Idea: Junior Cadet Program

[Guardrail]

I've long thought of the idea of CAP having a junior cadet program, just like the Sea Cadets.  I think 12 is too young an age for cadets with cadet supervisors who are 17, 18, 19 and 20 years old in charge of them.  The age gap is just too big.   

Instead, I propose that CAP have 2 cadet programs: a Junior Cadet Program, and an Advanced Cadet Program.  The Junior Cadet Program would be for cadets ages 12-16, while the Advanced Cadet Program would be for cadets ages 17-20.  I think this would solve a lot of problems associated with the age gap in the CAP cadet program we currently have.

Any thoughts? 

[arajca]

A better deliniation would be middle school (6 - 8 grades) and high school (9 and up).

[BillB]

Not only has this been discussed recently, but it mirrors previous CAP program called the Eaglet Program. The Eaglet program was for 11 through 13 year olds and Eaglets wore a modified CAP uniform (AF blue shirt and blue jeans.) the only insignia if i remember correctly was a name tag that said CAP Eaglet and last name, plus Wing patch and ribbons. At one time or another there were three levels of the cadet program
Eaglet 11-13 year olds
Cadets 13-18
and Officer Training Corp for 18-21 year olds.
The training materials are available from CAP or AFIDL for the three levels now. But it was suggested that OTC members wear warrant officer metal grade (or sleeves) rather than flight officer grade.

[NIN]

I've long thought of the idea of CAP having a junior cadet program, just like the Sea Cadets.  I think 12 is too young an age for cadets with cadet supervisors who are 17, 18, 19 and 20 years old in charge of them.  The age gap is just too big.   

Instead, I propose that CAP have 2 cadet programs: a Junior Cadet Program, and an Advanced Cadet Program.  The Junior Cadet Program would be for cadets ages 12-16, while the Advanced Cadet Program would be for cadets ages 17-20.  I think this would solve a lot of problems associated with the age gap in the CAP cadet program we currently have.

Any thoughts? 

And you care about this how?

I'm serious: for a non-member, you sure have a lot of ideas, concepts, opinions, comments, etc...  If you're that highly motivated to effect the course of the organization, I suggest you rejoin. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air on an internet message board.

[Guardrail]

I've long thought of the idea of CAP having a junior cadet program, just like the Sea Cadets.  I think 12 is too young an age for cadets with cadet supervisors who are 17, 18, 19 and 20 years old in charge of them.  The age gap is just too big.   

Instead, I propose that CAP have 2 cadet programs: a Junior Cadet Program, and an Advanced Cadet Program.  The Junior Cadet Program would be for cadets ages 12-16, while the Advanced Cadet Program would be for cadets ages 17-20.  I think this would solve a lot of problems associated with the age gap in the CAP cadet program we currently have.

Any thoughts? 

And you care about this how?

I'm serious: for a non-member, you sure have a lot of ideas, concepts, opinions, comments, etc...  If you're that highly motivated to effect the course of the organization, I suggest you rejoin. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air on an internet message board.

Well sir, I joined CAP when I was 12 and stayed in until I was 21.  I chose not to re-join because I feel it's more important to focus on my education.  I also don't want to earn a commission in CAP until I earn my bachelor's degree and either commission in the AF or join my state's SDF (depending on my medical status... I may not be qualified to join the military).  If I can't join the military, I'll join the SDF. 

So with great respect sir, I don't think I'm blowing hot air on this board.  I care about a junior cadet program because I think it would work, and looking back, it would have benefited me more when I was a cadet.  There really is too much of an age gap in today's CAP cadet program.   

[DNall]

I was just talking today with some cadets about this issue. As an example, I got a 12yo C/2Lt & 3 SSgts in their fourth year of AFJROTC. It wouldbe an understatement to call that a challenge, even moreso when recruiting HS aged kids.

On one hand, a seperate program for middle school cadets (and I think that is the best way to break it down) would be able to address content at their age level. On the other hand, it's a whole seperate set of content & programs to run when we struggle mightly to take care of the one we have worth a crap. While there's merit there to be discussed, I tend to shy away form that idea.

As an alternative, and this one gets supported by a lot of the cadets I've mentioned it to, what if the progression were age linked at two stripes per year. In other words, a 12yo can promote to A1C then has to wait till their birthday to promote again, whereas a cadet that joins at 13 can promote to SSgt during that year. Again pros & cons, but that factors in maturity in a big way. How would yall feel about something like that?

[SAR-EMT1]

I would support the age link.

[Guardrail]

I was just talking today with some cadets about this issue. As an example, I got a 12yo C/2Lt & 3 SSgts in their fourth year of AFJROTC. It wouldbe an understatement to call that a challenge, even moreso when recruiting HS aged kids.

How is it possible to have a 12 yr. old C/2d Lt if the joining age is 12 and it takes at least 16 months to advance to phase II?

I agree that having a C/2d Lt younger than his/her cadet NCO's is a problem that must be dealt with.   

On one hand, a seperate program for middle school cadets (and I think that is the best way to break it down) would be able to address content at their age level. On the other hand, it's a whole seperate set of content & programs to run when we struggle mightly to take care of the one we have worth a crap. While there's merit there to be discussed, I tend to shy away form that idea.

I like the idea of a junior cadet program for middle school-aged cadets the best.  Sure it's hard work, but I think it's worth it.  Besides, CAP has already dumbed down the Aerospace curriculum for Phases I and II into something that only someone in middle school could appreciate.  For high schoolers, it's way too simple.  

As an alternative, and this one gets supported by a lot of the cadets I've mentioned it to, what if the progression were age linked at two stripes per year. In other words, a 12yo can promote to A1C then has to wait till their birthday to promote again, whereas a cadet that joins at 13 can promote to SSgt during that year. Again pros & cons, but that factors in maturity in a big way. How would yall feel about something like that?

I don't think that would work very well.  I'm a little confused.  If I read you right, if you could only promote at 2 stripes per year, then someone who joins at 18 could only make it to C/SSgt.  That doesn't sound very fair.  It would work fine for those who join at 12 and 13, but not for the older folks who join the cadet program.

I think a better deliniation for the cadet program would be to keep TIG the same and have a junior cadet program for those cadets who are in middle school and an advanced one for those in high school.  In other words, keep them separate but in the same unit.  Junior cadets have cadet leaders within their part of the program and advanced cadets  have cadet leaders in their part of the program.   

[SAR-EMT1]

No, what he is saying is: for every year past 12 add two promotions: ae a 12 year old can get up to A1C 
a 13 year old can promote to SSgt
a 14 y/o could go to Master Sgt. etc...

[BillB]

The biggest problem facing cadets is the program manuals are written for 11-13 or 14 year olds. Older cadets get bored and drop from the program as shown by exit interviews. You'll find that limiting promotions to age will be a disaster in that the maturity levels of cadets varies. Take two 14 yearolds and you'll find one is ready to be a cadet officer, the other may not be.  I've seen 15 year old C/2Lt that were more mature than a 15 year old C/LtCol. At the same time I've seen 17 year old cadets that were less mature than many 15 year olds.
Peer groups tend to relate to each other and the 16 year olds can't relate to the 11 year old peer group. So Guardrails concept should work by splitting the cadet program into various age groups such as has been done by CAP over the years.
The two stripes per year is fine for 12 year olds but a 16 year old that joins at the end of the year has two stripes while the cadet that joined at 12 is a CCMsgt. No 16 year old will respect a much younger cadet who outranks them and is less mature.

[SAR-EMT1]

OK, new question: when was the last time that the Cadet program was split between age groups?

[BillB]

To the best of my knowledge, the Eaglet program was during the 1960's. The OTC program was in the 60's and 70's.
There was a program in the 50's that split the cadet program but it only lasted a year

[Pylon]

Speaking from the position of a Deputy Commander for Cadets, and a former Group Cadet Programs Officer, I'm not seeing any issues with the age gap in my area.

The younger cadets have much to learn, and they do learn.  They fill out the squadrons and take on the lower positions of responsibility... Element Leaders, helping out staff members, etc.

As they grow older, learn more (both in a CAP context and an educational/real-world context), they take on higher positions of responsibility.  As the cadets near 18, 19, and 20 years old, I consider them to be capable leaders - much like I would treat most any young senior member.  These cadets are helpful for mentoring the younger cadets, assisting the senior members with the implementation and support of the cadet program, etc.

The fact is that an older cadet corps would have a hard time surviving.  Many of the older cadets simply can't dedicate a lot of time to CAP, due to school, extracurricular activities, going off to college, joining the military, or working.  As the cadets get older, more and more of them do these things -- things all young people do when they grow up.    But lucky for us, the way our program is structured, as these older cadets have less and less time to commit, it allows the growing and up-and-coming cadet leaders to slowly take their places.  When the older cadets do have time, we use them as mentors, assistant staff members, and whatever else they can fill in as. 

It works, and probably not by coincidence.

We don't need one more solution in search of a problem.

But hey -- what did Jack Sorenson know after all.   

[RiverAux]

I think it is very difficult to recruit "older" cadets into the program primarily because they soon realize that they would be outranked by kids several years their junior and this is a VERY big deal when you're in that age class. 

The problem is that most squadrons are too small in the first place and further splitting the cadets up into two separate groups would make running a cohesive program quite difficult. 

[Pylon]

The problem is that most squadrons are too small in the first place and further splitting the cadets up into two separate groups would make running a cohesive program quite difficult. 

That's the second point I wanted to make.  Bingo! 

In my case, running two programs would not be "quite difficult" --- rather it would likely mean "program closed, everybody go home."   

[RiverAux]

What do you know, the latest issue of the Volunteer (available for download http://www.cap.gov/visitors//news/civil_air_patrol_volunteer/downloads/ has an article highlighting a kindergarten through 5th grade CAP program "pre-cadet school program" in Philadelphia. 

[ZigZag911]

The age separation question  has been a concern for years; I think it needs to be done.

Perhaps allow the junior cadets to earn the Phase 1 achievements (but not the grades); then two months after joining the high school age program, they can get whatever they have earned, up to Senior Airman.

Might result in some 14 year old SSgts....but would almost guarantee no Mitchells much before sophomore year of HS, Spaatzes not happening before senior year (I'm estimating, haven't done the math).

The leadership might come from among the parents, with minimal support from the parent squadron (I think these junior units should be 'flights')

[CAP428]

In the 9 months I have been in CAP so far, I have yet to have problems with the age gap.  I joined the cadet program fairly late (17) and have spent this past year with younger people commanding me.  It really is not a big deal.  In fact, one could argue in favor of such a situation possibly arising due to the fact that it more closely mirrors real life where you could have a boss that is much younger than you, but possibly is more experienced that you have to deal with reporting to.  It provides experience in such real-life situations to cadets.

Not to mention the fact that it can be a self-esteem booster.  Generally society is structured around the idea that the older you are, the more you know/can do and the younger you are, the less you know/can do.  While for some things this is true because of differing levels of life experience, in other situations it is not true.  Having a younger cadet command older but lower-ranking cadets gives them self-confidence and the knowledge that, though they are younger, they can be more experienced at something than an older person can be.

I do not see a strong enough problem to restructure anything.  I am a proponent of a more laissez-faire approach of not fixing something unless it is quite broken.

[DNall]

How is it possible to have a 12 yr. old C/2d Lt if the joining age is 12 and it takes at least 16 months to advance to phase II?

OR sixth grade & he's homeschool to boot. I think we got a 14yo Spaatz running around too. That's pretty stupid. Why would you stay in the program after that for four more years?

I like the idea of a junior cadet program for middle school-aged cadets the best.  Sure it's hard work, but I think it's worth it.  Besides, CAP has already dumbed down the Aerospace curriculum for Phases I and II into something that only someone in middle school could appreciate.  For high schoolers, it's way too simple. 

More than hard work, I think a seperate program becomes unamangeable from a practical execution stand point. We already turn to cadets leading the way on things cause there's not enough adult leadership or support. And we can't always support all our events cause we can't even get adults out to chaperon. Plus most Sqs get 10-12 cadets actively particpating. Split the numbers in half & multiply the work times two w/o increasing personnel that's what you're saying.  

As an alternative, and this one gets supported by a lot of the cadets I've mentioned it to, what if the progression were age linked at two stripes per year. In other words, a 12yo can promote to A1C then has to wait till their birthday to promote again, whereas a cadet that joins at 13 can promote to SSgt during that year. Again pros & cons, but that factors in maturity in a big way. How would yall feel about something like that?

I don't think that would work very well.  I'm a little confused.  If I read you right, if you could only promote at 2 stripes per year, then someone who joins at 18 could only make it to C/SSgt.  That doesn't sound very fair.  It would work fine for those who join at 12 and 13, but not for the older folks who join the cadet program.

No no no, I'm sorry, let me try that again...
Read this Close
12yo maxes out at A1C
13yo maxes out at SSgt
14yo maxes out at MSgt
15yo maxes out at CMSgt
16yo maxes out at 1Lt
17yo maxes out at Maj
18yo maxes out at Col

TIG is still 2mos & you can advance as many grades per year as possible, but cap out based on age. If you join at 18 w/ four years of ROTC so you can do the once a month thing, then you can make Captain or so just based the TIG limitations, the above doesn't restrict you at all. On the other hand if you join at 14 you can promote as normal only to MSgt, then you're frozen till your birthday.

Does that make more sense? You can still amp up the requirements & academic content as you move up in grade because you know there's a minimum age to hold that grade. It's still very possible for a younger cadet with more experience to command an older one that joined later, BUT it reduces the dramatic seperation that can occur now to teh detriment of the program. It also addresses maturity in promotions in a fair objective way rather than leaving it to be pencil whipped right on by.

What do you know, the latest issue of the Volunteer (available for download http://www.cap.gov/visitors//news/civil_air_patrol_volunteer/downloads/ has an article highlighting a kindergarten through 5th grade CAP program "pre-cadet school program" in Philadelphia. 

Oh dear God!!! !2 is already way too young. It should have never let middle schoolers in. That was desperation of a troubled program that wasn't (and isn't) being consistently executed by quality personnel (adults) trained to the task that among other things results in terrible recruiting & retention.

[BillB]

Of course you could go back to the original CAP Cadet program. And leave promotions up to the Squadron Commander without respect to how many achievements have been completed. The cadet would still earn the ribbon but NOT the promotion. Or the Commander could promote up to C/CMSgt even if the cadet has only completed 2-3 achievements. Promotions based on either duty assignment for the cadet or the really gung-ho cadets could earn promotions. All that changes when the cadet earns the Mitchell but Squadron Commanders could promote up to C/Maj again depending on duty asignment. (C/LtCol and C/Col reserved for Earhart or Spaatz)
Jack Sorensen told me once, sitting at the O-club at Maxwell, he made a mistake by tieing promotions to achiecvements. But he said it was to late to change it.