ensure your survival.

Maybe, maybe not. There are plenty of senior units in existence because those Seniors don't want to deal with cadets.

Although its a little risky, you might ask your senior members to go to the senior squadron meetings and training events until they get up to speed and hope they come back to your squadron since its closer once they've got some quals out of the way.   Its more than likely the aircrew guys will be flying with them anyway since you don't have a plane of your own so they might as well get aquainted. 

Not a bad idea. Just phrase it as a suggestion. Practical idea, as long as that unit is fairly squared away.

[RiverAux]

The question is whether or not the squadron wants to develop into a flying unit or stay a ground-based cadet-focused unit.  The type of program you need to attract and maintain adults for a flying unit (and to get you in the rotation for one of the Group's planes) would be vastly different than a cadet-based program where you only need to bring  in planes very once in a while for o-flights.  

I'm not saying one is any better than the other, but as you've been known to say, it is hard being all things to all people.  

[TDHenderson]

Hawk200, true but if managed properly (there is a DCC for a reason) the two units can share the common positions (LG, Trans, Safety, Finance, etc) to lesson the burdon as opposed to having two struggling to staff them all.

It would not work for everyone sure but it is a way to help save one/two units that cannot survive alone.  We have too many units in this situation.

[SAR-EMT1]

I dont exactly want to suggest that your squadron cant  fuction on its own. However there ARE advantages of sending the senior aviators to that SENIOR Sq. temporarily as you mentioned.
My advice is to get a PD program assigned to get your new guys up to speed asap. - level 1, CPPT, ECI13. The more they feel involved the less they want to wander.
As for your um..'special' Lt. Have one in my squadron too. (no its not me  )
We assigned him as the unit historian / photographer. It gives him a track, albiet out of the way. And he can mingle with his camera to his hearts content. He wont rise above Lt. though.

The unit Im with. Its my unit CC - former AF NCO-CAP Captain
A retired Army Command E-9 -CAP 1Lt: Supply/safety/ MLO.
The Wing IG (Lt.Col)  -lives 10 minutes away and basically serves as our Legal Beagle, as an advisor and Comms. A 'special' CAP Lt who serves as Historian, and finally my 1lt self: Personel/Admin/TCO/DCC
We are small too,  the point I want to make is: with all the hats, we all stay busy/ interested.
You say your aviators dont want to work with cadets ok; but what about serving as a safety officer or Logistics or what not? Example: that AF Captain would be a great DP officer.

[DNall]

The Sr Sq in question was until recently a flight. They are too good to be called a flying club, but they are all air related & don't want anything to do with cadets on a day-to-day basis. MY people are okay with cadets, that's just not what they want to be doing in the program. Some of my people are already driving to get to me & aren't going further, for others it's the night we meet on... even if I had the power to combine, we'd lose half my unit in the process & the result still wouldn't be a viable comp Sq.

I got I think 22 Seniors & 31 Cadets on the books. Some of those seniors aren't coming back no matter what we do, some are on a break for varrious reasons, couple have work conflicts. I got 9 adults (counting me) actually showing up even w/ no program & little for six of them to do. We get a decent program & some of those people on the books will come back, and we'll be able to recruit quite a few more. That's not a problem. The cadet side is in pretty good shape. We're quite viable. I don't like some of those on-the-books folks that may come back, but I'll be gone & this is about leaving a strong unit behind, not a comfortable place for me to visit on leave.

I do have my people assigned jobs of course & everyone has done Lvl 1, & are signed up for AFIADL13, already been to SLS. We're doing the advancement PD. That's not a problem, it's also not interesting or regular programming. I'll think about that historian gig, but honestly the goal there & otherwise is to seperate from cadets to program that will keep them busy, happy, & out of my way unless I ask for specific help. There comes a point with a cadet unit that also tries to do ES that you need an established adult side or you start to top out & get unmanagable. That's what I really need to get fixed, that & overall unit health so I can leave it knowing it'll be okay.

[ZigZag911]

Dennis, a couple of thoughts:

1) can you 'borrow' one or two seniors from the senior squadron to set up a PD program and/pr mentor staff officers for your unit? even if they did not come to meetings, but put some time in on training activities or staff support for your people, that should help

2) I assume you & your Squadron CC have discussed all this....has your CC talked to group CC?? some ideas might originate with group staff

3) any chance of getting any of your inactive folks to mentor the newer ones, again even if they aren't able to get to meetings?

It sounds like you've worked wonders with that squadron....some times you need to leave it to the 'next generation' and hope for the best!

[DNall]

Borrow... maybe, not from them, again they're new. They have a good PAO & specialize in aircrew, narrow resource to tap, that's it. It's a big group, but I don't off hand know of anyone I want in here. Most Sqs are dealing with their own problems & it seems like all of CAP in in rebuilding & fighting to hold their own. I can take a good look around though & see what other help might be out there.

My CC... yeah, repeatedly - some of this thread is frustration obviously. I first visited in Aug & made an agreeement that I'd take the DCC job for six months, carry the cadet program on my back, CC would be free to build a stand alone Sr Pgm. First month he needed to trust me with cadets, okay reasonable. Second he needed to recruit, didn't happen; third assigned an inactive member as PD (still hadn't seen this person since I been there), fourth assigned an inactive member as DCS (seen him once flying cadets, hadn't been to a meeting since I been there, on a break for a few reasons & that's best), Where are we fifth, gotta fix the facilities (worked half a day & quit), holidays have to take a break; sixth busy recruiting this one guy that doesn't have any time to give so can't help with this. Feb is month seven, this is the target where things were supposed to be operational & I hadn't seen them begin yet.

We meet monthly behind closed doors for me to update him on where we are with cadet programs & where we're going - not that he doesn't already know. After I make the case for me doing my part, then I ask how it's going on the Sr program (knowing very well it's not) & get some new thing. Now, I've been doing the PD work informally for the guys we got, and trying to keep their morale high enough they'll give us some more time, but that's not going to hold out much longer. You know how you lead superiors right? with gentle suggestions, well developed programs supported by the troops you lay in front of them ready to execute, & promise something while asking for something else & deliver on your part so they feel obligated. Long as you're tactful it works well, and they're free to reign you in at any time.

The Gp CC has heard a couple time questions from me on my own progression that said I was asking Gp staff cause we didn't have a local officer in that position. That got me chastised a bit and inactive people that I've literally never once seen moved around on a chart. Policy on the ground is the unit has to look good to the outside world & we don't ask for help.

I really like my commander personally by the way, just highly frustrated nothing is getting done, or even tried, despite our agreement & how hard I've worked & am working to carry my end.

Inactives... honestly most of these folks are pretty useless. Most joined with their kids & now that they're gone they parents aren't coming back. How do I put the rest of this tactfully... based on how the Sq got to where it is & the history there, I'm not sure you want all these people back. A couple would be good if seperated from teh others & given strong guidance, but you don't want a return to what was.

[davedove]

The Gp CC has heard a couple time questions from me on my own progression that said I was asking Gp staff cause we didn't have a local officer in that position. That got me chastised a bit and inactive people that I've literally never once seen moved around on a chart. Policy on the ground is the unit has to look good to the outside world & we don't ask for help.

Sounds like you've got a Commander who is more concerned about how things look on paper than what's reality.  If you don't have the staff at the Squadron, you HAVE to get help from Group or even Wing; that's what they are for!

And just because a name is in a slot doesn't mean the job is getting done, as you can easily attest.

I don't know what to tell you.  You can't do it all yourself and he doesn't want you to get outside help.  That's a definite no win situation.

[DNall]

Right, that's about the ballgame, now how do I work around it & make it happen anyway. Let me simplify a bit...

If I were starting a new unit a hundred miles away from the nearest CAP member, had some people together, but no idea what to do, just call this a senior unit cause I got cadets taken care of. Not going to have a plane, group I got isn't all interested in ES, most are prior-service & looking to continue service in some way but don't really know what that is & I got no one to show them.

Thanks Wg for a copy of the regs & give you a call when we have enough people to move from flight to sq status. Okay, no what do I do? I don't know how to set up a senior program, what to present, how ot pull a group together that have diverse interests, who I can put somewhere that can lead this effort. Walk me thru the steps to bootstrap this up from the inside as much as possible. what do I present, how do I do that w/ little to no help the whole thing...

[lordmonar]

Well...

You already shot down the correct answer...which is call group/wing and ask for help.

If you have people who want training...you go up the chain and request it.

I can't think of anything other than that.

If your commander is the road block...go around him....yes....go around him.

If you get yelled at....take your lumps and do it anyway.

But you have to be prepared for the consequence.

You my be the target of reprisals...your command my quit...or you may just tired and burn out.

Sorry, I can't come up with a better answer.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Could you grass-cutting captain fill in as DC Seniors?  Does he know the PD program enough to counsel and mentor officers with something beyond his BTDT stories?

Hook your low-time but airplane-owning (I hate him) pilot up with the senior squadron for flight time and exercise training.  He needs way more hours to talk MP status, but let him talk to the other zipper-suited heroes.  Menwhile, consider him or the AF NCO as your replacement as DCC.

BY ALL MEANS check ALL DD-214's when somebody claims active duty.  I have seen guys try to get in CAP whose last duty assignment was at Ft. Leavenworth as a Gravel Production Technician.  When I commanded a Guard battalion, I caught two guys who had forged entries onto their DD-214's.  I told the recruiter that the next guy I caught with a forged or altered DD-214, I would take to the local prosecutor and charge them criminally.  The warning must have worked, since I never got another.  

Lt. Special... Can he keep up logs?  Make simple entries onto forms without drooling on them?  If he gets training from Captain Grasscutter, could he be used for groundskeeping or janitorial duties?  Give him a pretentious title, like "Facility Officer" or something.  Can he run a copier?  If he can't handle any of those simple tasks, you'll just have to take the loss and send him to Wing as the Chief of Staff.

[DNall]

No that's fair enough. That's about where I was when I started the thread. I'm trying to figure out how to informally make some stuff happen. The CC's not a bad guy, I'd actually say he's overly nice & not really moving on anything. It's not hard to bend him around to get his consent for things internally. I just don't have the time or lots of ideas on how to do it myself & he doesn't want me going around him if it makes us look less than great, which is understandable, but not always good.

Does he know the PD program enough to counsel and mentor officers with something beyond his BTDT stories?

To answer that directly w/ nothing between the lines, No & No. He was DCC at one poit before & that's part of the problem I'm fixing.

Hook your low-time but airplane-owning (I hate him) pilot up with the senior squadron for flight time and exercise training.  He needs way more hours to talk MP status, but let him talk to the other zipper-suited heroes.  Meanwhile, consider him or the AF NCO as your replacement as DCC.

He's got like 7500hrs in helos, is pilot rated in them, and did the observer job in the Army, so might be a bit dif than a lot of MP candidates, but yeah he does need to keep building hours. Needs scanner & Fm5 on the way to MP anyway, & the other guy needs scanner thru to observer. Do all that training on wknds across the way & the flying with them also.

Have to keep an eye on them for DCC, but it's not something either is real interested in, neither had a troop commanding kind of job either, so that's marginal. That C/CMSgt going Sr would make a better Leadership Officer than DCC though.

BY ALL MEANS check ALL DD-214's when somebody claims active duty.  I have seen guys try to get in CAP whose last duty assignment was at Ft. Leavenworth as a Gravel Production Technician.  When I commanded a Guard battalion, I caught two guys who had forged entries onto their DD-214's.  I told the recruiter that the next guy I caught with a forged or altered DD-214, I would take to the local prosecutor and charge them criminally.  The warning must have worked, since I never got another.

Guy apparently in this situation (not my guy) is sitting in county thanks to the CGAux officer & cross-checking w/ CAP.

Lt. Special... Can he keep up logs?  Make simple entries onto forms without drooling on them?  If he gets training from Captain Grasscutter, could he be used for groundskeeping or janitorial duties?  Give him a pretentious title, like "Facility Officer" or something.  Can he run a copier?  If he can't handle any of those simple tasks, you'll just have to take the loss and send him to Wing as the Chief of Staff.

Yeah the Wing Chief of Staff was one of my first Sq CCs at this particular Sq, so extra funny.

No I can find some things for him to do. My main concern is separating him from cadets mostly for good order & discipline (can't have him being a mascot), but also to avoid the interruptions & occasional safety issues. Separate & task with simple jobs. That's the plan.