Culling the uniform manual...

[ZigZag911]

Here's a radical thought:

1) eliminate USAF style uniform (including the "TPU" variant) for all senior members.
    Suddenly USAF will focus more on our capabilities than our appearance being confused with theirs

2) Replace USAF for adults with a more professional looking Corporate uniform....my suggestion is khaki, but perhaps we could do something in gray.....shirt with epaulets, slacks, overseas cap, optional dress jacket (also w. epaulets)

3) Let cadets keep USAF style dress/service uniform a la JROTC

4) EVERYBODY out of ABUs/BDUs or whatever, into a single tone (gray, navy blue, khaki...pick one) BDU style field uniform....we're not trying to camouflage, so why do it?

5) Pick a single color  (NOT used by AF) flight suit available in NOMEX

6) No more berets, scarves, aiguelettes, cords, sashes, bells, whistles EXCEPT for Honor Guards

7) Field uniform -- one set wings, one ES qual badge, US flag, name tape, CAP tape, blue embroidered grade (metal on caps!)

8) Flight suits --embroidered blue grade, leather name/aero rating patch, US flag

Too radical a plan to even be considered...I'd prepare for a flaming. 

Why?...because you are asking unpaid members to trash maybe thousands of dollars worth of things they already have and replace it with stuff they will find offensive.  It would be viewed as distancing ourselves from the USAF.

Disabled smileys - MIKE

Flame away, folks, I've been singed by experts for years!

I'm not looking to distance us from the AF, trying to remove a serious area of contention (with all due respect to DNall, my experience has been that USAF gets really uptight about seniors' appearance....understandably, from their perspective.

Speaking of offensive, i wonder what USAF REALLY thinks of TPU?? Do they consider it an end run around their wishes?  A series of legalistic loopholes skating right up to the edge of what we can get away with?

On a more practical note, we would, of course, phase in the changeover through a period of several years....eventually most of us need to replace clothes, including uniform items, due to wear & tear!

Disabled smileys - MIKE

[ZigZag911]

Too radical a plan to even be considered...I'd prepare for a flaming.

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Why?...because you are asking unpaid members to trash maybe thousands of dollars worth of things they already have and replace it with stuff they will find offensive.  It would be viewed as distancing ourselves from the USAF.

Word!

You should all feel perfectly free to disagree with me or anyone else.

Some reasons, however, would really contribute to keeping the conversation going.

[Pylon]

Some reasons, however, would really contribute to keeping the conversation going.

I think substantial cost to be bore by the individual members' wallets I think is a pretty good reason to start with.  If I can get away with not buying anything new for my uniforms in the next few years, I'll be happy.

[ZigZag911]

Some reasons, however, would really contribute to keeping the conversation going.

I think substantial cost to be bore by the individual members' wallets I think is a pretty good reason to start with.  If I can get away with not buying anything new for my uniforms in the next few years, I'll be happy.

Agreed....I'm talking abojut a gradual phase in.

[Guardrail]

Flame away, folks, I've been singed by experts for years!

I'm not looking to distance us from the AF, trying to remove a serious area of contention (with all due respect to DNall, my experience has been that USAF gets really uptight about seniors' appearance....understandably, from their perspective.

True, but I think getting rid of the BDU's and all AF style uniforms would only make the Air Force more annoyed.  It wasn't easy for CAP to earn AF approval to wear their uniforms, and getting rid of them in favor of all the CAP distinctive uniforms would, in the public view, distance CAP further from the Air Force.

Personally, I think it would be an idea worse than the TPU.  But that's just my opinion. 

Speaking of offensive, I wonder what USAF REALLY thinks of TPU?? Do they consider it an end run around their wishes?  A series of legalistic loopholes skating right up to the edge of what we can get away with?

I think the Air Force views the TPU as a slap in the face.  Think about it: it has everything that is not allowed on the AF style uniforms for CAP... Metal rank insignia... silver sleeve braid... AF shoulder marks... this is clearly someone's way of getting back at the Air Force. 

And it also violates both the U.S.C. and UCMJ... it is forbidden to mix military uniform items with civilian clothing - period.

On a more practical note, we would, of course, phase in the changeover through a period of several years....eventually most of us need to replace clothes, including uniform items, due to wear & tear!

If your proposed changeover were to happen, this would be a good course of action.  Besides, the gradual phase-in is something CAP has perfected!   

[AlphaSigOU]

I think the Air Force views the TPU as a slap in the face.  Think about it: it has everything that is not allowed on the AF style uniforms for CAP... Metal rank insignia... silver sleeve braid... AF shoulder marks... this is clearly someone's way of getting back at the Air Force. 

And it also violates both the U.S.C. and UCMJ... it is forbidden to mix military uniform items with civilian clothing - period.

I don't think so. Had it really run afoul of the USAF powers-that-be, they woulda slapped CAP down hard for being so insolent as to mock the AF blues. (Maroon epaulets, anyone?)

Apparently, some items probably did give 'em heartburn (the U.S. cutouts and the nameplate, for example), which is why there were some quick changes made. The uniform's distinctive enough - even with the silly silver sleeve braid and double-breasted cut - that most - I hope - can tell the difference.

And I'd rather wear this combination instead of aviator grays.

[DNall]

It still needs some other changes (blue CAP slides for shirt & service coat) but otherwise there's little AF can do about it. You understand the maroon slides didn't happen overnight. That took a series of needling them on things before they were forced to give us a shove. I can tell you for a fact that the white/blue combination is not well recieved by rank-in-file, and that senior CAP-USAF people aren't happy abou tthis whole episode. Of course this is third person, but from a highly reliable source.

Anyway, I thought we weren't going to argue points. Just post up what you want cut (not what you want changed) and leave the thread for everyone else so we can compile a list.

[AlphaSigOU]

It still needs some other changes (blue CAP slides for shirt & service coat) but otherwise there's little AF can do about it. You understand the maroon slides didn't happen overnight. That took a series of needling them on things before they were forced to give us a shove. I can tell you for a fact that the white/blue combination is not well recieved by rank-in-file, and that senior CAP-USAF people aren't happy abou tthis whole episode. Of course this is third person, but from a highly reliable source.

Anyway, I thought we weren't going to argue points. Just post up what you want cut (not what you want changed) and leave the thread for everyone else so we can compile a list.

Exactimundo, Dennis... and yes, I agree with the blue CAP slides - I'm half-tempted to dig out a pair of old blue CAP slides when I promote to Captain and see what happens.

[Hawk200]

It still needs some other changes (blue CAP slides for shirt & service coat) but otherwise there's little AF can do about it. You understand the maroon slides didn't happen overnight. That took a series of needling them on things before they were forced to give us a shove. I can tell you for a fact that the white/blue combination is not well recieved by rank-in-file, and that senior CAP-USAF people aren't happy abou tthis whole episode. Of course this is third person, but from a highly reliable source.

Anyway, I thought we weren't going to argue points. Just post up what you want cut (not what you want changed) and leave the thread for everyone else so we can compile a list.

Exactimundo, Dennis... and yes, I agree with the blue CAP slides - I'm half-tempted to dig out a pair of old blue CAP slides when I promote to Captain and see what happens.

Personally, I like the gray slides. It does present a minor difference from the Air Force blues. And it looks better than the old maroon epaulettes and blue nametag. That looked kinda silly.

I think we should eliminate all blue slides for everybody, even cadet officers. And use the gray nametag for everyone as well. Standard nametags across the board (except for the CSM tags, they should stay as they are, maybe make them gray too). No reason to have three or four, when one or two will do.

[Major Carrales]

The USAF does not think as much about CAP uniforms as those that post here.  When I asked a question of several high ranking USAF-CAP officers, I was told they view it (CAP Distinctive) as "our thing" and, if they had an opinion at all about it, "how could they do this to themselves?"

Simply put, the USAF knows what we are.  They know how to use us and, what's more, how to use us to best suit their needs.  The "uniform crisis" is more the result of of "CAP Officer insecurity" than anything the USAF actually thinks of us.

Personnally, I think we are lucky to be allowed the wear of any AF style uniform.  Many of you dislike the "CAP Distinctives" but if you  really think about it.  They are closer to what an "auxiliary" might wear.  I am suprised indeed after much though that we are allowed to wear almost the identical uniform as the USAF (save for GREY shoulder marks, distinctive insignia and nameplates)

Youse guys should best be counting your blessings than counting reasons why it is bad.

[DNall]

You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.

[Major Carrales]

You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.

Yes, I'm quite sure.

[Guardrail]

Personally, I like the gray slides. It does present a minor difference from the Air Force blues. And it looks better than the old maroon epaulettes and blue nametag. That looked kinda silly.

I don't know if gray shoulder marks are a minor difference from the Air Force blues... gray doesn't go with blue in any way.  But I do agree that it looks better than the old maroon shoulder marks (aka "Berry Boards") mixed with the blue nametag.

I think we should eliminate all blue slides for everybody, even cadet officers. And use the gray nametag for everyone as well. Standard nametags across the board (except for the CSM tags, they should stay as they are, maybe make them gray too). No reason to have three or four, when one or two will do.

Why eliminate the blue slides and nametags for cadet officers?  Clearly the fact that they're still in existence shows how much more the Air Force cares about the cadet program than the senior program. 

I think we should standardize everyone to blue... blue nametags... blue shouldermarks... on the AF uniform.  For the grays, keep the gray epaulets and nametag.  It's the only uniform they go good with. 

[ZigZag911]

 

Speaking of offensive, I wonder what USAF REALLY thinks of TPU?? Do they consider it an end run around their wishes?  A series of legalistic loopholes skating right up to the edge of what we can get away with?

I think the Air Force views the TPU as a slap in the face.  Think about it: it has everything that is not allowed on the AF style uniforms for CAP... Metal rank insignia... silver sleeve braid... AF shoulder marks... this is clearly someone's way of getting back at the Air Force. 

And it also violates both the U.S.C. and UCMJ... it is forbidden to mix military uniform items with civilian clothing - period.

And this is precisely my point...get the seniors OUT of AF uniform so this can never happen again!

Also, I have questioned the need for a non-combatant auxiliary to wear Battle Dress (now AF Combat) Uniforms since the day it replaced the old 'pickle suit' fatigues.

[ZigZag911]

You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.

Yes, I'm quite sure.

Clearly we're talking to different people....which makes sense, you're in Texas, I'm in NER....my sources tell a tale more like what DNall is hearing.....that this thing (TPU) could very well still come back to haunt CAP.

[MIKE]

Also, I have questioned the need for a non-combatant auxiliary to wear Battle Dress (now AF Combat) Uniforms since the day it replaced the old 'pickle suit' fatigues.

Airman Battle Uniform (ABU) ZigZag.  Not to be confused with the Army Combat Uniform (ACU).

[ZigZag911]

Also, I have questioned the need for a non-combatant auxiliary to wear Battle Dress (now AF Combat) Uniforms since the day it replaced the old 'pickle suit' fatigues.

Airman Battle Uniform (ABU) ZigZag.  Not to be confused with the Army Combat Uniform (ACU).

My mistake, sorry....bottom line, they're camouflage uniforms....in CAP's line of work, we want to be VISIBLE.

[PhotogPilot]

You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.

Please post a link or source for these published statements so we can evaluate them and make our own judgements as to their validity and relevence. 

[MIKE]

Not in this thread please.

[Guardrail]

ZigZag911 makes a good point about questioning the wearing of BDU's by CAP, the non-combatant civilian auxiliary of the Air Force.  There are 2 reasons why I believe we should do away with camouflage BDU's:

1. There is no need for camouflage in any of CAP's missions.

2. Camouflage is not ideal for SAR missions. 

The second point is especially true.  The first rule of emergency response is: don't become a victim.  Camouflage in the wrong setting can cause that to happen. 

People may argue that CAP should adopt camouflage to keep current with the Air Force, but the truth is, the Air Force needs it... CAP does not.