boots on sarex or live mission

[SarDragon]

Here's the original post. By its nature, I'm guessing that it applies to the CAP arena.

do i have to wear my black reg boots if my sage gren altama's are much more comfortable and suited for the task?

Your example, as stated and acknowledged, was in the ROTC arena, and a total red wheel, non sequitur.

Regardless of anything else that's been said, green suede boots are not authorized in CAP. Trying to stray from that fact just confuses the issue. The pig is not going to sing, no matter how good a teacher you are.

[bflynn]

You guys are a trip.  Scary, but a trip.

Just curious, what do you guys do at work?  I mean, when someone doesn't wipe up the microwave, do you tell them to go home and come back when they follow the rules?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You know what I do for a living? I go to school, not by choice, by necessity. I have to go to school so that I can get a job in the civilian world because I didn't follow one little rule in the Army and I am now disabled because of it. I didn't wear eye protection for about five minutes while on a mission and got busted in the eye, and now that I am disabled from it I can't do what I really love, and I have to live in this world because I am blind in one eye.

Long story short... I didn't follow a rule for five minutes and it changed my world forver. Totally different you say? Yes but no, it was a different world different rule, but it was still a rule that I didn't follow and it had consequences just as wearing a different pair of boots does.

[bflynn]

I am now disabled because of it.

I'm sorry for your pain.

[abdsp51]

The OP asked if it was allowed and was told no he/she could not wear said boots.  Honestly suede does not hold up well in the field for continued use and I can't think of any region that it would be more mission effective outside of the desert.  Green jungle boots and green suede are two separate things.  Is suede more comfy and less mx sure with the right companies but the current manual does not allow for suede to be worn in any circumstance. 

[Extremepredjudice]

As several people on here have already stated, if it is not in CAPM 39-1, then you cannot wear it. Even if it is related to a mission. As much as a boonie hat would protect you more from the sun than a PC, I wear the PC. Why? Because that it is what is authorized, simple as that. It's called a UNIFORM for a reason you know...
Just my opinion of course.

Thread derail:
Just wondering, how would you tell your squadron commander they aren't authorized and he shouldn't tell cadets to bring them to our upcoming bivouac.

[davidsinn]

As several people on here have already stated, if it is not in CAPM 39-1, then you cannot wear it. Even if it is related to a mission. As much as a boonie hat would protect you more from the sun than a PC, I wear the PC. Why? Because that it is what is authorized, simple as that. It's called a UNIFORM for a reason you know...
Just my opinion of course.

Thread derail:
Just wondering, how would you tell your squadron commander they aren't authorized and he shouldn't tell cadets to bring them to our upcoming bivouac.

Politely and privately. Print out a page from 39-1 and keep it in your pocket to cite if need be.

[ol'fido]

I'm gonna come down somewhere in the middle on this one. Down in my part of the world you can wear black field boots most of the time. However, given the nature of the terrain in a great part of the area with low lying areas and flood plains, I would advocate having a pair of knee high muck boots in your GT vehicle and change into them before leaving the vehicle if the terrain conditions call for it. I consider these SAFETY equipment however. A couple of you have been down my way and know how much standing water is around in  the low lying areas this time of year. Good goose and duck hunting!

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Yes, and I do agree with that, but that is considered safety gear, and I don't think there are many that would have a problem with wearing those kind of boots especially only where they are needed and knowing that they won't be worn full time, only where it is very flooded. Totally safety oriented. Not something that you want to wear for the entire duration of the mission.

[Eclipse]

Just wondering, how would you tell your squadron commander they aren't authorized and he shouldn't tell cadets to bring them to our upcoming bivouac.

Nearly every major activity announcement in my wing, ES, CP, whatever, includes something like this:

"Reminder:
Uniforms must be 100% correct, including grooming and weight standards where applicable.  Members who report with uniform issues that cannot be corrected on the spot will not be allowed to participate."

As to the waders, etc., as mentioned, that's equipment necessary for the mission - no issue there.  But if a member suggested they could wear them
into the ICP as an MSA, or out on a dusty ramp because they didn't want to ruin they "good" boots.  No.

[SarDragon]

You guys are a trip.  Scary, but a trip.

Just curious, what do you guys do at work?  I mean, when someone doesn't wipe up the microwave, do you tell them to go home and come back when they follow the rules?

No, but I'll restrict their use of the oven until they do decide to clean up after themselves. The last place I worked at had a sign, "Your mother doesn't work here. Clean up your own mess."

[bflynn]

Yeah?  Is it your microwave?

I've got two last points to reiterate -

1) Rules are guidelines that should be normally followed.  Exceptions are not the norm.  The OP should buy some regulation black boots if he can.

2) Exceptional circumstances dictate exceptions to rules.  In every military organization in the world, that is the understood to be within the authority of the on scene commander.

I wonder at how many members strict adherence to the rules has cost CAP.

[abdsp51]

Yeah?  Is it your microwave?

I've got two last points to reiterate -

1) Rules are guidelines that should be normally followed.  Exceptions are not the norm.  The OP should buy some regulation black boots if he can.

2) Exceptional circumstances dictate exceptions to rules.  In every military organization in the world, that is the understood to be within the authority of the on scene commander.

I wonder at how many members strict adherence to the rules has cost CAP.

Maybe in the Army but in the AF our rules general have "Compliance with this publication is mandatory#.  Laws are also rules and those are by far from guidelines.

[jeders]

2) Exceptional circumstances dictate exceptions to rules.  In every military organization in the world, that is the understood to be within the authority of the on scene commander.

Yes, absolutely, however, "because I don't want to get my boots dirty," is not an exceptional circumstance.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

2) Exceptional circumstances dictate exceptions to rules.  In every military organization in the world, that is the understood to be within the authority of the on scene commander.

Yes, absolutely, however, "because I don't want to get my boots dirty," is not an exceptional circumstance.

No, but wearing a pair of wading boots should be when you are in high water. If nothing else, just get yourself a pair of black overboots. Almost any surplus store has them, and they would be a great way to keep your legs dry and have better traction when tredging through the nastiness.

Let's stop beating a dead horse, I don't think anyone has advocated wearing tan boots is okay for a while now.

Wear some hefty boots for flooded areas, otherwise keep your regulation boots on and leave everything else at home.

[bflynn]

I think you missed the point of my story.

My ROTC CO made a decision based on his command authority to deviate from rules.  He knew that I would be ineffective in the field because he was giving conflicting priorities to me - to maintain clean boots for every day wear and to wear black boots in the field.

But that story was told because of the statement "there is never a time when green boots are better than black boots".  So, I shared a time in my past when it was.  It wasn't a story about not following rules just because you don't want to.

From what I hear here, people claim CAP field commanders do not have command authority to deviate from the rules ever.  I reject that as false because certainly there are times when it becomes necessary to deviate.  I'll give avoidance of further injuries as a reason why this might be necessary.

I'm sure there are still people who will say that field commanders may NOT deviate from the rules under any circumstances and they will continue to not convince me.

But it isn't really that important because rules are being followed as they should be. 

[Eclipse]

I wonder at how many members strict adherence to the rules has cost CAP.

The cost in members is by a long shot less than the cost in reputation, spirit, and professionalism a few people who "know better" cost CAP every day.

Organizational rules and guidelines are designed to provide a baseline for performance to relieve people from having to make those trivial decisions over and over. "Someone" is the organization is charged with the authority to "write it down", and then no one as to think about that again.

My ROTC CO made a decision based on his command authority to deviate from rules.  He knew that I would be ineffective in the field because he was giving conflicting priorities to me - to maintain clean boots for every day wear and to wear black boots in the field.

Did you consider at all how disrespectful it is to a commander's real responsibilities that he was forced to deal with your personal drama regarding boots?  The fact that he allowed you to participate is irrelevant and doesn't justify your position.  Multiply that times 100 other people under his command who also have some "critical issue" that distracts him from his real duties, and perhaps you will see the problem.

You were also not given "conflicting priorities" - millions of people worldwide have to wear the same boots every day, and are expected to show up for their shift with clean boots.  The range is soldier to waste hauler.  Soldiers have been trucking through swamps for centuries and
still shining their boots at first opportunity.

[bflynn]

The cost in members is by a Did you consider at all how disrespectful it is to a commander's real responsibilities that he was forced to deal with your personal drama regarding boots? 

As a leader every day in life, I don't consider it disrespectful at all for one of my direct reports to have a personal issue.  It's called life and we deal with it every day.

If I only accepted those who perfectly fit my preconceptions of what they should be, I'd be alone on my team.

Personally, I find it disrespectful that you'd classify my problem as "personal drama".  You really don't know enough about it.  It was a five sentence conversation, it was hardly drama.

[abdsp51]

You're story says green jungle boots, the op asked about suede sage boots two different types.  Ones authorized the other isn't.

[jeders]

You're story says green jungle boots, the op asked about suede sage boots two different types.  Ones authorized the other isn't.

Yes, this. I think where we're getting ourselves wrapped around the axle is that bflynn took green boots to mean standard boots that have a green non leather panel on the sides. The part about green boots not being better than black boots is talking about sage green suede boots which do not typically have the same resiliency as black smooth leather boots.

bflynn, when did you go through ROTC? My guess is that it was before the AF started using the green suede boots.