ABU and AFJROTC

[That Anonymous Guy]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

[RADIOMAN015]

It seems like this past often mentioned "two year moratorium" was ... 4 years ago.

Now it's at least a couple more years from now, the way Ned comes off.

The "2 year moratorium" was imposed by the NB.  They can make changes that do not require AF approval at any time, but they have decided not to make any changes until they have received and considered the report of the NUC during the Baltimore NB meeting.

The point concering ABUs that I have been trying to make is that - should the NB decide to request ABUs - that they will start the process at the NB meeting in August.  We will then need several weeks or months for the staff to put the package together and submit it through CAP-USAF.  And given the multiple levels of analysis and approvals within the USAF, it is almost certain that their portion will take many months.  So my personal guess is that we will not see ABUs until mid to late 2013 at the earliest.

But the NB could (and probably will) make changes to our uniforms that do not require AF approval.  Such changes could in theory become effective as soon as staff can publish an ICL.

Or a revised 39-1.   

Of course there's likely a fair amount of adults who join CAP so they can "play military dress up", so there's pressure to get into the latest Air Force Uniforms including the ABU's.  (and of course one has to wonder how this would affect the current green military flight suits, would that change also?)

In contrast, CAP also is trying to gear up its' "branding" marketing efforts and our current options for "field uniforms" dilutes that consistent marketing presentation to the general public, when contrasted with other 'civilian' (AFI 10-2701, chapter 1) disaster relief/support organizations.    I think we need a single field uniform style that EVERYONE CAN WEAR and is cost effective for all including the outer wear for proper protection from the weather elements. 

Furthermore, just the cost to the member (both cadet & senior) in order to completely comply with the military ABU style is significant.     IF adopted hopefully it will be a three to four year transition period (not just two years  )

Got to wonder IF CAP HQ did a survey on changes to the entire membership, what the result would be  Of course here on CAPTALK this is always a "hot button issue" :angel:
RM   
   

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Of course there's likely a fair amount of adults who join CAP so they can "play military dress up", so there's pressure to get into the latest Air Force Uniforms including the ABU's

It there a way to block certain people's posts from popping up on my screen?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Of course there's likely a fair amount of adults who join CAP so they can "play military dress up", so there's pressure to get into the latest Air Force Uniforms including the ABU's. 

I would really like to see your hard, irrefutable data on that, not just on your WAG's and assumptions.

[RogueLeader]

In contrast, CAP also is trying to gear up its' "branding" marketing efforts and our current options for "field uniforms" dilutes that consistent marketing presentation to the general public, when contrasted with other 'civilian' (AFI 10-2701, chapter 1) disaster relief/support organizations.    I think we need a single field uniform style that EVERYONE CAN WEAR and is cost effective for all including the outer wear for proper protection from the weather elements. 

Can wear, or WILL wear?  Everyone can wear the bbdu.  Not everyone will.

[Brad]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

Incorrect, trust your AFIs and CAP Regulations, not some random JROTC cadet. AFJROTC and CAP are under two completely different groups. AFJROTC is directly connected to the USAF chain of command, under Air University, whereas CAP has its own distinct organization that has a cross-over through CAP-USAF. Granted CAP-USAF is under Air University as well, but there is no direct link between the CAP chain of command and the CAP-USAF level, i.e. the National Commander does not report to CAP-USAF as his superior officer.

[lordmonar]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

Incorrect, trust your AFIs and CAP Regulations, not some random JROTC cadet. AFJROTC and CAP are under two completely different groups. AFJROTC is directly connected to the USAF chain of command, under Air University, whereas CAP has its own distinct organization that has a cross-over through CAP-USAF. Granted CAP-USAF is under Air University as well, but there is no direct link between the CAP chain of command and the CAP-USAF level, i.e. the National Commander does not report to CAP-USAF as his superior officer.

AFJROTC and CAP-USAF belong to the same officer at AETC.....so in a way.....yes they are part of each other.

Just like saying the Army and the USAF are part of each other because they are both DoD.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

A bit like saying that the Marines are part of the Navy...just don't say it to a Marine!

[Brad]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

Incorrect, trust your AFIs and CAP Regulations, not some random JROTC cadet. AFJROTC and CAP are under two completely different groups. AFJROTC is directly connected to the USAF chain of command, under Air University, whereas CAP has its own distinct organization that has a cross-over through CAP-USAF. Granted CAP-USAF is under Air University as well, but there is no direct link between the CAP chain of command and the CAP-USAF level, i.e. the National Commander does not report to CAP-USAF as his superior officer.

AFJROTC and CAP-USAF belong to the same officer at AETC.....so in a way.....yes they are part of each other.

Just like saying the Army and the USAF are part of each other because they are both DoD.

Well yes, I knew that much. What I was getting at was that there is no direct chain of command operations level that links the CAP/CC to the AF side, it is all administrative only.

[flyingscotsman]

Of course there's likely a fair amount of adults who join CAP so they can "play military dress up", so there's pressure to get into the latest Air Force Uniforms including the ABU's. 

I would really like to see your hard, irrefutable data on that, not just on your WAG's and assumptions.

To be fair, he did say "likely a fair amount" which does suggest an opinion. Who here hasn't encountered at least a few of their SM's who give the strong impression they are more interested in playing "military dress up" though? Just because you can't provide hard & irrefutable data doesn't necesarily make it a WAG or an assumption when you have first hand experience with a small sample of those individuals. I'm sure nobody is suggesting ALL or even MOST of our fellow SMs are that way.

[caphornbuckle]

A bit like saying that the Marines are part of the Navy...just don't say it to a Marine!

I was told by a Marine that they consider themselves the "Men's Department" when that is mentioned.

[lordmonar]

This has been flogged to death...but it is an unfortunate, if unspoken, truism that between CAP and AFJROTC, AFJROTC is the favoured son.

AFJROTC is an actual part of the Air Force. CAP is a civilian auxiliary and we're also a public corperation.

I was talking to a Jrotc kid who told me CAP is part of the AFJROTC

Incorrect, trust your AFIs and CAP Regulations, not some random JROTC cadet. AFJROTC and CAP are under two completely different groups. AFJROTC is directly connected to the USAF chain of command, under Air University, whereas CAP has its own distinct organization that has a cross-over through CAP-USAF. Granted CAP-USAF is under Air University as well, but there is no direct link between the CAP chain of command and the CAP-USAF level, i.e. the National Commander does not report to CAP-USAF as his superior officer.

AFJROTC and CAP-USAF belong to the same officer at AETC.....so in a way.....yes they are part of each other.

Just like saying the Army and the USAF are part of each other because they are both DoD.

Well yes, I knew that much. What I was getting at was that there is no direct chain of command operations level that links the CAP/CC to the AF side, it is all administrative only.

There is not one on the AFJROTC side either....each unit "belongs" to the school district.  The USAF only controls the curriculm and has "first" pass okay on any instructor applicants.

[SARDOC]

A bit like saying that the Marines are part of the Navy...just don't say it to a Marine!

I was told by a Marine that they consider themselves the "Men's Department" when that is mentioned.

The old Marine recruiting slogan was they were "looking for a few good men"...I always told them they already had them...They were called Navy Corpsman.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The old Marine recruiting slogan was they were "looking for a few good men"...I always told them they already had them...They were called Navy Corpsman.

I knew one of those once...quite a guy; did a lot of patching up of wounded Marines in Vietnam.  I think he retired as a CWO-2 or 3.  Don't they wear Marine uniforms with Navy insignia?

Bringing the thread (hopefully) back 'round to uniforms again...

There's a local Navy Sea Cadet unit that is pretty strong member-wise and it seems like they do a lot with some of the local Coast Guard.  I see them around now and again.  They look a lot more like the Navy (both adults and cadets) than we ever have looked like the AF.  There seems to be a lot less gastrointestinal turmoil among them about uniforms.  They just take the Navy uniform, slap an identifier on the arm (and different rank insignia for cadets) and a different cap device and, hey, presto, good to go.



It doesn't seem like the Navy rides herd on them watching for the slightest uniform boo-boo...nor does it seem they have a sector of their membership howling about "distinctiveness."

[SarDragon]

And that's the difference between the Navy and the Air Force. They are entirely different cultures, and have been since 1947. I spent 3 years stationed on an overseas air base, and it was scary, and comical, to watch the different ways the two services went about the same tasks.

[bosshawk]

Especially since both services claimed to use the English language as a common denominator.

[Eclipse]

Cadet-centric / cadet-only programs may look like CAP, but in fact they are different paradigms as they do not have adult programs, nor operational situations where members may be in command of military personnel and resources.  That is not the whole puzzle, but it's a significant part of the issue with CAP uniforms.

[SARDOC]

The old Marine recruiting slogan was they were "looking for a few good men"...I always told them they already had them...They were called Navy Corpsman.

I knew one of those once...quite a guy; did a lot of patching up of wounded Marines in Vietnam.  I think he retired as a CWO-2 or 3.  Don't they wear Marine uniforms with Navy insignia?

Bringing the thread (hopefully) back 'round to uniforms again...

There's a local Navy Sea Cadet unit that is pretty strong member-wise and it seems like they do a lot with some of the local Coast Guard.  I see them around now and again.  They look a lot more like the Navy (both adults and cadets) than we ever have looked like the AF.  There seems to be a lot less gastrointestinal turmoil among them about uniforms.  They just take the Navy uniform, slap an identifier on the arm (and different rank insignia for cadets) and a different cap device and, hey, presto, good to go.



It doesn't seem like the Navy rides herd on them watching for the slightest uniform boo-boo...nor does it seem they have a sector of their membership howling about "distinctiveness."

Navy Corpsman, Medical and Religious Personnel assigned to Marine Units do indeed wear Marine Uniforms with the exception of the Dress Blues if they meet Marine Corps standards, including Height and weight and pass the Marine Corps PFT.

Our Cadet Program up until they turn 18 years old can wear the AF style uniform even if they don't meet Height Weight standards.  The only issue is our adult membership must meet CAP H/W just like the Sea Cadet Adult members must meet H/W standards as well in order to wear the navy style uniform or they get to wear a Golf Shirt "Equivalent"

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cadet-centric / cadet-only programs may look like CAP, but in fact they are different paradigms as they do not have adult programs, nor operational situations where members may be in command of military personnel and resources.  That is not the whole puzzle, but it's a significant part of the issue with CAP uniforms.

Hmm?

Where would there be an operational situation where we would be in command of military personnel and resources?

As some take such great pains to remind us, we are not military and do not have command authority.

The NSCC has "adult volunteers," though I know they don't have a semi-separate existence like we do.

[bosshawk]

Heaven forbid that the Sea Cadet SMs have a golf shirt uniform to wear!!!!!!  That guarantees that certain CT members will never consider joining the Sea Cadets.